Asymmetrical Information

Silly. Very, very silly. A lot of women use the willingness to utter the "three little words" as a password.

Password to what, you ask? Don't be silly!

I believe this is more often than not true because women start to fall for men quicker and they test the waters by just saying it and throwing it out there, then, the guy usually feels guilted into saying it back, but that's not always the wost thing, many times that can be the beginning of a nice, sometimes long-term relationship.

Why didn't someone tell me? Might this be why my last relationship fell apart? We'll never know.

What if you are gay? If the man has to say it first, how do you figure out which one? If you are a lesbian, there is no man to initiate the "three little words."

Many, many times I've seen male friends of mine crash and burn because they thought that the relationship was going GREAT, only to have the "Let's just be friends" speech. How, oh how did it come to this?

Women are a mystery. They WANT to be a mystery. Unwritten rules? WTF??? Who came up with this crap?

What's wrong with talking to the guy who's dating you? Instead we're supposed to distill meaning from the vapor of nuance (to misquote Stephenson).

It's difficult for us guys to open up and get attached. When we do it means something to us, something profound. But it can all go out the window in a heartbeat because some young lady you fell for is using you for free dinners and entertainment.

So yes, we should always wait until the woman says those three little words FIRST. Even then we can't be sure that she doesn't mean something entirely different, but it's probably the best that we can hope for.

James

That's why I'm a card-carrying misogynist!

Oh crap. The dating wars hit Asymmetrical Information. James, I agree that women are a mystery to men at times. It's because many men WANT them to be a mystery. I recently consoled a friend who was dumped by a man because "she was too available to him." This meant that she always said "yes" to an invitation to go out. You wanna talk about confused? It is these situations that make women go buy "The Rules." Regardless, all the unwritten rules are just social niceties we've managed to hang on to.

A couple theories:

1) If a guy says "I love you" first, he runs the risk of seeming "too nice" or "wimpy" or whatnot. In other words, friend material. Not someone you date.

2) Stuff like "I love you" and "you're beautiful" sound hackneyed to your typical woman, who has heard it 100s of times by guys trying to get laid, who say it without meaning it. So even if you mean it it will sound a little trite. All those previous guys spoiled it.

In other news, I just heard on the radio that Scott Petersen is getting marriage proposals from women while he's cooling his heels in the pokey. Um. I give up. (Not really).

The gal is supposed to say "I love you" before the guy? News to me. I always thought it was the other way around. Of course, I've been married for 21 years, so my memories of the dating scene may off -- or things could have changed.

Still, I recall that the phrase meant something in my world. It was a way a guy signaled that this was something more than a mild flirtation. Not that the gal should start picking out china, but that he was serious about the relationship. It was an indication that he, at least, would not be going out with other people. I have no idea why a women would want to make a similar commitment before the guy does. Even if she is NOT interested in dating anyone else, saying so before the guy does would seem a fatal move. It allows the guy to put her on layaway while considering other options.

I've been reading a forum on dating for a while now, and the majority of posters (male and female) there agree with dude's theory #1.

Women tend to say they want an 'emotionally available' mate, but when it comes right down to it guys who are too available early on in a relationship, emotionally and otherwise, seem to get the 'LJBF' speech. Anticipation builds desire, and moves a guy from the 'just friends' to the 'boyfriend' category.

This squares with my own experience. A lot of guys complain that women only date 'bad boys', not 'nice guys'. Unfortunately, 'nice guy' has become a synonym for wimp rather than gentleman. Too many men think that feminism has somehow fundamentally changed courting rituals. I think its going to take more 40 years (give or take) to undo thousands of years of work defining basic patterns of human behavior. Men are still going to have to pursue and women get to make most of the choices. The only thing that has changed significantly is that the rituals are now 'underground' rather than formally acknowledged, and therefore a lot more mysterious to both men and women.

I wouldn't say letting the woman say 'I love you' first is a Rule but it is certainly a good strategy for men. Wait until it means something to both of you. Show your intention to stick around for the long haul. Saying 'I love you' early means you are trying to do this on the cheap.

I respectively disagree. Its okay to say "I love you" first if you're drunk @ a bar. @ least that's what I did with my current girlfriend.

Funny thing was she was dying to say it too, but she was scared that it'd scare me away. I think its much more common to have it slip out or for two people to talk about the "L-word" before using it.

There are no rules.

I can think of instances in which I was the first to utter The Three Words and I did so because I felt it.

Stuff like this really makes me glad my girlfriend is one of the most levelheaded and sensible people I know. I hear about all the other crazy negotiative nonsense that so many other people put up with and I shudder and thank God that's not me. I was the first between us to say the big three words (after a month), and I waited that long only because I didn't want to scare her off by seeming too eager. Now we've been together for more than a year, and I'm currently wondering if it's too soon to ask her to marry me.

I never said it first, never would say it first. I'm just a reserved person. I'm sure a lot of women feel differently.

That's why men think women are a mystery. They're trying to figure us out as a group, when in fact we (like men) are individuals.

Guys generally do better when they try to know the particular woman of interest instead of falling back on what the last girlfriend liked or what his sister said she wants from a man. I know it's a lot of work, and frankly, some women aren't worth the effort. Try to find the ones that are.

Denise --

I swear, I'm not trying to start a flame war here...but I can't help but notice the contradictions in your comments.

You rightly advise that men should deal with women on an individual basis, and you say men are individuals too. Agreed. But then in the next breath you lump all of us GUYS into one group, i.e. "that's why men think women are a mystery. They're trying to figure us out as a group".

Hmm. Is that so?

If we're going to do some "lumping", why not be egalitarian about it? Perhaps women might generally do better with us if they would stop viewing guys as a group that supposedly and collectively thinks women are a mystery.

Example: It's not that I dont love you, its that I'm not "in" love with you.

Love means very different things to men and women.

Listen, all of this is just plain silly.

IF THE SUCCESS OF A RELATIONSHIP DEPENDS UPON "WHO SAID IT FIRST", THEN IT'S NOT A RELATIONSHIP ONE SHOULD WANT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Men and woman are equal-opportunity game players. And remember, it takes two to tango. If mate #1 instigates games and mate #2 plays along (begrudgingly because it might be "worth it", or willingly because they enjoy it...it matters not), mate #2 eventually gets everything he/she deserves.

If you don't want to play games...DON'T. Make your feelings known, and/or find someone else. Why would you want to marry somebody who enjoys making you jump through hoops???!! Do you think it will magically end some day once you're married?? HAH!!

Guys, if you love your mate but refrain from saying the 3 words first due to a fear that you might scare her off and appear wimpy...and if in fact this fear turns out to be accurate...why in the world would you seek to prolong an intimate relationship with such a person?? SAY IT!! If she then thinks you're a wimp, better that you find out sooner rather than later (like, after you're married to her). If she returns the sentiment, then you're all set.

An you women out there...the same goes for you!!

SHEESH!!

A man marries a woman thinking that she won't change. A woman marries a man thinking that he will change. And they are both wrong.

Women want to domesticate the wild stallion. They want to think of themselves as being the special woman that makes that bad boy willing to change into a loving, loyal husband and father just for her. If he lets her know that he is already domesticated and not a wild stallion, she loses that inner fantasy.

i've always found cultural wisdom to be full of crap. how many idiots out there have said i love you in order to try and save a relationship.

when you have a special relationship with an individual, it is mutually beneficial. but it is also some thing you have to work at. i don't remember who said it first (talking about 20+ years) but i do know that we continue to acknowledge it by saying to each other often and working to keep the relationship special. btw my mate continues to be a mystery to me as well as independent, i wouldn't have it any other way

on the banks of the housatonic.

If this is a rule, it is a stupid rule. Just say what you are thinking and live with it. The relationship is either going to work or not. I don't think it has a real impact.

I've also never heard of the broccoli rule. Is there a reason I shouldn't order broccoli on a first date?

Amen, Michael M.

I think we're all forgetting the wonderful example given to us by Seinfeld.

George: "I love you."
Woman: "I'm hungry, let's go get something to eat."

That's a pretty big matzoh ball.

I said it first. It was in 1986. We are very happily married. But what do I know, I'm just dumb guy ;)

YMMV

I don't think anyone is advocating 'playing games', if playing games means saying and doing things that are untrue to your own character. Working the natural ebb and flow of human interaction is not 'playing games'. Saying 'I love you' when you really mean 'I'm so hot for your bod I could burst' is playing a game. Not saying 'I love you' until you have developed a real basis for the feeling is just common sense. I do happen to believe that most guys will say it too early in a relationship, well before that foundation has been set. I somewhat disagree with James. Men become infatuated quickly and deeply.

Timmy had a very good point about using 'I love you' to attempt to salvage a failing relationship.

BTW, I don't believe ANYTHING anyone, male or female, drunk @ a bar says.

Re Chris Farley:

Broccoli (but even moreso asparagus) apparently change the taste of one's sperm.

The real question is, why did Jane change it to say "order broccoli on a first date"?

I think you should go back to the original version... so much better.

The answer, Devilbunny, is that my family reads this blog.

And you all have dirty minds. The reason you shouldn't order broccoli is that it tends to get rather unattractively lodged in your teeth.

But really, who should say "I love you" first is rather unimportant in the grand scheme of things, isn't it? Our attention should really be on who should hang up the phone first.

I was more disturbed by Megan's disclosure of the third unwritten rule. Ignorance has been bliss...Mrs. Manhattan & I will have to talk.

Michael M. -- "But then in the next breath you lump all of us GUYS into one group"

You're absolutely right. I get after my girlfriends sometimes for lumping all guys together ("men are pigs" kind of stuff).

"That's why men think" was simply poor writing on my part, and I apologize. I realized it right after posting and I thought about correcting it with another post to say "some men," but didn't follow through. As you noticed, though, I did better elsewhere in the post.

Anyway, I'm not offended at all, so it's a good thing you weren't trying to start a flame war. :)

Aha.

I always thought spinach was the #1 culprit for getting stuck in teeth. Then again, I don't eat much cooked broccoli - mostly crudites.

For what it's worth, I lived by that rule. (Even with the lady who is now my wife.) Most of my friends who survived the Dating Wars did, too.

I know of only one man who did not obey that rule, and he basically grew a womb and got dumped by every woman he said it to (as of my last check, anyway). Yes, I'm implying -- nay, stating outright -- that he was (and possibly still is) a wuss. Sorry. I personally think that's why he was unlucky in love again and again and again and...

We called him the Human Pinball for a reason.

I know of one friend who lived by the rule, and has had a miserable dating experience since, oh, high school; on the other hand, he's the exception, rather than the rule, and there are a heckuva lot of complicating factors at work there.

The rule exists (to my mind), either because (1) traditional notions of femininity and masculinity have eroded; (2) men, on the whole, are easier for women to figure than v.v., so men rationally play a waiting game; (3) men bear the burdens in most of the dance that is dating; or (4) men really are afraid of coming off as wussies. Or some combination thereof.

And there's nothing wrong with applying game theory to dating, so long as you remember that at least one of the participants is not rational.

Very true.. my first true love left me just because I didn't know this rule then. I wish I'd known this seven years ago [sigh]

Guys are naturally more reserved about that whole "talking about our feelings" thing, so if a guy just comes out of the blue with "I love you" he's probably insincere, which is why most women will immediately run and hide. "Actions speak louder than words" is the code we live by in all things emotional, whatever they are.

I didn't know about this rule until now. I'm sticking with it. I hate relationship games.

I am impressed -- nay, AWED -- by some of the commenters in this section. And you know who you are.

Please, oh great ones, share with us poor neophytes your time management and wealth building skills, because they apparently are cutting-edge and so revolutionary that they have allowed you to do something that heretofor would have been deemed utterly impossible.

HOW IN THE WORLD DID YOU ALL FIND THE TIME AND RESOURCES TO MEET AND GET TO KNOW "MOST" MEN/WOMEN???

Is there a seminar that I can attend to learn this stuff? After all, if I could just find the time and money to meet most of the millions and millions (using my best Carl Sagan schtick) of ladies on this big planet...well, I'd be able to distill common behavioral traits that I could then ascribe to every woman I meet in the future. Then I'd never need to bother to take the time to actually get to know any of 'em!! Gee, Wally, that'll kinda sorta free up a lot more time to spend on my stamp collection.

The rule is simple - whatever you say the rule is will be the rule if you can convince the other person it is the rule.

You can have it both ways - you just have to make sure you do it with confidence.

Anyone waiting for a return to validate their feelings might want take a look at the basis of their feelings.

This thread was awesome.

This thread is yet more illustration of why I've given up on dating, and am resigned to a lifetime of increasingly bitter cranksterhood. ( Here's more.) Remember, growing up, that weird old guy in the neighborhood that all the kids were afraid of? Me, in ten years, tops.

"Damn Kids! Get off my lawn!"

But isn't ordering broccoli a sign that you've moved past your childhood dislikes and can take in a more sophisticated vegetable?

I've been married for 25 years. I think that if I'd waited for her to say those three words, we'd still be dating.

I've been married for 25 years. If I'd waited for her to say those words, we might still be dating...

Women. Can't live with them. Pass the beer nuts.

Al Bundy, of course, said, "Women: Can't live with 'em. The end."

Comments are Closed.