Asymmetrical Information

I've got 2 years to go on my Cabrio lease and I've no intention to buy another German car (even though I'm mostly German). The car runs great, but for the reasons you mentioned, the cognitive dissonance would be too much.

After the recent actions of France/Germany in world events, I decided to boycott everything Franco-Prussian. Surprisingly, they really don't produce anything I really need, unless you consider vodka (Grey Goose) to be a need, and even then Tito's (from Texas I think) is just as good.

Some of us do live in that alternative universe where imports have given ourselves and our friends-and-neighbors more trouble than domestics.

If you're not overly concerned with either manual transmission or social profile, go for a Chrysler minivan. My old man swears by them and routinely busts 100,000; he drove a 1991 Dodge to 173,000 and when he traded it in, it still could have commuted to the Moon.

Fortunately, Pilsner Urquell comes from Czechoslovakia. Lexus makes some great cars, but I'm itching to get behind the wheel of the new Mercury that has police style suspension and 300 hp engine.

I'm mostly German too. I still live in the same town that most of my ancestors came to from Europe. This weekend I plan on visiting their graves and silently thanking them for GETTING THE HELL OUT.

I've owned two German cars and been happy with them, but my last four have been Japanese and the reliability has been better. I'm going to be in the market soon, and was leaning toward another Japanese car, but this helps cement the decision.

Buy a Honda.

I own a Lexus GS400 now. It has been very reliable. I'm currently leaning towards the LS430.

Virginia, my wife owns a Honda. It's been superb.

Second the Chrysler motion. My '85 Caravan got to 240,000 before wearing out.

One issue I have with Hondas is they are rather...small. Even the newer ones give me a touch of claustrophobia and I'm not really that tall. My roommate says he just doesn't fit, even in the new accords.

If you're looking at making a small statement of approval/disapproval, you also could look at Jaguar. The new S-types look pretty nice.

I can also say that the new Mazda 6's have a pretty good standard sound system and the road noise is pretty low. Having radio controls on the wheel is kinda nice, too.

Isn't Chrysler a German company now? Or did
Dodge buy Mercedes?

No. Absolutely do NOT buy a Honda. I was recently test driving cars, and Toyotas absolutely spit on Hondas. They have lots more power, even the 4 cylinders, and run much more quietly.

My next car will probably be a Toyota. I really couldn't pass up the 0% financing from Chrysler though...

I have you beat on the miles, Mr. Dreck...I got the car at the end of September, and I'm pushing 10,000 miles right now. No problems, yet.

We'll see how long that lasts.

Buy Korean! Hyundai is a great company, solid build quality, cheap, and fantastic warranty. And you're supporting a democracy threatened by communists to boot.

I drive an Elantra GT hatchback, and its just been a great car.

I still drive a 1984 Ford Taurus. It has been driven about 145,000 miles---and I see no reason why I shouldn’t be able to keep it going for another 50,000.

“...or Europe's ridiculous phobia about genetically engineered crops.”

It might also behoove one to mention that this ridiculous phobia is responsible for the deaths of perhaps millions of people. Why is this topic virtually ignored? These Europeans have a lot of blood on their hands.

Hondas are not what they used to be. My brother started as a motorcycle mechnaic but moved into cars when he became married with children. A very fastidious detail oriented guy who should have been working on much more expensive vehicles with the attendant rewards but he was well established in the Honda factory certification track.

He has nothing but praise for the machines up until the late 90's but found the more recent models much more difficult to service and more likely to need it. Not a good combination. That, coupled with his arthritis has lead him to leave the trade entirely.

There are a lot of great American and British beers out there, but Paulaner and Hacker Pschoor are in a class by themselves. As for the vodka, I guess I'll have to take a step back and go with the Stoli or the Absolut. It's not Grey Goose, but it's the sacrifice I'm willing to make for my country. *grin*

As for the Daimler-Chrysler merger, it was supposed to be a "merger of equals". However, it's starting to emerge that really it was Chrysler that was purchased. Oh, and Jaguar is owned by Ford now. So buying a Jag would be supporting America.

What's the betting that it will take me longer than ten minutes, google and phrases like "Jose Bove", "Coca Cola" and "boycott" to come up with a quote that will make at least one or two people posting on this thread look just a little bit silly and hypocritical?

Whereas looking silly and hypocritical just comes naturally to others without alteration....

Voting with your checkbook is probably the most effective way of being heard. Too bad Pakistan isn't exporting anything we can boycott. Has anybody ever heard anything bad about Toyotas?

I worked for an American company bought by a German company. One of the first things the new German president said was that German engineers were better than American engineers. After working with the German stuff for a while our American engineers' opinion was "No, they're not."

As to France, why doesn't anyone mention their unilateral, violent and non-UN-supported intervention in the Ivory Coast? What a bunch of hypocrites! They act like they own half of Africa, because they used to, and no one calls them on it.

As to France, why doesn't anyone mention their unilateral, violent and non-UN-supported intervention in the Ivory Coast?

First things first. They've still yet to answer to their militarily-enacted regime change of Jerusalem in 1099. :-)

Seriously, though; one wonders how much of a stretch the dreaded "Blood for Oil" argument could be applied to the French, inasmuch they wish to hold their contracts with Saddam more than remain consistent in their ethical conduct (turning around and, say, intervening in the Ivory Coast).

Hypocrites, aye.

I've been contemplating a boycott of French and German products for a week or two now. The problem I face is -- I don't have a good idea which of the products I buy come from where. Sure, cars are easy, but once you start getting into things like electronics it gets harder.

Does anyone know of a website that tracks this sort of information?

Jose Bove, eh? Have you naughty boys been demolishing Mercedes dealerships and fields of genetically-modified Fahrvergnügen again?

When I suggested to Palo Alto's liberal city council, a body that went red during the Vietnam war and beat Berkeley to boycotting Myanamar, that we boycot slavery-picked chocolate, no response. I like my 8 year old Saturn.

Toyota. You can't kill 'em with a stick.

You want to boycott German- and French- made goods because they don't support the U.S. position of War with Iraq? Are you also going to ensure that all of the American products you buy weren't made by any of the 52% of American's who don't want war with Iraq unless it's backed by the U.N.

http://pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

'87 300SDL. Last forever, quiet inside, comfortable, and used, so the Kraut half of DaimlerChrysler won't get anything from the purchase. (Also thus pretty cheap, and while liable to need some work to get to like-new condition, you just saved 10-20k over a new large sedan from anyone else...)

Also, '87 was the last year before engine control went electronic, so Mere Mortals can maintain the damned things.

(If you must have new, Toyotas and their luxury line, the Lexus, are rock-solid vehicles, and not tained with Old Europe.)

>>Are you also going to ensure that all of the American products you buy weren't made by any of the 52% of American's who don't want war with Iraq unless it's backed by the U.N.

There's a big difference between U.S. citizens and foreign countries. The first vote, and therefore have a right and a duty to take part in the debate on U.S. policy; the second do not. I may disapprove in my own family of something my brother does, but I'm certainly not going to tolerate any criticism of him from outside the family--even from those I may consider my best friends.

Some of these boycotts are bordering on absurd; example, you buy a BMW Z3, you support factory workers in South Carolina. Some income does go to the German government via taxes, but then, some goes to the US government by the same route. The inverse is also true for many of the non-US brands that are now owned by Ford or GM. I fail to see the value of a national boycott when dealing with multinational corporations.

Regarding Chrysler, some of you folks must have gotten lucky picks. The company had some of the least-reliable automatic transmissions in the industry for a number of years, and I know of a couple Caravans that saw failure. My folks' own was starting to shift like a truck and probably getting close to tranny replacement, except a real truck (Toyota Tacoma) then rear-ended the waiting-to-turn vehicle at highway speeds and saved us the trouble. (Thankfully, neither of the two parties involved saw serious injury.)

As for Toyota, 'ditto' the other positive comments. If you maintain them well they last forever. Father has an '85 4Runner, changed out the engine at 273k miles and is currently beyond 300,000. Only major drivetrain failure was a camshaft break back around 190k, a known weakness in that engine. The rest has been normal maintenance/wear-and-tear issues.

Katherine,

Your logic is ridiculous..I may disapprove in my own family of something my brother does, but I'm certainly not going to tolerate any criticism of him from outside the family--even from those I may consider my best friends.

Is this to say that if one of your family members committed murder that a non-family member doesn't have the right to criticise them?

And as I see it's one thing if the issue is purely domestic like tax-cuts. Iraq on the other hand is a world issue. It's UN Security Council resolutions that Saddam is supposed to be complying with, not US resolutions. And the majority of Americans have stated via the poll I quoted that THEY WANT countries like France and Germany to approve of a War with Iraq before they will consider approving of U.S. involvement.

Manish, I looked at the polling report site. You gave a highly selective interpretation not consistent with the entire set of results.

You don't play fair.

Hey, A-Mouse: perhaps your Chrysler experience might be the exception? ;-)

Hilarious, boycotting German cars over a UN veto.

If you need a 4 door, get the Prius. A 2 door, the Insight (but make sure to replace the tires).

Manish, we're not talking about whether someone has "the right" to criticize us. We believe in free speech. Anyone can say whatever they like about us. We're talking about what it takes to maintain friendly relations. Friends don't carp at friends, and that's what a lot of Americans think France and Germany are doing--carping at us while offering no realistic solutions of their own. Megan said it best (as usual) back in September: "Allies support each other unconditionally. At the very least, they do what Canada has done and shut up."

Fred,

I looked specifically at The Newsweek poll of Jan 16-17 which asked:

"Please tell me if you would support or oppose U.S. military action against Iraq in each of the following circumstances. What if The United States and ONE OR TWO of its major allies attacked Iraq, WITHOUT the support of the United Nations? Would you support or oppose U.S. military action in this circumstance?"

to which 52% were opposed and 39% were in favour. Considering that with Britain on board and Germany and France looking to sit out, there aren't too many other MAJOR allies that look to be willing to join the U.S., though many minor allies are there. And quite frankly, without French and German backing, by rules of the Security Council, military action WON'T be sanctioned by the U.N. (And don't be fooled by this Bush saying we've already gotten U.N. approval bit..52% wouldn't be opposed if they thought the UN had pre-approved a war).

Yes, there are other polls on this page done by different organizations for different publications, but many seem to suggest that Americans are increasingly uncomfortable about the Bush Administration's handling of this situation, though some of the polls do suggest some confidence in the way that Bush is handling things.

Michael: No, I drew my knowledge of Chrysler's quality problems from the late 1980s(?) through the middle-late 1990s (I have no data on the latest models) from publications like Consumer Reports and Car and Driver.

TO: Jane Galt
RE: Cars

If you can, find a low-mileage '97 Toyota Celica. Preferably, if you are of the mind, a convertable.

Got one a couple of years ago. Runs like a champ. Good mileage.

VERY quiet. So quiet that we have had to be very careful around pedestrians in parking lots as they don't hear us creeping up on them as we look for a parking spot.

Loaded it with an MP3 player. We've driven it from the Pacific Northwest to the Atlantic over two vacations. No problems.

Nothing like doing the PCH with the top down, playing great music and pausing to let the thundering herds of quail pass in their redwood tracks; the alpha male playing road-guard.

Enjoy,

Chuck(le)

Katherine,

You are making the assumption that Iraq is America's problem. Iraq is the U.N.'s problem. And America's position on what to do about Iraq holds similar weight to the other members of the Security Coucil. The fact that Germany and France have a position contradictory to the U.S. doesn't some how not give them the right to speak out about it.

> And America's position on what to do about Iraq holds similar weight to the other members of the Security Coucil.

Actually, the US position is the only one that matters.

Why? Because the US is the only one that can do anything about Iraq. If the US chooses to do nothing, nothing will happen, no matter what others might want. And, if the US decides to act, there's nothing that said countries can do to stop it.

Furthermore, with the exception of the UK, the other countries aren't in a position to lend significant help, so withdrawing/withholding it is of no consequence.

Yes, France and Germany are entitled to take any position that they deem appropriate. All choices have consequences.

JohnO, I can second your recommendation of Tito's Vodka. Good stuff and not expensive. Beer-wise, I'm mostly a Bass Pale Ale guy.

Even after taking into account the international politics of the last few months in regards to Germany, I don't think I would have changed my mind about buying a 2002 VW Golf TDI. The car fits my needs better than any other vehicle I saw on the market. The looks, the utility, the simplicity, and the reputation of the diesel engine sold me and continue to do so.

In retrospect, I might have stopped to ponder if I should be giving money to a German firm after their decidedly non-ally-like behavior, but I probably would have figured the company isn't at fault for their government's positions...unless someone can point me to a link which shows VW advocating, supporting, or assisting in those positions.

As a reverse to the example of the Z3 (and X5 I think) being built in the US, GM has a plant in Canada which expressed similar reservations to the US actions. Better check to see where your car is made, and where the engine, tranny, etc etc.

First, the pedestrian stuff; my experiences with Hondas and Toyotas have been similar to my experiences with clock radios. I use'm for 10 years uneventfully, and then toss'em out, which is about all I want from a car.

Next, the important stuff. Hacker-Pschorr Marzen is one of the finest barley by-products produced in this solar system. Luckily, if one wishes to pursue geo-politics through beer, Guinness or Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout are also tremendous. Hell, there are even a lot of great American beers now. Capital's Garten Brau is fantastic, although some of you Republicans may be suspicious of anything out of Madison, WI. Not being a large vodka fan, my input on the subject is of more limited range, but I can vouch for Tito's. As to grapejuice, I recently had a 1999 Miguel Torres Manso de Velasco, a Cabernet from Chile, at a cost of around $26. It compared favorably with wines that cost three times as much from other parts of the globe, including Bordeaux. As to whiskey, all the suberb examples come from the Anglosphere, preventing any geopolitical tension. Whew!!

IIRC Z4s are also slated for the same US plant.

And many (all?) Ford Crown Vics are made in Canada, or used to be...

A postscript. If there are any of those who took the above comments regarding whiskey as a slight on Bushmill's, Black Bush, Tullamore Dew, or other fine products of the Emerald Isle, or if any took exception at the reference to that fine land as being part of the Anglosphere, no offense intended.

Dreck,

Based on your current car the GS400, and your stated preference, the LS430, here are my recommendations for cars you should at least test drive before making a purchase:

Infiniti M45 - the ultimate "normal" car. If you want to go for the 1960s "Dad look" yet have enough horsepower (345 hp) to embarrass the punk next door, this is your car. If you like the GS300 but just want a change in scenary this is the car to get.

Audi RS 6 - If Darth Vader commutted to work, this would be his car. 450 hp, all wheel drive, understated looks. If you buy this, the punk next door probably will never leave the house again.

VW Passat W8 - the old passat was described as "a black turtleneck" -- perfect for any occassion (as long as you're under 30). The new Passat with the W8 delivers GS400 performance for less and with (I think) better styling.

VW Phaeton W12 (when it is available) - this car is going to embarass anything short of the new Maybach and it won't cost $200k+. Forget the new 7 series BMW, forget Mercedes's S-class, the Phaeton is the car to get. Unfortunately, its not here yet, but word is that it is coming soon.

Cadillac XLR - when I was a kid, my next door neighbor sold Cadillacs and MG's. He had this story about a guy who had just bought a huge deVille. One day the guy drove up with his wife and four kids. He told them to stay in the car. He asked about trading the deVille for an MGB. As the paperwork was finalized, he literally walked out of the dealer, got into the MGB and to his family's astonishment, he flipped them off, laid about 20 feet of rubber and was never seen again.

Now you might not be that extreme, but if you ever get to the point where 4 doors is two too many, get the XLR. Its built on the Corvette chassis, and has a super-reliable Northstar V8. And trust me, this isn't your father's Cadillac.

Cadillac.

My wife bought a '94 Dodge Shadow. About four years ago, the tranny started acting up. It didn't seem major, so I took it to a tranny shop, and we were out 600$ to have it overhauled. I've talked to a number of people, and Dodge trannys are infamous for going out. She had the tranny fluid changed on schedule, and otherwise maintained the car, as she was a cashier at a service station then.
As for beer, Anchor Steam Beer is a fine domestic product, but I don't know its' avaliability outside of CA.

Volvo? I bought a 15 year old sedan (740, I think), with 145,000 miles on it 1.5 years ago. Kind of slow uphill, not very sexy, built like a tank, moderately good mileage, and completely reliable. Oh yeah: paid for.

My ['86 model, Sept '85 production] Toyota Camry has 240,000+ miles and still is happy cruising at 80 mph. The manual says you shouldn't drive faster than 85 without speed-rated tires, so I don't, though I'm occasionally tempted to try it. Camrys are built in Georgetown, Kentucky -- does that make them American cars? Sorta, kinda. If an old one is that good, the new ones might be pretty nice. Though they don't have the 33 highway mpg I get, more like 28, but the engine in the newer ones is a little bigger, so there's probably more zip.

Will: "Whiskey" can be made anywhere in the world, but the only malt spirit worth drinking is Scotch "Whisky".

The Northstar engine is not only powerful but very reliable. Ask anybody responsible for a fleet - they drive those things 400,000 miles before a rebuild.

Cadillac's styling, both old and Lutz-era new, is awful. Call me superficial, but I won't own a Cadillac until they make a reasonable-looking car.

I owned a BMW M3 years ago, which is an incredibly fun car (especially near the "limits of adhesion"). I prefer the kind of thrill this car gives to the muscle-car Corvette variety. Unfortunately, for the 99% of the time you aren't realizing its driving potential, it is telling you all about the road surface through your spine. Because the suspension is so hard, rattles and squeaks develop by 15,000 miles. They burn oil, too. Inappropriate for high-mileage types like me.

Says the man who has not availed himself of the delights of Black Bush nor Jameson's 1780 reserve nor Middleton Rare, and knows nothing of bourbon beyond Jack Daniels or Johnny Walker. Scotch whisky is the only whiskey. Fie.

As much as Canada has a coherent position on Iraq, it seems to be that we will assist if there is UN approval and we haven't decided yet what we'll do if the US decides to move "alone" (i.e., with the support of Canada's closest allies, like the UK and Australia, but without the blessing of China or France). Not a position I particularly support, but it is distinct from those of France and Germany.

But if you really want to boycott our cars feel free. All of our automotive industry is located in Ontario and they're the ones who keep voting for Chretien so they probably have it coming.

As for automotive advice, if you've shortlisted the LS 430 and don't want to buy German there aren't really many options left. You probably should check out the Infinitis though (both the M45 and the Q45). Having to choose between the LS 430 and the Q45 is a problem I wouldn't mind having.

A-Mouse: Consumer Reports tends to worship at the altar of foreign autmobiles. [hyperbole] They'd wrinkle their nose at a perpetual motion machine if it rolled out of a Ford factory [/hyperbole]. Car and Driver, on the other hand, is reliable (and usually hilarious when they absolutely hate a model).

One more reason to throw your hands up in the air and declare car ownership slightly less dominated by chance than Yahtzee!.

Aye, few things are more distressing than a narrow-minded approach to distilled beverages. While I stand second to no man (or woman) in my regard to peaty wonders like Laphroiag 15 year old, or other fine products of Scotland, the above mentioned Hibernian treasures are not to be discounted, nor are such magnificent works like the powerful nectar that is Booker's Choice, and other marvels out of Kentucky or Tennessee.

I bought a Dodge Stratus back in aug 97 and it is still running pretty well as it closes in on 99,000 miles. It has been mostly trouble free except for having to replace the head gasket which was luckily still under the extended warranty period.
Of course you might consider that they are now a German compnay I guess. Oh nevermind.

I'd second your experince with the M3, Mindless. I have an Audi A4 which is a very nice car to drive, but it also is very noisy. The build quality is simply sub-par for a supposed luxury car. Lots of little rattles and squeeks from poorly fit together dashboard parts.

It also had more than its share of other problems, the sort of things that you'd expect to be pricing yourself out of by buying a luxury class car. I don't know if BMW is any better, but I won't be buying another Audi or a VW, given the problems I've had with my current car (which is only about 5 years old.)

"Says the man who has not availed himself of the delights of Black Bush nor Jameson's 1780 reserve nor Middleton Rare, and knows nothing of bourbon beyond Jack Daniels or Johnny Walker. Scotch whisky is the only whiskey. Fie."

Please! According to these folks, for a product to be called 'bourbon' it must be produced in Bourbon County, Kentucky. Of course, if that were true, then according to these folks there is no such thing, as 'no whiskey is currently made in Bourbon County'. They might be more accurate to say that no whiskey is legally made in Bourbon County, however. Regardless of what purists might consider 'bourbon,' Jack is Tennessee Whiskey and Johnny Walker is Scotch, albeit cheap blended swill. I like cheap blended swill and my fav is The Famous Grouse, although it's pretty much indistinguishable from Johnny after the first couple of sips.

Ah well, as pointed out by several previous commenters, the origins of cars as well as whiskeys can be elusive. The most 'made in America' car is.. The Honda, while my big American Dodge pickup says "Hecho in Mexico" on its data plate.

If comfort and quiet are high on the priority list, I'd argue for a big 'American-made' boat, with the Lincoln Towncar getting my vote. Comfy as the living room couch and good acoustics. Caddies are also very nice, but my head touches the roof and my shoulder presses against the side window - but then I'm bigger than most. There's also the advantage that you can get the American-made vehicles serviced just about anywhere, while there are no services for foreign cars of any kind anywhere near here. This is less of a problem in the city of course, but I've seen more than one Beamer being trucked back to the city from Jellystone. The downside? You'll have a hell of a time finding a place to dock the boat in the city.

Personally, I'd argue that if you like German cars, then boycotting them is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Don't worry, they'll come crawling back like the trollops they are.

You had an M3!? Way cool. You might consider going back into that market (leaving the politics aside for a moment) - the new ones are faster and better behaved. Try the M3 Convertible...
Or for something completely different, take a look at the Honda Element. Very funky, very rad.

Michael: Consumer Reports does have the advantage of compiling long-term data, however. And yes, I also read C/D as much for the writing as for the cars. Did you read the one last fall when they dissed the Cadillac version of the Avalanche? I fell out of my chair -- multiple times.

My 1989 Toyota Corolla has 229K miles on it, and I
hope to log at least another 100K on it. My wife's 1991 Camry has no end of trouble, however.
Still, Toyota's are the most reliable cars around.

Manish: to me, that sounds like a pollster trying to slant the results by how the question is phrased.

'87 Voyager & '89 Caravan: 250,000+ miles on first & 200,000 on second; 2 engines & 3 tranmission rebuilds on first (and a 4th needed by the time we donated it to charity) & 2 transmission rebuilds on second.

I've finally convinced the Mrs that she _doesn't_ want another Chrystler. We now have 3 Toyotas (Previa & 2 pickups - about 450,000 miles total for the three), with my old Nissan pickup (200,000 miles) as the "spare." We haven't had a Japanese vehicle that we haven't gotten at least 175,000 miles out of before it needed "real" work on it.

I'm sure happy it's Germany & France, 'cause I'd hate to have to boycott Japan!

Steer clear of the used Yugos - hard to find parts since Clinton bombed the factory.
Cs

Just so it's said: There are former owners of Japanese vehicles that can tell horror stories. My Nissan pickup was hands down the worst vehicle I ever owed - and that's saying something, as the first car I owned was a Chevy BelAir that was several years older than me, and maintained only sporadically, to be generous. The Nissan almost never started when the temps dropped below 20F, and in upstate NY, that's damn near half the year. God I hated that truck...

As for suggestions, I've also been looking for a new car, and had originally been looking at German cars. However, the events of the past 6 months have finally pushed me to the point that I won't buy one. Thus, I've expanded my horizons and discovered that off-lease Jags can be gotten pretty cheap (25K-30K or so for a 2000, 65K+ when new), the warranty is extendable to 100K miles, and from what I hear, post '95 models are FAR more reliable due to the Ford influence. Not to mention that they are downright gorgeous. I'm not eager to buy a used car, but hell, if it's clean and under 40K miles, I think I might give it a shot.

Or maybe I'll bow to the wife's desires and buy the Mustang Mach I (a wife who loves 300+ HP cars - am I lucky or what? :)

I've owned cars of many nations over the years, and am usually able to separate politics from automobiles. There is one exception. For some reason, I cannot even look at a Mitsubishi without feeling a kind of mixture of disgust and rage. The sight of the three diamonds calls to mind images of Australian prisoners being used for bayonet practice, dead Chinese civilians in heaps, raped Koreans and the rest. It's not rational, other peoples have histories, but the name gets me.

Besides the miles you drive, you didn't mention other key factors, like are you too big or small for some cars. I weigh 200 lb, am 6 feet tall, long-legged and long-armed, and I just plain don't fit in most Japanese and other small vehicles, including imported vans and pickups. I recently traded in a 96 Chrysler T&C minivan, with 114,000 miles on it in 6 1/2 years, so I drive like you do. It was absolutely the most comfortable vehicle I've ever been in, especially for driving long distances solo. I could drive 700 miles in 12 hours, and feel very good on getting out of the car, no stiff joints or cramped muscles. Even a large Cadillac wasn't as comfortable. On the other hand, I had that vehicle in the shop more times than all the other vehicles I've owned in the last 30 years, put together. Even the steering wheel had to be replaced because the cheap plastic rim was crumbling in my hands. The A/C died, twice, each time shortly after the previous warranty had expired. The two things that convinced me to get rid of it were (1) a tie rod that fell apart unexpectedly as I left my driveway, and (2) the automatic transmission which sometimes failed to engage. If you can tolerate a rougher ride, get a Ford diesel pickup, it'll run forever. I've had one since 1983, 149,000 miles on it and still going. I might sell it to you.
P.S. If I could fit in one, I'd buy a Toyota Camry.

I keep hearing this mantra of "buy imports they are better". Granted, this has been only my own experience, but from the standpoint of twist-the-key it-goes reliability, my American cars have always topped the ones from Germany, Japan, Sweden, Italy, and Belgium. My Chevrolet pickup truck has had NO fixes under warranty (compared to TWO complete brake system go-throughs on the "wonderful" Toyota a cow-orker has). My Dodge Intrepid (pre Daimler takeover) ran like a gutshot cat at 137,000 miles when I needed to get a pickup. Contrast this with two failed MANUAL transmissions in a BMW in 34,000. Your mileage may vary, but for MY money, if you are going to keep a vehicle for the mileages you are talking about, it is hard to beat a domestic for value received. You may not get bragging rights at brie and cabernet parties. You may get stopped in some California towns and asked if you "are lost", but at least you have something good.

Like German-style beer? Get a Christian Moerlein, which is brewed in Cincinnati.

I want a New Beetle, but I'll wait for the price to come down once the boycott kicks in. That way, I get the car and the Germans lose money.

No, A-Mouse, but it sounds like I need to. :-) If I can't find a back issue I'll talk to those in the know.

roy, have you looked into the Honday Odyssey? Some family friends own one and it seems a nice vehicle all around, generally gets good marks in the car rags, too.

My mother's transport currently is a Ford Windstar, which is nice enough, but the fuel economy is nothing to write home about.

To Michael Ulbaldi: you are correct that Consumer Reports favors foreign designed cars. However once you get past Brock Yates, etc. at Car & Driver, they clearly have a preference for foreign designed cars also. On their yearly 10 Best list, they always have 2-3 Bimmers, and a few hondas and Audis. As far as recent American cars that made the list, I can only think of the Ford Focus and the Corvette (C5, of course).
Mindles, if you want to take this to the extreme politically, remember that BMW's are built in conservative Bavaria, in Southern Germany. Most American made cars are union-made, while Japanese cars made in America are made in plants where the workers have consistently rejected unionization.

It doesn't sound like the sort of thing that might appeal to Mr Dreck, but the new Mazda 6, Japanese nameplate and all, is built in Flat Rock, Michigan by a UAW crew.

So you're considering boycotting German cars because they're not with us on Iraq.

I myself have always boycotted German cars for political reasons. Let me think, why is that? Oh, yes, it's because companies like Mercedes, BMW and VW were enthusiastic participants in a regime that slaughtered all the grandparents, aunts, uncles and first cousins my family tree will ever show, among millions of others.

Of course, that bit of history and politics didn't keep you from owning "several" German cars. But you might boycott them over Iraq.

Your screen name is indeed very appropriate, isn't it?

Spewblast - I suppose there's no allowing for the fact that they stopped doing all that two generations ago (and suffered the consquences), whereas I'm distressed by things they are actually doing right now.

Incidentally, the side of my own family that remained in Germany in the '30s and '40s was also wiped off the face of the earth. The same goes for my wife's family.

And yes, I chose not to buy one.

Heck, I might have to start apologizing for driving my old Ford Taurus. Henry Ford I was not exactly a virtuous guy when it came to Adolph Hitler and the Nazis. Is there such a thing as an automotive company with clean hands?

Hi, Mindles,

Everybody seems to be singing the praises of high-end cars-- gee, I wish I could afford a Cadillac or a Beemer.....

If you're looking at mid-priced vehicles, Mazda seems to be the ticket. Three of my four cars have been Mazda 626s. (My first car was a 1965 Cadillac Sixty-Series Fleetwood that I bought in '82-- it was almost as old as I was, and twice as cranky. God, I miss that ol' boat.... the "Queen Mary", I called her....)

The first Mazda was a 1986 626, loaded with every option that Mazda hung on them that year except an automatic transmission, the fancy-pants Automatic Adjustable Suspension, and a turbocharger. I bought her new in November of '85 with 20 miles on the clock and just about ran the wheels off her. After 258,000 miles, she needed a new radiator, a new gas tank, and new fuel lines, and the suspension in the left rear corner was making funny noises. But the engine still ran like a Swiss watch-- it fired up easily, pulled like a tractor, revved happily, got 35-40 miles to the gallon on the highway, and burned a quart of oil about every 1500 miles, which isn't bad considering that the engine had never been pulled apart in those 258,000 miles. I finally sold her in October of '97 for $50 to a friend who desperately needed wheels of any kind.

With the '86 dying in '97, I bought a '96 626 used, this time with an automatic. Wrong move. You don't why you love a stick until you drive a car that doesn't have one. Still, the car was reliable and comfortable....

Finally, I unloaded the '96 626 in January 2000 in favor of a '97 626, this time with a stick. (Yea!!) It, too, has been utterly reliable.

All three 626's have been the plush models, and I've never had any trouble with the accesories-- EVERYTHING has worked perfectly, except for some of the smaller items on the old '86 towards the end, which can be put down to age. And only twice have those 626s been dead on the road, and both times it's been my fault-- once I ran out of gas (duh!), and the other time I simply forgot to replace the battery in a timely fashion (they do wear out, of course, but I had never had a car long enough before to know that).

Well, this has run on longer than I wanted, but I do love Mazdas. :) And I'm 6'1" tall, and weigh about 260 pounds. So they're suitable for even large people.

I rather liked my '90 Nissan Sentra.

Positives:
Zippy nimble feel.
Extremely reliable (had to get the steering rack replaced once, but that was about it.)
Lasted 11 years and 275,000 miles.

Negatives:
The reason I had to get rid of it was body rust so severe that the rear suspension was about to fall off. Winters in Boston, Rochester NY and Maine probably didn't help with that.

May I just point out that this is the funniest, most incoherent, and informative thread I've read in ages? Cars, politics, and booze. With arguments and a little vitriol thrown in for spice.

And I agree with Virginia Postrel (goodness, I love writing that): buy a Honda.

A quick comment on the German engineers' inability to get ergonomics correct. I lived in Birkenfeld Germany for four years. My house had a metal and glass back door. On the inside there was a flipper-type of door handle, but on the outside there was a standard round knob. Because the flipper type of handles can be placed very close to the edge of the door, that was where this door handle was placed. But because the outside handle was a knob, and the door opened inward, opening the door invariably let to scraping one's knuckles on the door jamb. How this escaped the engineers who designed the door is beyond me. I got used to opening with my fingertips, rather than with my whole hand on the knob, but it caught all my friends who stopped over. Everyone of them would marvel that the same folks who build BMW and Mercedes cars could be so bad at such simple things as doorknobs.

Since you've just unzipped your fly and discovered your small but nascent and budding patriotism, might it be a tad to expectationist to suggest that you pull extra-hard trying to retrieve your head from your arse and go out and BUY AN AMERICAN MADE CAR?

Geez. What is it with you people?

Paul, we're Americans. That means we should be buying the best-made car for our bucks. To do otherwise would mean to drive us crazy and support inferior design and craftmanship. It's the capitalist way, baby!

if you're on the subject of cars, how about really changing the playing field..?

Well someone has to ask it.

What's more AMERICAN a Chevy built in Canada or a Toyoto built in Kentucky?

Okay, this is pure fantasy on my part, but go for the best of all, the new Aston Martin Vanquish. Okay, that firm is now owned by Uncle Sam, but it is the most British of cars, and if it's good enough for 007, it is good enough for me.

Hey, I've been boycotting MCB, Audi, Rolls Royce, Rolex, and all that stuff my whole life. Screw them, I say. I can live without any German products including their beer, and the French don't make anything other than cheese, wine, aircraft carriers that double as submarines, and that shitty Puegot that nobody in their right mind will buy.

So it boils down to cars from Deutchland made only for the wealthy. It is also a fact that multi-national corporations make God only knows what and to boycott stuff we know nothing about won't work. Lots of stereo, electronic, and various component parts are made by Euro centered multi-nationals.

The point about Europe banning genetically engineered seed is well taken. Starvation around the world could end in one year. But that would hurt European markets.

I suggest the best way to make an impact is to write directly to the US subsidiaries of German firms. As a long-time customer of VW & Audi, I let them know I would no longer be a customer for any German-owned firms, as long as the German government persists with its' irresponsible behavior. My days as an Audi driver are coming to an end. If every BMW/Audi/VW/Mercedes owner made a similar pledge and wrote directly to the companies, I predict it would cause some consternantion in wienerschnitzel-land.

France has assisted in my vacation plans. First, I cancelled my planned bike ride about the Loire Valley. Instead, I'm headed to A'dam for Queens Day. That will include a flight to London and then jet to skeepole (sic), AA and BA. Was gonna take the EuroStar to Brussels and Thalys to A'dam, but what the hell. Spend the money where it's welcome. If I miss Paris badly enough I'll just stop by a Texaco toilet.

I have been driving a Jeep Grand Cherokee for 5 years, it is a 95. I bought it with 60,000 miles on it, it now has 128,762 and it will probably make it to 200,000 for me and beyond, if I do not trade it in before that. It is roomy, had an adequate sound system, I put in one of my own choosing (mp3s). Germans and the French had nothing to do with it.

All this talk about boycotting German- and French- products is heartening.

However, I have to second the notion about buying American cars. Remember, most observers and analysts agree that if it wasn't for GM and its "Keep America Rolling" Campaign, the U.S. economy could've taken an even bigger hit after 9-11. Even Toyota's PR person thanked GM for keeping the industry alive with their incentive programs. Also, some of the best cars in initial quality in their respective classes are.....GM.

http://www.detnews.com/2002/insiders/0211/11/inside-7164.htm

http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0205/30/-502489.htm

http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0205/31/b01-502833.htm

According to the article:

"Toyota and GM showed the biggest gains in quality over the past five years with improvements of 31 percent and 30 percent respectively. "

"GM also had four segment leading cars in the study, including the mid-size Chevrolet Malibu and Buick Century, which beat the redesigned Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. "

By the way, the difference between a Toyota made in Kentucky and a Chevy made in Canada is that the profits from the Chevy benefit GM shareholders through dividend payments, and keeping the S&P 500 as well as the DJIA afloat. Also, GM currently supports 1.2 million retirees with pension and medical benefits that the U.S. and State governments don't have to pay out of your own taxpayer dollars. How many American retirees is Toyota supporting: None.

Purchasing a Chrysler Mini-Van is buying German since Chrysler is now DAIMLER-Chrysler. I own a 1999 Dodge Intrepid, and used to own a 1996 Dodge Stratus. I've informed Mercedes-Benz USA that I will no longer patronize them or any other German products.

I just emailed VW explaining why, as previously planned, I will not be replacing my current sedan with a Jetta or Passat as planned, nor will my family be replacing our Jeep SUV with the forthcoming MiniBus.

I am done. Duestchland ist fertig.

I just emailed VW explaining why, as previously planned, I will not be replacing my current sedan with a Jetta or Passat as planned, nor will my family be replacing our Jeep SUV with the forthcoming MiniBus.

I am done. Duestchland ist fertig.

For god's sake, by a Saab. A 9-3 Viggen (old body style) handily beats a BMW 330 on the road (since the turbocharged Viggen 4-cylinder cranks out 230 hp and an astonishing 257 ft-lbs of torque). The Viggen cost less, is faster, and comes with leather (not "leatherette")and heated seats standard.

Plus Saab is now 100% owned by General Motors, so when you buy a Saab, you're indirectly buying American. Saabs are made in Sweden, which although not a NATO member, has been far mor supportive of U.S. security interests than our so-called allies.

Since we're on the subject of cars, here is one vehicle suggestion to support the war effort, as well as tweak the anti-war crowd:

2004 Pontiac GTO: 350HP Corvette V-8 power, rear-wheel drive, and assembled by our Anglosphere friends in Australia. What more could you ask for?

I like my "Yank Tank" and shall stick with buying American regardless of make and model.

I feel the same thing about the overated French wines. The Napa/Sonoma/Mendicino area of California, years on end have produced wines just as good or better than ANY coming out of France.

French wines and German cars are good for "Snob appeal" only, and takes dollars out of our deserving producers pockets.

I had an Acura for 12 years; got a good deal
(

While in Europe this summer, I heard of a joke that went around in Germany:

How do you pronounce DaimlerChrysler?

Daimler. The Chrysler is silent.

The one good thing about this crisis is that their contempt for America has now been brought to the surface.

While in Europe this summer, I heard of a joke that went around in Germany:

How do you pronounce DaimlerChrysler?

Daimler. The Chrysler is silent.

The one good thing about this crisis is that their contempt for America has now been brought to the surface.

Cars are very subjective and very situational. I bought an accord last summer saved $5k over the passat and avoided a nasty defect in the VW. But, like i said the choice parameters are very situational, e.g. my 15.5 year old son got his learners permit last week. If you want me to consult in more depth. please e-mail more facts off line and I will try to prenet you with some appropriate choices.

I work at a fleet management company in Germany. My colleagues from maintenance & repairs tell me that Mercedes - quite common in fleets - is currently having some terrible quality problems. Fairly new cars are having all kinds of breakdowns. Also, someone I know bought a Mercedes S-class 2 years ago and it´s given him nothing but trouble. They will improve, but if you are considering a boycott, this should make it easier. My next car will probably be a Mazda 6 - taxes on fuel have gone up again, so I am not going to pay a premium for a German car. Consider this: you have one good reason to dislike our government/country. I have a whole list.

This is one of the stupidest threads I've seen in the blogosphere yet. Were you rightwingers all born mentally defective or what?

I've just decided that my next car is going to be a German one.

By the way, how many of you are using products made in China? Anyone? Anyone?

After witnessing the German and French reaction to American leadership, I will never purchase another German or French product as long as I live. By the way, according to a recent poll, the Japanese populace is also opposed to our action in Iraq. I guess it is time to start purchasing American cars again. I know all my future cars will be American made.

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