Asymmetrical Information

J Crew's selection in the men's clearance section usually isn't much better - the clothes are made for weeble-wobbles.

Megan,
My wife is 6'0" and has the same problem finding clothes. She loves any store that even has tall clothes for women, even if they just offer a few. She is working on her MBA and for her marketing class she did a business plan for a chain of tall women clothing stores. By the way, did you know there is a Tall magazine?

Megan, maybe you missed the point of the Clearance section? If J. Crew's is anything like Lands End's Overstock section, it contains the leftover merchandise. Even if they had some leftover 8s or 10s, those are the ones that would go first, leaving the unusual sizes.

BTW, I checked and Lands End has Women's Tall Cords in the Overstock section for $21.99 (regularly $44). (Here's the long URL.) But note that they only have size 10 and 12 in Cement (looks more like a tan to me), and size 6 in Dark Navy and Light Ash Blue. I've gotten some good deals from Lands End over the years, but you frequently have to accept some unusual color, and search to find something in the right size.

Besides, if there is a woman who needs tall size 2 cords, aren't you glad she can get them marked down? She probably has enough other problems...

My daughter is a size 2, sometimes a size 3, but she is only 5'4" tall. I don't understand women's sizes, so I don't know what the supposed relationship is between "sizes" and "lengths." I do know that I have a hard time finding shirts that fit me in both the neck size and the sleeve length unless I buy a dress shirt that is sold specifically by neck size and sleeve length.

Being a size 2, she has a hard time finding "normal" clothes, but sometimes happens on some outstanding bargains. There is evidently a warehouse-style store in Norfolk that stocks only bridal gowns, and my daughter found her wedding dress there (in size 2) for $30!

Oh, I know, PJ, but I don't understand what they were doing sucking up valuable warehouse space with a size-2 35-inch inseam in the first place. More 8's, please!

must...not...be...overcome...by...tall...
...woman...fantasy...must...remain...conscious...
*flump*

I have empathy for your plight. Needing a 36" inseam, and often having difficulty in finding them with less than a 38" or more than 32" waist (is Laurel and Hardy the two ideal clothing company customers?), I can only guess that a woman with a 35" inseam must be in apparel shopping hell.

If anyone should have to order a size, it's the tall size-2 types. On the other hand, it's a good thing those items are in clearance, the poor string beans probably need the save the $$$ for the anorexia treatments.

Women's clothing sizing is odd.

What I understand was that women's clothes are made to fit a "fit model," who is usually either a size 6 or 8, and is almost always 5'8" (and conforms to a bunch of other incredibly exact measurements. It's great work if you can get it, but you can't gain or lose a pound), and that sizes above and below 6-8 are just scaled in or out, not up or down.

Which is why, at 5'2" even size 2 clothing tends to be long on me. Damn you, fit models!

Clearance sales are great for people who wear odd sizes - I'm an weird bra size, and haven't bought a full-price bra in years. Of course, they're all really odd colors and patterns, but what can you do?

Hey Jane, I'm a man, 5'5".

I can't find shoes. I'm not talking about the clearance. I can't go into a shoe store and find ANY shoes that fit me.

The only exception is Nordstrom, which may have 5 or so styles in my size (certainly not a huge selection, but I can usually find one style that's not idiotic while being comfortable too).

Quit Complaining.

You certainly have my sympathy. I lucked out in the shoe department -- I wear a size 9.5, which is within the normal range of women's shoes.

However, let me point out that I have never, so far as I can recollect, owned anything except a sweatshirt that didn't leave at least two inches of wrist protruding from the sleeves. For most of my life, three or four inches of ankle would be showing as well. And the waist of everything I own is three or four inches above my natural waist. The general effect is that all winter I look as if I'd just outgrown my clothes. Also, the way women's clothes are cut, to flair out at the waist, has the unfortunate effect of making me look pregnant in many outfits, as the flair starts at my ribs and maximizes over my waist.

No one at either end of the bell curve is well served by American clothiers, but tall women and short men are particularly abused.

At least you don't have to go to Stride Rite to buy shoes--after being laughed out of adult size shoe stores, I might add.

Not that this ever happens to me . . .

I'm lucky enough to be about average sized in shoes (10 or 10.5) but it's nigh-on impossible to find a 29" X 32" men's pant. Yes, I am rail thin, always have been. But at 5'10" and skinny, you'd think I'd be able to find some damn pants. My girlfriend is about 5'3" and a 6, so she has exactly the opposite problem: the petites are too narrow in the hips (God bless that Germanic heritage), and the regular are just too damn long. Hey, at least you can reach the top shelf in your kitchen :-).

I can wear a 33" waist, but with a 32" inseam the pants are two short and at 34" they're too long (in both inseam and crotch, natch). 33x33 cuts seem to be almost non-existent. OTOH, a 34" waist rides imperceptibly lower but usually permits me to wear a 32" inseam, but not with all brands (where, regardless, 34x33 is also impossible to find and 34x34 is just way too big). Go figure. Each time I shop for clothes the traditional Scottish approach becomes increasingly attractive, were it not for the cold winters we have here (and the risk of a summons, but we won't dwell on that one just now). I also have size 10.5-11.5 feet depending on the brand, but most shoes that size are too wide.

I sometimes find myself wondering if the standard apparel sizes are arbitrary, and ninety percent of the population wears clothing that "fits" only in the sense of a vague approximation.

Apropos Homer Simpson quote: "I hope he asks us to burn our pants next. These things are driving me crazy."

My ex used to sell fabric, patterns, and sewing machines, and taught pattern fitting classes. Becky is correct, even clothing patterns are scaled up or down from standard size model, but a real human size 12 (or 2) is not just a larger (smaller) variation on a size 6.

My only guess is as to why there are size 2 35 in inseams? When I was more plugged into this (i.e. married), there was a fair amount of discussion of 'vanity sizing' in women's clothing. As Americans have gotten heavier, clothing retailers are sizing objectively larger and larger garments in the desireable 4 to 8 range. That size 2 might not be quite as small as you think it is.

I've noticed a little bit of 'creep' in waist measurements for men's pants. I slowly drifted up to a 40" waist, though in the last few years I've noticed that, even though my weight hasn't changed much, I now pretty regularly fit into a 38.

Oh, and I second the suggestion of trying Land's End. I've bought practically my entire wardrobe from those folks. Very good folks to deal with. They make mail order fitting very easy. I had to take a couple of shots at getting the right inseam for a pair of jeans. They not only shipped a second pair before I returned the first one, but gave a free shipping label for the return.

You might pay a bit more than you do on clearance at a chain, but the clothes wear like iron. I've had some dress slacks from them for almost 10 years, none the worse for wear, when a pair of Dockers slacks are starting to look shabby after about three years.

Plus, as my ex used to say, they make clothes in real people's sizes :)

You can also try finding a good seamstress locally to do alterations. A nip and tuck here and there can make a huge difference in fit and comfort for most people. Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done to make a garment taller other than custom clothing, which isn't cheap.

Captured from a discussion thread, instructions on how to measure oneself to find properly fitting clothes. Aside from the scaling issues discussed above, standard clothes sizing doesn't address variations in proportion.

The reason the author of this FAQ, a historian by profession, has this knowledge is relevant to the economic discussions which are the main thrust of this blog. Tailoring had been the family trade for generations, but when an ancestor of hers had nothing but daughters and wanted to teach them tailoring, the German tailors guild forbade him. He moved to the United States, and raised three qualified women tailors just in time for the tailored Gibson Girl look, ensuring the family fortune.

"Oh, I know, PJ, but I don't understand what they were doing sucking up valuable warehouse space with a size-2 35-inch inseam in the first place. More 8's, please!"

Isn't the point that the stores have to guess how many of each size to make (I know, it's not "guess"...) and whereever they are wrong in their guesses you have "clearance" items? Now, their guesses will probably fall along some curve - more 8s and less 2s and 20s - but is still likely that some of their guesses will be wrong. Well, if they guess wrong and have too many 8s, we're not going to get any posts from Jane, and we're also not likely to get many posts from the 6'2", size 2 bloggers out there either, who are probably much more used to not finding the appropriate size. But if the store guesses wrong and has too many size 2s, well, we get Jane's post.

While I agree that the size 2 measurements (33-25-35) are maybe a bit low for someone as tall as Megan, a 35" inseam isn't just for people who are 6'2". I'm fairly short-waisted and long-legged for 5'5", and my preferred inseam is 31-32" depending on the style of the pants. It's not that implausible that someone could be a size 2 at 5'9" or so without being skeletal, especially she's a 15-year-old girl. A lot of the explosion in smaller sizes is because teenage girls now do more shopping in "adult" retailers like the Gap than in juniors departments.

FWIW, my personal experience doesn't really mesh with the comments about scaling clothing or size creep. I've lost a bunch of weight recently, and I've gone from wearing ankle-length jeans and khakis at size 18 to long-length at size 4; since I've only gotten slimmer, not taller, that tells me they're adjusting the inseams along with the size. As for size creep, I'd saved a few really nice size 8 dresses and formals from my high school days 10-12 years ago, and they fit me at the same time that modern size 8s fit me. There are a couple specific retailers like Old Navy whose sizes tend to run a little large, but I don't think there's been that much overall change in the last 15-odd years.

The sizes have shifted from 40-50 years ago, it's true, but they've done so fairly linearly, with "normal" sizes now being 2-14 instead of 6-16. However, I don't see how much this soothes anyone's vanity -- your feelings about your clothing size are generally determined by how many smaller and larger sizes there are, not so much by the number. A size 6 isn't that big a deal if there are still two sizes smaller; likewise, a 14 is only embarrassing because it's the biggest normal size, and it means you're right on the border of plus sizes.

I have a 50" chest with a 33" waist.

I can only buy suits in seperates. Sweaters and shirts all look goofy, as I have to buy XLs which are too tight on top and too loose on bottom. I look like a frickin clown all the time.

But I can usually find casual clothes that cover my wrists and ankles, so I don't have much right to complain.

Jane, my daughter who is 6'1" wears a size 4 and she is REALLY thin, but eats quite normally and, probably as she enters college will gain some weight and move up, but her prep years have been marked with the gaping sleeve and cuff dilemmas you describe.
Bob Dobalina, I feel your pain. At 6'8" with a 58" chest, a 42" waist, 36" inseam, and size 15EE shoes, I have to go to a real custom tailor and pay obscene prices for a classy suit. Shoes are best purchased from mailorder except for western boots which you can get custom-made at reasonable prices.
You can call your local NFL franchise and ask where the linemen shop locally and get some good tips. Most large cities have a couple of REAL tailors who can help.

Well, really, the only way to get a suit that fits right is to have it made specifically for you...but that gets quite expensive quite fast.

I once almost got hit for questioning a girl who said her dress size was a ZERO. That's right, zero. Silly me, I thought something labeled as zero would actually be, you know, NOTHING.

The problem is that clothings stores are starting to make their clothes labeled with even smaller sizes so girls feel better about themselves. Something that used to be a 3-4 is now a 1-2 though the actual size is no different. It's gotten to the point at some stores where my girlfriend is now looking at zeros on a regular basis. The insanity.

Don't complain. I'm a man, 5'5"- 5'6", and I have a 30 inch waist. It is almost impossible to find pants in my size, 30 waist, 30 inseam, even though that would seem like a fairly normal proportion. Plenty of anything, even 30 inseam, with larger waists, though. I have driven around to multiple stores looking for something in my size.

30 waist is the smallest size that is commonly put in men's sizes anyway. (Some pants manufacturers do make down to 29 or occasionally 28 in men's sizes, if one orders online.) I can only imagine how humiliating it would be to have to wear boys' sizes at my age.

Bob Dobalina, I feel your pain. At 6'8" with a 58" chest, a 42" waist, 36" inseam, and size 15EE shoes

Thanks for feeling my pain, Big Richie. With those measurements, I'd imagine that finding clothing that fits pales in comparison to finding a car that fits.

Re: clearance rack odd sizes

On my first deployment (on one of our aircraft carriers), the ship's uniform store quickly ran out of uniforms in regular (or near regular) sizes. After about a month out, the only pants left were men's size 29/36. Show me a man with a 29 inch waist and a 36 inch inseam, and I will show you a man who is an animate pencil.

Add me to the list of plaintiffs: just a few days ago I returned from a New Year's trip home with some new pants in tow, courtesy of Mom and Dad. It's miserable finding 38" x 38" jeans. Usually I (or, more often, poor Mom and Dad) have to go to a store outside of Indianapolis that literally stocks every size Levi's makes, then send me the pants. I still don't know where to buy jeans in Los Angeles, and I've lived here for almost a decade now.

Oh, and shorts? XLT, please, otherwise, well, it ain't pretty.

And yes, flying commercially and buying cars are pains in the neck, too. It's really not a tall person's world, popular opinion notwithstanding.

Timekeeper: Not anymore, but when I was 18, I routinely wore 28x36 or 29x36 in jeans. Keep in mind that jeans were worn long, but I was 6 foot, 120-125 lbs, and all legs. When sitting, my head wasn't more than an inch higher than my 5'0 grandmother. (I still can't find suits, easily. No shoulders.) And yes, I was, and am, male.

How such a person could get into the navy, I can't imagine. Wouldn't I have to be able to do a pull-up, or something?

Jane, you've obviously hit a nerve with readers (not to mention one topic that everyone loves kvetching about...)

God bless you if pants even EXIST that fit you. I'm 5'4" with a 26" inseam. Petite pants don't have a high enough rise in the waist; normal pants are about 4" too long. Pants are always too big in the waist and too small in the thighs for me anyway. The only pants I ever wear are pajama pants.

I own about 250 skirts, and that's all I wear. I take comfort in the fact Marilyn Monroe looked tubby in slacks, too.

For the men in the group that are less than 5' 9'' rumour has it that Ralph Lauren purple label will have a lot of options if you have the money. Ralph is about 5'7'' so he will make sure to have some nice clothes to wear.

I have also found Brooks Brothers to be very accomodating, and the in house tailor is normally very competent. A tailor is essential if you are not a modal size.

Uncle Sam makes uniforms that will fit a astonishing variety of human heights and widths--with the exception of obese. A well tailored look can be achieved in fact is a career must!

I'm coming late to this party, but damn! ain't this a favorite topic! I'm 5'5", and my father is 6'2". We both have the same inseam -- 32". In my ENTIRE TOWN there isn't a store that carries pants to fit me; Land's End has been the savior.
On the other end, I'm only 15" from waist to shoulders -- the smallest backpack made for adults requires at least 16" to fit. ARRRGH.

Delias and alloy carry inseams of all sizes even on clearance racks. Try thosr to websites they are pretty reasonable on thetr prices. ebay also has good deals on there clothes just make sure you shop for nwt (new with tag)

try

delias
alloy

and even ebay!

good websites

Regarding the idea of "vanity adjustment" I would like to point out that what has occurred actually is that the retailers have made the gaps between sizes smaller, centered at about a 10; instead of 1-2" differences in sizes , they now have 0.5-1" differences on the small end. On the higher sizes, there used to be 2-4" differences in measurements, now there are 1-2" differences. Thus while the old size 8 may now be a 6, the old size 14 is now a 16. I can't say this does much for the vanity of the "larger" women, who were really the ones in greater need. Of course, I wonder at the absurdity of cutting of "misses" clothing at size 14/16 when those are actually the median sizes.. if retaillers were thinking clearly one would expect they'd want to capitalize on the market of women between sizes 8 - 20, where the vast majority of women overall fit.

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