September 3, 2003
From the desk of Jane Galt:A plea for civility
Kevin Drum has posted something that I would like to second wholeheartedly (only, of course, for this blog please change the word "liberal" to "conservative", and vice versa):
BLOG CIVILITY....I've been meaning to say something about my comments section for a while, and a couple of the threads today have convinced me that today is the day.I don't patrol the comments much, and I don't delete posts. I try to respond now and again, but I don't do it regularly because so many of the threads just get too long too fast. But one thing I'd like, being the idealistic liberal fellow that I am, is a civil discussion that doesn't involve kindergarten levels of invective and personal attacks. More and more, though, that's what the threads are becoming.
There's not really much I can do to force people to be polite other than to ask. So I'm asking. Please try to keep the rants to a minimum, be reasonably civil to conservatives who come here (and vice versa for the conservatives who visit), and avoid all personal attacks. If the trolls piss you off beyond endurance, just ignore them and move on to another post. (Or else head off to one of the many blogs that welcome invective and ad hominem attacks. You know where to find them.)
There are conservative sites where I'm reluctant to bother commenting because there's so little point. No matter what I say, I know I'm just going to get trashed by 30 consecutive commenters, all congratulating themselves on demonstrating what an idiot I am. Unfortunately, the same thing is increasingly happening to conservatives on my blog, and it's hard to see how that adds anything to the general welfare.
I'm very much afraid that this may be one of the blogs where Kevin dreads commenting, and that shouldn't be. Driving off the moderate liberals leaves us vulnerable to the worst sort of degenerative discourse.
There is nothing that sets my teeth on edge faster than people congratulating themselves because people of their political persuasion are morally superior, smarter, and more honorable, as a group, than those on the other side -- unless it's personal attacks on people of said other persuasion based on this smugly self-satisfied premise. Jump all over people's ideas -- fine. Make brutal fun of policies and proposals -- also fine. But please, please, please stop calling each other names, accusing each other of the meanest possible motives, and otherwise behaving in ways that would make your mother ashamed if it happened at a church social. The free and open exchange of ideas which is necessary to an open society should always be vigorous, but it does not have to be boorish.
So, for example, it is perfectly fine (although generally extremely ill-considered), to tell a liberal that you think their proposed policy is but a short step from totalitarian collectivism. It is not okay to accuse them of proposing their policy because they are, at heart, a vicious power-mad apparatchik bent on imposing their dystopian vision on the world for the sheer joy of ordering people around. Similarly, you should feel free to tell conservatives that you believe their policies will leave innocent children starving in the streets, but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from stating that the reason people become conservatives is their secret longing to trod on the broken bodies of dying children as they make their way about their daily errands.
Right now I only delete posts that contain profanity, other inappropriate material, or (very occasionally) reveal something about someone other than the commenter that I think they shouldn't. I wouldn't like to have to start policing more aggressively.
So keep it civil, OK?
I consider myself fairly liberal (maybe more liberaltarian) and I enjoy your site. Even the attackers are more intelligent than normal on both sides. It is a good reminder, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it if I were you. I am happy to have found this site.
I must say, if the attacks are as funny as, "at heart, a vicious power-mad apparatchik bent on imposing their dystopian vision on the world for the sheer joy of ordering people around" I wouldn't mind them.
On the other hand, I agree and am pleased to see the plea. Perhaps everyone will be nice...for a time.
Beyond the run-of-the-mill name-calling and ridiculous demonization, what is also tiresome is how often posters in Blogsville respond to that which they wish their fellow conversants had wrote, instead of what they actually did. That's usually good for a couple of thousand words of wasted bandwidth.
If you take away mudslinging then there's realy nothing left for Liberals and Conservatives to do to each other. Their reps are the same dull guys in the same dark suits that are totaly interchangeable. Even when one of them changes from a D to an R the overall funciton of government doesn't change. So again I say, if you take away mudslinging what do they have left to do? Discuss issues? That would be dull.
hi scott
"If you take away mudslinging then there's realy nothing left for Liberals and Conservatives to do to each other. Their reps are the same dull guys in the same dark suits that are totaly interchangeable."
i don't know, i always favoured a rational argument backed by evidence with an openess to ask questions of someone who has evidence that does not support one's own current position with the resulting possibility of changing one's own opinion ...
just kidding
What's going on? Is it because summer's over? Or school started? Yesterday it was FARK, today it's Jane Galt.
Play nice, children.
It's raining here, big boomer time. Nobody's throwing mud, because it's too wet in the air.
Maybe that's the anser -- more rain, less politics?
I normally call pleas like this "pissing in a volcano". Good luck, though!
Congratulate yourself, Megan: you've managed to run one of the most polite comment-thread-forums in the blogosphere (especially for a Top 40 site). I'd say you're only a couple of steps away from Joe Katzman's, which is the epitome of good-natured debate.
Everybody lets a snark slip past - others are just in this to snipe. Even though the majority of my modest traffic tends to read rather than discuss, my ground rules are stricter than Kevin's: if it's personal and very intentionally so, it's gone. Like Drum said, there are other weblogs for that kind of dung-launching.
Some people wonder if growing popularity of the blogosphere will invite a new class of troublemaker. I prefer to believe that weblogs have raised a general standard of conduct through awareness like this entry ("Awareness," did I say that?). And because of dedicated communication between blogs, it's a standard that can be more powerfully and universally enforced.
What about guys like me? I've been described as both a right wing lunatic---and a left wing nut! Don't I get a shoulder to cry on?
Right-wing, David, definitely. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.
The curse of the Centrist:
What do we want?
Reasonable and informed discussion of the issues!
When do we want it?
As soon as feasible!
"Run-of-the-mill name-calling" really ticks me off.
I appreciate nothing finer than a well thought out ad hominem attack.
It's when they're calling me a poohead that i start banning IP's.
It's the art of the insult that is lost, not the art of civility.
Personal insults impair rational thought. The reason for the shutdown is that people have a natural tendency to "identity-attach" to a concept or idea. Rational discourse involves at least partial suspension of that identity-attachment in order to take a look at things objectively. Calling attention to someone's self immediately chases them from their tentative, delicate departure into objectivity back into their identity, with which they are all too comfortable. It kills the possibility for growth.
Still, the comments on Kevin's posting are hilarious in their ability to justify their own rabid nature.
Jonah Goldberg recently wrote an article about what you're saying, Eva. Quite interesting.
But, But, But... As a member of the evil capitalist hegemony I do enjoy ordering people around and starving little children.
Bwwaahahahaha!!
I think that you should attack liberal trolls.
So I guess the classic Saturday Night Live riposte ("Jane, you ignorant slut....") is out??
But, there are a few bloggers out there who's insulting prose entertains me to no end. I miss Mean Mr. Mustard. I disagreed with his style and tone, but gosh darn it, he really made me smile. It's a guilty pleasure, kind of like laughing at Laverne and Shirly re-runs.
Comments are Closed.