Asymmetrical Information

Well, lumber is fairly significant industry in Canada, particularly in certain regions. Plus, it's another excuse to blame the US for everything that goes wrong in Canada, which is an opportunity most government and media types can't pass up. I doubt most Canadians know any more about the details than you do, they just know we got screwed, dammit!

I suspect you were joking on the whole pronounce Paul Martin's name thing (and it's Prime Minister, not Premier), but just in case you weren't, it's pronounced "Paul Martin": French accent not required.

It's an issue that should interest those concerned with the trade distorting effects of subsidies. I'm sure more Americans can find Canada than can find Burkina Faso yet they are concerned about cotton subsidies.

Someone needs to remind that knob that the entire Canadian population is equal to all of the counties in California, south of the San Bernadino mountains.

that leaves us just 49 1/2 states left.

It's so easy to complain about America, but I noticed that for all their hatred and fear of us, they arent raising up an Army to fight us. So, "hate away" I say. When you get all done whining about how awful we are, perhaps you'd like to join hands with us and secure liberty and freedom for the rest of the world, so they can live like you do? in the comfort and freedom that this "evil regime" provides?

The Canadians parasite off the United States. These mooches deserve our contempt. And yes, when do they plan on doing their fair share regarding the war on terrorism?

It should be noted that the basic problem is that the Canadians are allowing logging on public lands without a competitive bid process. There is therefore no objective way to determine if the price charged for the right to log constitutes a below-market subsidized price or not.

Since Canada refuses to allow market mechanisms to price the logging rights, the result is that the NAFTA panel is being forced to guess what a fair price for the logging rights to trees grown on public land would be. Obviously each side is going to dispute any ruling in favor of the other side. And, lo and behold, rulings have gone each way and been appealed by both sides . . .

Canada could solve the whole problem in an instant by actually letting market forces decide how much the logging rights are worth. But the result of that might mean reduced profits for Canadian lumber companies, so it's much more productive to whine about Americans being crooks.

The Damocrats have done everything in their power, and a few things beyond their power to outsource all of our lumbering jobs, all our oil drilling and production jobs and all our refinery construction jobs, and then they turn around and blame Bush for jobs going overseas.
It is Canada's choice to determine how they will work their resources. Who is to say their clear cutting is not wiser than our clear burning? At least their way yields jobs and houses while our "enlightened" way destroys jobs and houses, and sterilizes forest lands for centuries.

One would be able to take the Canadian complaints as a bit more principled if they didn't defend their own exceptions (especially the "cultural" ones, such as the odd ban against US magazines having different ads for their Canadian runs-- because then they might be able to get more market share) so much.

Of course, one sensible economic approach is to say that if Canada is willing to sell us all their wood for less than its worth, go ahead and buy up. Loggers obviously don't like that... but Canada's far from being perfectly virtuous on farm subsidies either.

Honestly, when Australia or New Zealand comes complaining, I care a lot more because those countries do the right thing.

Once, while stationed in Korea, I knew a Canadian expat who explained to me that Canadians love the UK, yet hate Britishers. Conversely, he said, they hate the US but like Americans.

The entire nation is consumed by virulent ambivalence towards America. About 80% of them live withing TV range of the US, and they are terrified of losing their unique cultural identity. Much of their high standard of living, not to mention their ability to effectively dispense with a credible national defense, is due to sharing a border with us. So I do feel sorry for them (and I don't intend for that to sound condescending) because they are afflicted with classic little brother syndrome.

I know - I had a little brother who secretly (so he thought) idolized me and tried always to emulate me. I didn't deserve it, but how could I tell him without insulting his individuality?

About 80% of them live withing TV range of the US, and they are terrified of losing their unique cultural identity.

Heh...and what unique identity would that be? Every other year they send another actor/actress, musician, or author into the US mainstream :)

There was a joke I used to like. Canadians are just like Americans and the only way to tell them apart is to say that.

anony-mouse, good call. Why is Celine Dion a star? Because she gets airplay on US radio. You can modify the question for Jim Carrey, or Gordon Lightfoot, or Peter Jennings, or Rush (the band, not the talk radio host) and on ad infinitum.

And don't you think that really cheezes them off, up in the Great White North? Just ask Bob and Doug MacKenzie.

Steve S - you're right - what's up with Lightfoot co-opting Americana for profit? "Carefree Highway" and "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" sound like blatant cultural theft to me. (The Carefree Highway is near Phoenix, for those who don't know.) On the other hand, who gives a damn?

er...it's Gretzky, isn't it? i guess that doesn't matter. after all, he's only canadian...

Can you say Pam Anderson? The most American of women is actually a Canuck. And I think there's some subtle connection to the concept of softwood lumber in this comment, to boot.

I can tell from some of these comments that few have had direct contact with Canada or Canadians. I used to live right near the Canadian boarder in Michigan. Being near the Canadian boarder was great if you are 19 or 20 because you can just go 10 minutes across the boarder to drink. I really never saw any hatred of the US or 'Americans' while I was there. My best friend was Canadian and had no qualms about saying that the US might as well annex Canada because there really wasn't any substantial difference between the two countries. And whenever I went up there I never really felt like I left the US (except that I could get gravy and cheese curds on my french fires at Burger King). Whatever hatred is being discussed in the media is the bantering of talking heads and doesn't really reflect the man on the street attitude. If anything what they hate is the image of the US as portrayed by mass media. But subconciously at least I think most people can differentiate between the media image of the US and the reality of what the US or any other country is like when they come into direct contact with it.

Well, I'm a Canadian and I can tell you that the vast majority of us know nothing about softwood lumber.

The chattering classes know vaguely that there's a very complicated trade dispute about it and the people whose jobs are threatened know that tarrifs and duties will make their lumber uncompetitive.

Now, my question is, given that some kind of trade tribunal just ruled in Canada's favour on this issue, why are so many of the posters on this thread so totally convinced the Yanks are 100% right?

Curly,

I once saw Gretzky in a game wearing a "99 Gretkzy" jersey. If his own employer (the Rangers) couldn't get his name right, I'm willing to forgive Jane. But then again, except for that one year in the early '90s, can the Rangers get anything right?

With 40% of the economy relying on 80% of exports to the US, the situation is purely the fault of Canada.

There was a time when Canada competed with the EU nations for Asia but it just became easier/lazier to take advantage of NAFTA and concentrate on the US. This is a tempest of their own making. No point in blaming your biggest customer for buying your products, especially if you are too lazy to get other customers.

With NAFTA, any canadian with good talents (technology, acting, singing, etc.) goes south for anywhere from 2 to 100 times what they would make in Canada. i.e. me.

At this rate in the brain drain, the only people left will be trailer park boys.

Canadians have nothing to complain about and they should get over themselves.

I LOVE Canada. I sent my daughter to college in PEI. It's great! I kicked my daughter out of the country, not just the house. I get a 30% discount because of the exchange rate. She is allowed to use regular student loans without any special provisions. The tuition costs are lower, even after adjusting for the exchange rate. AND, she sends me the absolute best maple syrup.

Plus, how can any man have anything against the country that gave us Pam Anderson.

"Now, my question is, given that some kind of trade tribunal just ruled in Canada's favour on this issue, why are so many of the posters on this thread so totally convinced the Yanks are 100% right?"

It's not that we're convinced America is right, it's that we don't care!

I'm not in the lumber business, so I don't care. No one I know is in the limber business, so I don't care.

Lumber is a big industry in some parts of the US, but compared to the whole US economy it's small potatoes. Consider that and ask yourself: How many people in the US should care?

Some of the people who left comments are talking about US efforts against terrorism. They aren't trying to change the subject but point out something that Canadians seem to have forgotten.

First off is that we've been listening to years about how every evil in Canada is really the fault of the US. Some punk shoots a store clerk during a robbery in Ottawa and it would've never happened if those stupid Americans would have draconian un-Constituional gun control like they do up north. Somebody gets drunk and chops up his wife with an axe in Calgary and he would've never done it except for those immoral and shocking images on American TV.

So we're tired of listening to Canada dodge responsibility for their own failings by blaming us.

Second is that Canada has let it's military rust away to nothing in order to pay for Socialist programs. They can do this because they're sheltered under US protection, but they still bitched up a storm with our actions to attack terrorism at the source. That's destroyed a great deal of goodwill that we might have felt towards Canada.

So if Canada got the short end of the stick so far as lumber is concerned, well, who cares? Go try to sell it to someone else if it'll make you feel better. Refuse to sell it to us and it won't hurt enough for most of the US to even notice, but it will certainly give your economy a kick in the groin.

James

while it may come as a big surprise to you, there are a lot of Canadians who like Americans and think that overall the US has been a force for good in the world. I count myself among them.

I see a lot of straw men being punched down in these posts, but not one rational explanation of why it's OK for the US to violate the terms of the NAFTA agreement. The running theme seems to be Canadians are smug so they should stick their softwood lumber where it hurts.

Also, this idea that any Canadian worth a damn leaves Canada to move south of the border is pure American hubris. Lots of talented Canadians do indeed leave for very good reasons and, believe it or not, lots stay for equally good reasons.

ccc, you know, I read the article and as far as I could tell things are moving towards a solution. Perhaps not as fast as Canadians would like, but still... The only thing I found confusing was the leading editorial comment prefacing the article (and repeated above in Jane's comments).

And JR Rummel's comment about how most Americans simply don't care is true. His conclusions while perhaps a bit mean spirited echo Jane's. Sorry, that's the way it is. The smaller countries in Europe feel the same way about Germany and/or France. It's your (collective) lot: you're going to have to live with it.

I will add that the distinction between individual Canadians and their government is probably unfortunate. However, the Canadian government, as represented by the Liberal Party, seems to take great pleasure espousing all manner of leftist and more often than not anti-American BS. Add to that the often anti-American antagonism of Canada's journalists, this then becomes the image of Canada that most Americans see. And since those individual Canadians continue to re-instate the Liberals and buy Canadian journalism "products", it becomes very difficult for many Americans to see Canadians as being friendly towards America.

They [the Canadians] can do this because they're sheltered under US protection, but they still bitched up a storm with our actions to attack terrorism at the source.

Which actions were those?

I just want to point out that Canada only gave us PART of Pam Anderson. Dow Corning is a US company.

And, I might point out, the pristine, natural Pamela Anderson was MUCH more attractive than the product of Dow Corning and surgery.

IMHO, of course.

Burp! Damn Molsons. Can't ever talk up here without burping.

Hey, cut us some slack wouldya. If it wasn't for the 'I Hate America' meme we would have to actually deal with the fact that we are a smaller, less innovative, less productive, less interesing country which is completely dependant on America for our economic lives and our security. It's a lot to have to deal with, eh?

Burp. Come on up and visit sometime. I'll put a moose on the barbie!

Paul

Which actions were those?

Nothing. None. There were no actions. Crawl back under your isolated bridge and don't come out for another three years. The Principles of Logical Reasoning will handle everything in your absence.

I know what softwood lumber is.

Of course, I live in Oregon, and I see log trucks every day on my way to work. (Mind you, I live in Portland, which is a city of a million people...)

calm,cool: I see people suggesting that NAFTA rules are not being violated, because nobody knows what the "correct" value for public-land lumber is. I didn't see anyone, offhand, suggesting that the US should be able to ignore rules all it wants. I've been following this dispute (at, I confess, a low level of attention) for a few years now, and it's always seemed to boil down to that, and that hasn't changed.

That one panel just ruled pro-Canada doesn't mean anything much, given that it's being challenged and is not a "final" resolution in any sense. But, as others said, the real thing is we just don't really care much.

Hell, Canada doesn't seem to care much outside of the Western Provinces where all the timber is, except as a minor point of "stick it to the US" pride.

The real question, to my eyes, is why the Canadian government, which evidently controls the timber, doesn't just open it up to competitive bidding, and watch the entire US case for tariffs instantly melt away...

Maybe I'll ask my Canadian spies when I'm up there in a few weeks. If, that is, we can remember through the haze of cheap Canadian beer.

Personally, I'm more than happy to see Canada win on softwood lumber. However, I think "crooks" is a rather strong term to use over a relatively honest trade dispute. As for the rest, I was just funnin' ya. I know how to pronounce Paul Martin's name. I even know how to spell "Gretzky".

Canadian public sentiment can be a little . . . well, rambunctious about America. And its foreign and social policy rhetoric has gotten increasingly aggressively anti-American (though Mr Martin may be trying to change that). Americans have always ignored it, partly because we're, well, ignorant, and partly because most people figured it must be more than a little annoying to be stuck next to a neighbour ten times your size who gets all the publicity, especially if your citizens keep getting mistaken for Americans every time you go abroad. Right now, however, Americans are a little sensitive about what our allies say about us, and some of them are giving a little piss and vinegar back. I can't say that anything in the comments has been any worse than what I've seen on those CBC man on the street shows where the average Canadian informs us that Americans are a bunch of poor-hating, elderly-killing, gun nuts with a Rambo complex, too stupid and cruel to adopt the obviously superior Canadian health care and social welfare systems, and too macho to understand that the civilised way to wield military power is not to have any. Americans, whose military spending has made it possible for Canada, France, Germany et al. to decide not to have a military capable of projecting force much farther than the nearest Tim Hortons, are understandably rather sensitive to this last criticism.

That said, guys, be nice to the Canadians. They're no more worthy of stereotyping than we are. And really, they're a great bunch of guys and gals. Remember, we all have to share a continent, so let's try to get along, okay?

jdm, i don't mind that you yanks devote no time to thinking about canadians while we are obsessive about the US of A. It is, as you say, a consequence the big country/small country relationship.

HOwever, I always find it amusing when I'm told by Americans that I really want to be one, and yes, I've heard that on several occasions.

Also, please leave behind this "it's not you but your government we don't like" meme. That's the same as all those Euros who say they're anti-Bush but not Anti-American. Oh, really?

We elected the government and they represent us. Personally, I didn't vote for Chretien, but I'm a Democrat and that's the way it goes...

Uh, Jane, France has one of the most powerful military machines after the US, certainly right up there with the UK.

Softwood lumber: made from fast-growing trees (eg, pine).

Hardwood lumber: made from slower-growing trees (eg, oak). Hardwood takes a lot longer to grow so is more expensive.

What's there to know? Do Canadian pines say "eh" a lot?

Yep, it is tough being Canadian. Carrying around all that hatred of America is burdensome. Sorry to see from this thread that at least some Americans now hate Canada. We can be mutually burdened.

Nice comparison of Canada to California. Is Alberta our Orange county? Shasta equals Nunavut? Toronto suburbs = LA.

See you all when the draft re-starts.

CC Canadian,
Referring to people as "yanks" is name calling. I always find it amusing that "liberals" resort to name calling the most....

> I always find it amusing when I'm told by Americans that I really want to be one

To a large extent, as the joke above cleverly put it, you are already.

In point of fact, however, the cultural dominance of America has probably hardened and even amplified the cultural differences such that Canada is quite aware of the things that make Canada different from the US - as few as they are.

> please leave behind this "it's not you but your government we don't like" meme

I didn't say this; remember we don't care about you. You wrote defensively about how many Canadians like Americans & America. My point was that it doesn't matter what individual Canadians think because the message sent by the Canadian government and media belies it.

> We elected the government and they represent us

Exactly. And so when Americans get irked with the anti-American rhetoric, *you* might want to leave behind the "it's not you but your government we don't like" meme.

> Sorry to see from this thread that at least some Americans now hate Canada.

You're not important enough to hate... although that utterly porous Canadian immigration policy (except for macho gay people), may end up causing a harsh word or two if a terro- er, militant (group) creates a new WTC-style disaster in the US and enters from Canada.

CCC -- I am second to none in my admiration for the French military, but the fact remains that neither it, nor any other industrial nation besides the US, has the ability to project significant force beyond its borders without US assistance. The defense strategy of pretty much every Western nation today adds up to "We'll hold 'em off for a few days until the Yanks get here". Not that I mind, really. But I do mind, awfully, when we are then criticised for spending all this money on military stuff. And I see red when citizens of these nations start treating their low level of spending as a product of their superior morality, rather than their flagrant mooching.

However, this is all really off the topic of the post, and it wasn't really cricket to start bringing up all our niggling grievances about Canada off of a basically silly post about trade disputes. There are anti-American fatheads in every country, including our own -- I wasn't trying to imply that Canada, as a nation, is somehow in the wrong. I was targeting this particular fathead, who is a fathead, and should no more be taken to represent his country than we want our fatheads to be taken as representative of ours.

t

Geez Pat in Ca, I thought it was only an insult to call someone a yank south of the mason/dixon line. I don't mind it when people call me a Canuck or when they make "eh" jokes. I think you're being overly politically correct and need to lighten up a bit.

Yes, jdm, Canadians have a lot in common with Americans, but sometimes I think maybe we're more like the Aussies, because of the Brit colonial heritage, or the KIwis because of the Brit colonial heritage and the small country complex. Hard to say.

It's interesting that you characterise my comments as "defensive." Can't a Canadian say she's an admirer of the States without being labelled defensive? Or perhaps it's the fact that I defended the Canadian position on softwood lumber that makes me defensive? Whatever, I don't get it.

And finally, given that all 30 million of us are so totally inconsequential, you're expending an awful lot of energy on this subject.

Jane,

Thanks for answering. I agree that the guy you originally referred to is a fathead. And I agree that no military anywhere can be compared to that of the US. But there is, however, a huge difference between the military capability of France and that of Canada. Canada's military is a joke. France's is not.

ccc

Look, the lumber thing is very important to Canada, much less important to the US. I admit to being allergic to most tariffs anyway, but this one strikes me as a good candidate for oblivion. Besides, we share the world's longest unfortified frontier, and if the price of good relations with our neighbors is cheaper 2-by-4's, I say pay it.

I'm even inclined to let them off the hook for burning Buffalo NY during the War of 1812. It may actually have been a good idea, but well in advance of its time.

ccc, I think commonalities you have with Aussies and Kiwis are exactly (some of) the things that distinguish you from 'mericans.

I read your post from May 5, 2004 11:45 AM as being somewhat defensive but not necessarily in a bad way; however, if that is incorrect, I apologize.

Geez, there's 30 million?!? I was working on old data, only 20 mill. That changes everything. Sorry about that too ;-) Besides, this returns to your point about individuals vs. um, groups. I may be interested in Canada (I am), but that doesn't mean that all my countrymen are (they aren't).

CCC,
I guess you didn't see light in my statement where I called you a "liberal" and then I was sparring with you for calling people names.

Who needs to lighten up? :) :) :) :)

But it is true that "liberals" do most of the hate speech. Anecdotally speaking of course.

Which actions were those?

Nothing. None. There were no actions. Crawl back under your isolated bridge and don't come out for another three years. The Principles of Logical Reasoning will handle everything in your absence.
Posted by Logical Reasoning Fairy

Do the "Principles of Logical Reasoning" include insulting your interlocutor?

"That said, guys, be nice to the Canadians. They're no more worthy of stereotyping than we are. And really, they're a great bunch of guys and gals. Remember, we all have to share a continent, so let's try to get along, okay?"

"I was targeting this particular fathead, who is a fathead, and should no more be taken to represent his country than we want our fatheads to be taken as representative of ours."

I used to have a job in law enforcement, so I'm rather interested in the subject. Since I'm interested in other countries and other cultures, I actively seek out and read about foreign police forces and law enforcement efforts.

So for decades I've been reading anti-American screeds masquerading as thoughtful commentary in the Canadian press about America. In fact, I'm very hard pressed to come across even a single example of balanced reporting on my pet subject.

I think this is significant. It shows an almost pathological hatred of the US.

It might just be that this one fellow is a fathead that doesn't represent Canada as a whole. If so, then why are there so damn many fatheads??? How come it's almost impossible to find anyone who isn't a fathead?

If this isn't representative of the culture as a whole, then how can you actually tell? What gives you the idea that it isn't?

Looks to me that the people who don't hate the US are the fringe up in Canada. Crackpots that are tolerated like curbside preachers are tolerated in New York.

But, hey, I'm a practical man. I have to go with the evidence in front of me.

James

Do the "Principles of Logical Reasoning" include insulting your interlocutor?

The Principles of Logical Reasoning espouse logical discourse, and being as they are well versed in your various prior shenanigans on this site (and perpetual failing grades in Dr. Rita Rational's correspondence course), they opted for a pre-emptive strike.

If the phrase "pre-emptive strike" (and the concept of engaging in one after considering your interlocutor's previous capabilities) should ring any particularly resonant bells, contemplate why, and then answer your own earlier question. To do so would be a wonderful exercise in logical reasoning. Which, my dear boy, you desperately need.

i've been overseas working engineering and construction for 20 years.

nothing tops a canadian, pinning on some dumb ass maple leaf to a work suit or tee shirt, so the locals in Zambia or Abu Dhabi realize he's not an american. it's a leak.

almost as much as the way they establish global credability by comparison to american institutions. you know, MCGill is the HARVARD of Canada-sure, Joe Blow Constructions is the BECHTEL of Canada. check

simply a country of turkeys that sell their immigration programs to the great unwashed in every hotel business center 24/7 around the globe. forgot, it's because they dig diversity.

Gretsky eh?

(waves at James B. over at the Bujold fan list)

It's as unfair to tar all Canadians with the same brush as it is to tar all Americans for the excesses of New York and California.

This Kansan rather likes the good folks of Manitoba, Alberta... whenever the western provinces want US statehood I'm right there for 'em.

I wonder how much the Quebec-er's would want, cash money now, for the whole lot?

64 - 40 or fight, I say.

Since we're discussing Canadians wearing maple leaf buttons in Djibouti, I thought I'd mention my massage therapist. A true star of the body work world but, alas, a typical self-hating American. Upon finding out that I'm going on a trip to Paris next week she told me that when she and her husband are traveling overseas they tell people that they are Canadian so that they won't be considered to be ignorant, uncivilized oafs. Sigh.

James Rummel (I changed a few words):
"First off is that we've been listening to years about how every evil is really the fault of the US culture. Some punk shoots a store clerk during a robbery in Detroit and it would've never happened if those stupid Americans would have draconian un-Constituional gun control like they do up north. Somebody gets drunk and chops up his wife with an axe in California and he would've never done it except for those immoral and shocking images on American TV."

"For decades I've been reading anti-American screeds masquerading as thoughtful commentary in the US press about America. In fact, I'm very hard pressed to come across even a single example of balanced reporting on my own pet subject.

I think this is significant. It shows an almost pathological hatred of the US.

It might just be that these fellows are fatheads that don't represent the US as a whole. If so, then why are there so damn many fatheads??? How come it's almost impossible to find anyone who isn't a fathead?

If this isn't representative of the culture as a whole, then how can you actually tell? What gives you the idea that it isn't?

Looks to me that the people who don't hate the US are the fringe there. Crackpots that are tolerated like curbside preachers are tolerated in New York.

But, hey, I'm a practical man. I have to go with the evidence in front of me."


Answers for your questions (not perfect answers, but I'm not the Preemptive Nastiness Fairy):
-- They're everywhere, they're everywhere!!! Why, some days I can even find one in the mirror.
-- "law enforcement efforts" Sounds to me like you're reading bureaucrats (mostly cops), politicians and big media. You were expecting a low fathead quotient? On the grounds that those groups are a representative sample of the States so it must be the same in Canada?


If you talk to Canadians - as opposed to those who purport to speak for them - you will find most "anti-Americanism" involves specific examples of fatheadedness in the US. Although they can forget it in the heat of the moment, there's more than enough Canadian fatheadedness to go with it to make it rather hard to think of the US as especially bad.

Unless, of course, you're the sort of person who really wants to. There are clearly a few commenters here who hate the other country. Interesting how so far every one of the "pathological haters" is Canadian, right?

Personally, I try not to worry too much about fatheads. They don't matter in the long run, and people with an obsessive fixation on the fatheadedness of others... well, let's just say I don't find Moore and Coulter to be adequate role models.


"... un-Constituional gun control ... up north."
"So if Canada got the short end of the stick so far as lumber is concerned, well, who cares?"
-- Your grasp of the law is so good you think Canadian laws are "un-Constitutional", your response to injustice is to say "who cares?" and you used to work in law enforcement. And you have a grievance against foreigners who confuse belligerent chauvinism with patriotism. And fatheads. Ooo-kay.




Re the softwood lumber dispute:
It's a good thing American consumers have a nanny state to keep those evil Canadians from any possibility of subsidizing them. This is the fourth time in 20 years that the lumber lobby has persuaded the US government that corporate welfare is more important than the welfare of all the rest of its citizens. That may not be illegal... but I'd sure call it crooked. Good thing it's worse in Canada.

Well, I grew up in Canada (coastal BC fishing/logging town) and I'm thrilled to see so many people concerned with the softwood lumber dispute, particularly so many Americans. I'm going to assume that most of the real xenophobes haven't shown up in this thread because of unresolved issues with the phrase "soft wood".

My personal take on all this is that anti-American rhetoric has always sold well with certain portions of the public, and it's not difficult to find things Americans have done to piss off your average patriotic Canadian, from LBJ's near-physical assault on Lester Pearson to the failure to notice or remember when Canadian troops have fought alongside the Americans to the cancellation of the Avro Arrow for Christ's sake (inexplicably, in my view, blamed on the US).

Two anecdotes: one summer in the early 90's I spent part of one fishing season arguing with the cook on the seine boat I was working on about US vs. Canadian military: she was absolutely convinced that the a) US army could be decisively defeated by the Canadian army, and b) the Canadian army had pretty much single-handedly won WW2.
The other story involved JFK jr. and his arrival in (I believe)Port Alberni to back up some environmental cause or other (save the great marbled crested tufted horned Limax Maximus or something). The mayor of Pt. McNeill was quoted in the local paper as saying "Where's Lee Harvey Oswald when you need him?"

Actually, neither of those has anything to do with softwood lumber, I just like remembering them. Ahh, the good old North Island.

I should point out that "Trailer Park Boys" is a really good show.

Perhaps Canadian attitudes toward America are similar to American attitudes toward France. "Public thinkers" and politicians love to push the button, a significant share of the population takes it seriously, but most people find it all silly and vaguely embarrassing.

I was in Amsterdam for several days and it is clear to me that "anti-Bush, not anti-American" is a very sincere and plausible ideological stance. People could have harped on this issue with me, but they didn't. They were genuinely curious about Bush and whether he would be reelected.

Larry Knerr -- don't be too hasty to diss the Fairy. She's some sort of bizarre regular around here, and with respect to Orbitron, she called that one correctly. Hang around the Jane Galt forums for a while and you'll eventually understand, or else do a

"site:janegalt.net Oribtron"

in Google. He has a history of trying to derail intelligent conversations here by attacking Bush, the War on Terror, or anything else he doesn't like, even in threads that are not ostensibly about such topics.

"-- Your grasp of the law is so good you think Canadian laws are "un-Constitutional",..."

Actually, my grasp of the law is so good that I'm not proposing that another country adopt laws that would clearly be illegal within it's borders. Considering how Canadians keep insisting that the US should pass gun control laws that mimic their own, this is a distinction that Canadians (including yourself) simply can't fathom.

"You were expecting a low fathead quotient? On the grounds that those groups are a representative sample of the States so it must be the same in Canada?"

The question here isn't if it's a representative sample or not. The question is where's all of these we-DON'T-hate America folks that everyone insists are all over Canada. Can't find nary a one in your press.

Just to be fair, I want you to find ten accounts of different crimes that occurred down here where someone says Canada is to blame. Do that and you'll have made your point. Otherwise you're wrong, and obviously so.

"And you have a grievance against foreigners who confuse belligerent chauvinism with patriotism."

Actually I have a problem with anyone who tries to blame their own failings on someone else, foreign or otherwise. It's particularly bad when someone is receiving a benefit from the same source their using as their scapegoat.

"There are clearly a few commenters here who hate the other country. Interesting how so far every one of the "pathological haters" is Canadian, right?"

We're in perfect agreement, even though I suspect that you're being sarcastic.

See, Americans can give a rat's ass about Canada. Oh, the money's colorful and there's some good fishing up there, but that's pretty much all we think about it. Generally we don't have anything against you guys, and most Americans fondly remember your sacrifices in WWII. We'd also love it if you dropped your Socialist programs and started to shoulder your share of the defense burden, but we're not holding our breath about that.

This might rankle, but that's the way it is. We have a mild, absent-minded affection for Canada and Canadians. At least we do as long as we're not the curious sort who actually reads the news from other countries. As soon as we find out what's being said in the popular press up there our affection and sympathy and affection disappear pretty quick.

That tends to happen when you run into bigots who insist that someone embodies all of these terrible character flaws just because of the place of their birth.

"This is the fourth time in 20 years that the lumber lobby has persuaded the US government that corporate welfare is more important than the welfare of all the rest of its citizens."

So you're saying that duties on imported lumber hurts "all the rest" of US citizens?

Remember when I said "Who cares?" That should have clued you in that it's an insignificant issue down here. In fact, it's so insignificant that the vast majority of the US population isn't even aware of it.

If you're thinking that duties hurt Canadian citizens, I'll certainly agree with you on that. I'm even an advocate of free trade, which means that I'd love to see most restrictions on international trade disappear. But I'm not so naive as to think that it'll happen.

James

Certainly the haters on this thread don't seem to be the Canadians, but clearly Canadians who would visit a blog like this are unlikely to be of the America-hating variety.

I think it's silly to deny that a large portion of Canadians are anti-American. They are -- although I would say that only a small percentage of the anti-Americans are real haters/fatheads. Most are kind of mildly anti-american just because they're brought up on yank-dissing.

Anti-americanism is very pervasive in Canada but after a while you learn to tune it out. It's kind of like listening to a friend go on and on about her loser boyfriends. At first, it's mildly interesting but by boyfriend number six you just want to tell her to get a life.

In any case my daughter came home from school yesterday (grade 4) and told me how some kid did his oral presentation on how he wanted to get a gun and shoot George W. and how his father said that was a good idea. Apparently the teacher was not happy but the kids were beside themselves with laughter. This is where it all begins.

So I think Brittain33 is very wrong when he says it's just public thinkers and politicians who like to push buttons. It's far more that that. I also think he's even more wrong about France, which, outside the middle east, and historially is the most America-hating country there is. French anti_Americanism is far far stronger than Canadians'. And people do indeed take it very sriously, which is why there are a number of books about the French obsession with dissing the United States.

I will say once again that the "anti-Bush but not
anti-American" thing is extremely facile. It may be "sincere" but it's hardly a "plausible ideological stance" as Brittain33 maintains. It falls to pieces the minute you start examining it.

And finally anti-Americans have a lot more in common with self-hating Americans than Canadians like myself. I worship Tony BLair and Christopher Hitchens, but i think it's very troubling that the USA doesn't have a better president at this important point in its history.

And one final note to Mr. Rummel, from a PR perspective you might want to stop harping on how inconsequential we are and how Canadian anti-Americanism is just a source of amusement to you. It would strike me as extremely patronizing at the best of the times and, given the kind of anti-American hysteria in a large portion of the world, it"s short-sighted and stupid.

whoops, I meant the kind of anti-Americanism we're seeing in the rest of the world...

I see that I got beaten to the pithiest comments I could've made, but...

None of the discussion or USA-bashing changes the fact that logging and milling are industries that both rely greatly on OJT (excepting the hardcore forestry roles, which require extensive plant science knowledge typically acquired in a university setting) and pay living wages, and are important to the local, rural economies that rely on them. I should know; I call Oregon home, and the very industry that built this state found it too expensive some twenty years since to do extensive business here.

As I read it, both sides have been reluctant to work out a compromise, because they both want to keep employment in those sectors at a high level for their respective economies.

...And if they do compromise but screw up the numbers, the risk that their current markets will turn to tropical softwoods (read: Third World sources) is not one to be ignored.

The whole damn thing is a mess, a total mess.

As for the bashing, let's face it, the USA makes a big, tempting target. I say, enjoy it while it lasts - two generations of underinvestment in innovation for the sake of profit is going to come back to haunt the U.S. economy IMO.

(If the sitemistress or her compadre can shoot that last assertion down, I'll welcome the news... but that's my gut feeling, right there.)

The last discussion here about forest products (that I recall, anyway) was so much more entertaining.

The softwood lumber dispute seems to be a situation where the issues are legitimately in dispute, and neither side is clearly in the right. As far as broader trade issues, I think it's safe to say that between subsidies and outright protectionism both countries are guilty in enough areas that lectures from either are a little tough to swallow.

Regarding anti-Americanism in Canada, it absolutely exists but for the most part it is at the low-level, little brother syndrome that Steve S. referred to above. Real anti-Americanism (and pro-Americanism) tends to follow a broad left/right split. Our Government leans left, as does much of our nationally-prominent media (CBC, Toronto Star), so if that is what you are basing your observations on, then you will not be getting a fair picture. Media such as the National Post or various Sun newspapers or the Global television network tend to be much more sympathetic to the pro-American viewpoint.

I've actually never heard anyone blame crime levels in Canada on US gun control policies. I'm sure some crackpots have, but it certainly isn't a widely accepted viewpoint. But I'm not sure that Canada lobbying the US for tighter gun control is necessarily inappropriate. The 2nd Amendment seems to be a topic of debate even within the US. And certainly the US has not been shy about making its feelings known regarding steps towards drug legalization in Canada.

Re: the LR Fairy - I always assumed it was a he. Or perhaps some sort of bizarre, magical creature of indeterminate gender. I wonder how he/she/it would fare in the case Jane noted below? Not enough swish in the walk, but extra points for the wings, perhaps?

> I wonder how much the Quebec-er's would want, cash money now, for the whole lot?

Zero, zero, zero! The way I figure it, the rest of Canada should pay us for rescuing them from Quebec!

ccc, first, you misread my post with regard to France. I was talking about the attitudes of Americans toward France, not vice versa. We've been experiencing a resurgence of "bash the frogs" in the states, and I feel confident in saying that the number of Americans who agree with restauranteurs dumping French wine in the sewers is large but not overwhelming and probably not the majority. Many people believe "freedom fries" is embarrassing and silly. I'm sure many Canadians similarly disagree with some of the more extreme comments made about America in the press.

Secondly, I've been to Canada a dozen times and met many Canadians living in the United States, and all I can say from my own experiences is that a vocal minority of Canadians have a real chip on their shoulder about America, but the rest don't feel compelled to harp on any bad feelings they may have. My point about public thinkers and politicians is that they will make extreme statements in order to score points, and that in my experience, many or most Canadians would not consider such statements appropriate for their own discourse. They may dislike or resent America on a low level, but not enough to let it override common sense or decorum, or even to think about much. This I do not consider "pervasive anti-Americanism." It's too close to the argument that all or nearly all white Americans are pervasive racists or other such nonsense that makes real dialogue or respect impossible.

I refuse to consider the behavior of five year olds as representative of a whole country for obvious reasons.

It falls to pieces the minute you start examining it.




Go ahead and poke it to pieces, then. Don't just assert.

By the way, I suspect our discussion may founder over different meanings for "anti-American." I'm curious to hear how you define it. I'd define it as coarse bigotry that prejudices one's judgment of the American government's actions and attributes negative attributes to the large majority of Americans.

A few points Brittain33, Canadians who live in the US are obviously not going to be harbouring serious anti-american sentiment so I think your sample is somewhat skewed.

Also, I said MILD anti-Americanism is pervasive and while I said, a large portion of Canadians are anti-american, I don't even know if it's a majority or not. Also, if they were challenged on their anti-americanism they might very well acknowledge its foolishness but my point is they are seldom challenged.

This is the reason why anti-Americanism is pervasive while racism is not. Because it is not socially acceptable to make racist remarks and you will be stigmnatized for it. You only have to listen to any Cnadian call-in show to know that anti-Americanism, on the other hand, is completely acceptable.

As for "I'm anti-American but not anti Bush," well what does that mean?

That you don't accept American democracy?

That you don't like the half of the country that voted Bush? Or respect them?

That you respect them even though they voted for Bush, who you think is Satan? Hard to see how that can be reconciled?

and then what exactly is it you don't like about Bush? that he's unilateralist? that he invaded iraq? so, then how do you like all the americans who support those actions?

Also I hardly something as silly as "freedom fries" can be comepared to decades Of French anti-Americanism. I have French colleagues who studied in the US. Back when Clinton was president they stormed out of their relatives' home back in France because their families could not accpet the fact that they had moved to the US.

I too used to think anti-americanism was NOT serious but when I look now at what's going on in the world, I think I seriously underestimated its effects.

That being said, I think sentiment could be turned around pretty quickly because there's an element of hysteria in what we're seeing.

"And one final note to Mr. Rummel, from a PR perspective you might want to stop harping on how inconsequential we are and how Canadian anti-Americanism is just a source of amusement to you. It would strike me as extremely patronizing at the best of the times and, given the kind of anti-American hysteria in a large portion of the world, it"s short-sighted and stupid."

Something tells me that you didn't get my meaning from the previous posts, so I'll do my best to explain myself.

You have to understand this soft lumber debate from an American perspective. It's insignificant. It's tiny. It doesn't mean anything to the vast majority of Americans. Heck, most Americans aren't even aware of it!

There's one inescapable conclusion to all of this: You guys need the US lots more than the US needs Canada.

This isn't to say that you should just roll over and take it. That's why you have a government, which is exactly the same reason we have a government. But it's not the lumber dispute that interests me. It's the strong anti-American element that seems to be present in your culture.

Canadians are also hampered by the fact that they've gutted their military in order to fund social programs. That means Canada isn't trying very hard to do it's fair share for it's own defense.

You guys obviously think that's okay because you know that the Americans will take up the slack.

So Canadians are tiny compared to the US in every respect except unused land area. You rely on our good nature for your security, amongst other things. Yet you insist on banging the anti-American drum at every chance! And, I might add, the vast majority of criticism that I've read is unwarranted and an attempt to avoid placing the blame with Canadian institutions, which is where it belongs.

Deliberately insulting the very people you need for your defense. And all it takes for some very serious consequences is for Americans to start reading your popular press.

Isn't this incredibly short sighted? Isn't this indescribably stupid?

One last point. If I'm reading you comment correctly you actually think that it's the US which should be seeking Canadian approval. That pointing out Canadian failings and relative influence in the world will somehow bring on negative consequences. Bad feeling will be increased in Canada, or something.

Time for a wake up call. Why should we care? What are you bringing to the table so that we should care? You going to increase your defense spending so we can reduce the risk to our own people for our mutual defense, maybe? Oh, that'll teach us!

Besides, I've been aware of your blatant anti-Americanism for 20 years. How in the world could you guys get any worse?

James

Softwood lumber is a joke in Canada. No one understands it but the people involved.

Now, I'll grant you that softwood lumber is so below the radar in the US, no one would think to joke about it.

Mr. Rummel, you seem to miss the points made by other posters that not all Canadians are anti-american. There are pro-American newspapers, think tanks, TV networks and even people.

Also, saying government institutions are anti-american is a crock. It entirely depends on the government in power.

It's as ridiculous to proclaim that all Canadians are anti-American as it is to declare that all Americans are Republican.

As for our military, again many of us know it's a complete joke. But the anti-americans don't think you yanks will protect us, they don't believe there are any nasty people who want to attack us so they don't care.

Now, once again and for the very last time:

1) Many Canadians are anti-American, most mildly, some virulently

2) Many Canadians are pro-American

3) Whether one believes it's for reasons of substance or reasons of perception, Americans have a huge problem right now with anti-Americanism. (For Gawd's ake even your president has set up a special office to improve the image of the US)

I'm bowing out.

"Mr. Rummel, you seem to miss the points made by other posters that not all Canadians are anti-american. There are pro-American newspapers, think tanks, TV networks and even people."

That's just great! I'm so glad to hear that.

Maybe you'd be so kind as to provide some names so I can go check them out for myself.

"It's as ridiculous to proclaim that all Canadians are anti-American as it is to declare that all Americans are Republican."

That's a very good point, and it's well taken.

"3) Whether one believes it's for reasons of substance or reasons of perception, Americans have a huge problem right now with anti-Americanism. (For Gawd's ake even your president has set up a special office to improve the image of the US)"

Oh, that's just an acknowledgment of reality. It's finally hit home that most of the world doesn't have a free or fair press, and we've finally decided to try and counter some of the more blatant propaganda.

Not that we need to so far as Canada is concerned. Not with all of those pro-American TV networks and newspapers that you were talking about.

James

and I feel confident in saying that the number of Americans who agree with restauranteurs dumping French wine in the sewers is large but not overwhelming and probably not the majority.

Is THAT still going on? Can anyone point me to the next location so I can get a prime seat under the sewer grate?

As for "I'm anti-American but not anti Bush," well what does that mean?

Beats me. I don't even understand what this sentence is doing in the discussion or why you're asking me about it.

Also, why are going on about French anti-Americanism? I never said a thing about it.

Pro-American (or at least, non-biased) Canadian media personalities include, amongst others, newspaper columnists like Mark Steyn, and the odd prominent TV/Radio personality like the CBC's Rex Murphy.

Besides his Cross-Country Check-up gig on CBC Radio, Rex does irregular commentaries for The National (CBC Nightly news) which are archived here:
http://www.cbc.ca/national/rex/index.html

Note, in particular, the entry for April 10, 2003, subtitled "George Bush got it right".

Rex isn't pro-American in the Don Cherry sense of the U.S. 'being one of us' as opposed to 'one of them' (typically in reference to Europeans). But he certainly can't be accused of Anti-American bias in any way.

Anybody else there, Craig? Steyn and some guy on Canadian radio doesn't really support the idea that there's plenty of non-biased media that don't automatically take the "America Sucks!" line every chance they get.

James

Uh, James, an earlier poster mentioned the National Post newspaper, the Global TV network, the sun newspaper chain, etc.

Brittain33, I made my post late at night and clearly needed an editor. However, aside from the obvious mistake, I think the rest should be pretty clear

"Uh, James, an earlier poster mentioned the National Post newspaper, the Global TV network, the sun newspaper chain, etc."

Thanks, CCC. I'll check them out.

James

Fascinating thread. I'm surprised that nobody has raised the root cause of Canadian anti-Americanism. I agree with much of what has been said here. Canada does need the US more than the US needs Canada (30 vs 300 million people). Canada does suffer from some sibling rivalry. Canada does, at times, feel as though the country is ignored by our brothers and sisters to the South (and, at times, we are correct). That said, anti-Americanism in Canada is nothing new. Remember that the English part of British North American (Upper Canada or, roughly, modern day Ontario) received a massive influx of political refugees in the late 1770's. These refugees fled the US, by foot, during and after the US revolution as Loyalists. Ultimately, in my view, the influence of Loyalists on public debate and comment is one of the distinguishing features of Canada. Not only do we have all the issues which I mention (above) and which others have mentioned but some of our earliest settlers arrived with an anti-American bias.

The fact that we need to remember is that we are close, both geographically and historically. Our political and legal traditions, while different, are very similar. Our goals and aspirations might differ slightly but, for the average Joe on the street, they are the same.

It would be helpful if both sides turned down the rhetoric a bit.

(I'm Canadian, born and bred, and I lived in Detroit for a period and graduated from law school there -- while I don't pretend to have the final word on this subject I do have some direct experience on both sides of the border)

Hi you all. I'm peruvian. I ended up in this site by chance (after reserching a hoax e-mail about the US taking the Amazon Forest). I've read many of the messages posted here and despite not being aware of the issue between Canada and the US regarding lumber I do wanna say a couple of things.

First, I can´t believe how some north americans can be so arrogant. Yes, your economy is bigger tnan Canada's and yes, you've got he most powerful military but what use are you giving to it? Police mankind? punish foreign countries which by international law are sovereign? And I'm not talking about Irak or Afganistan. The list is long: Panama, Granada, Chile, Central America, former Indochine, etc.

Second, what is it with that "we don't care" attitude? It's no secret anti-north americanism is growing fast all around the globe and north americans are much to blame. You are a great economical and political power in big part because your leaders have taken the right decisions (at least for you) I'll grant you that. But dont't ever forget that your developement was made at the expense of impoverishing what are now called Third World countries by years of unfair trade and extraction of these countries' natural resources. Being at the top can block the eyes and the mind I understad that but that's no excuse to run over international law and human rights The end doesn't always justify the means no matter the good that might come for your counrty and its people.

Finally, being a super power, you have responsabilities. You can't just not care. And regarding the "aknowledgement" of the need to counter non free internatonal media and press, come on. The Bush adminsitration forbid american tv networks from showing the coffins of the american soldiers killed in Irak and they didn't show the full extent of the consequences of the war in the civil population. Do some reserach in the web. I don't think that after watching the photos of children and babies mising a limb or even half their bodies you will continue to discuss matters like lumber. Canadiand and north americans may have their differences but there are far more likenesses. See the glass half full not half empty and concentrate in what's really important.

Hey Carlos, what are you doing blogging? Isn't it the time of the month for another coup in your part of the world? Who gets it this month, the left or the right?

Hey "Whatever", you're right, Latin America has a history of political inestability. So? Does it change anything? We are working hard to really develope. We're called Third World but we are not the ones nagging our neighbors. And remember, nowadays, what happens in one part of the world affects the whole. By the way, nice nickname, very suitable.

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