Asymmetrical Information

Its all part on the new south.

That poor woman, to be used like this...

The SCV and DCV have stated that race isn't a factor--they DO have black members, despite the SPLC's sneering dismissal of them.

And yet the Times tries to make a racial issue out of something the purported racists aren't making any kind of a fuss about.

That biased media...

Ironic, and good. I love seeing stuffed shirts and bigots - of any ilk - taken down a peg. I'm not sure the Daughters of the Confederacy qualify as either. I guess we'll have some idea soon based on how they handle this one!

It's almost as good as the fact that, given it's right-wing views on national defense, the KKK's favorite Democratic candidate for president would likely as have been . . . Lieberman.

And yes, I DO feel I have standing to talk; I was raised in the Deep South.

It's almost as good as the fact that, given it's right-wing views on national defense, the KKK's favorite Democratic candidate for president would likely as have been . . . Lieberman.

Really and where did you get this idea from?

Thorley,

Growing up in the Deep South, I got pretty damn good feel (through osmosis if nothing else) for the hot-button issues that the idiots comprising the KKK hold dear. And hell no, I wasn't a member; I don't associtate in any way with bigoted idiots if I can avoid it.

As far as I can tell, the KKK is VERY similar to the Nazis. They want a strong America, able to defend itself against anay and all comers, racially pure, and want all "furriners" to "go home". As far as I could tell while growing up, they lumped Blacks, Jews, Catholics, Hispanics, and damn near everyone whose ancestors weren't Protestants from Northern Europe into the category of "furriners."

Lieberman, IMO, is the only one of the former Democratic candidates for President that wanted America to have a strong, active, "look out for number one, kick ass and take names if necessary" defense and diplomatic posture. (From what I have read about all the others - even Clark - really didn't seem to measure up.) Among this group, Lieberman was the most hawkish on defense matters and foreign policy.

Ergo, since the KKK are religiously hawkish on defense, IMO his policies would have been the ones the KKK would have supported.

Given the KKK's demonstrated contempt for those of the Jewish faith, the irony, IMO, is simply wonderful.

Damn - I've simply got to start composing off-line as a rule. Sorry about the misspellings above.

As far as I can tell, the KKK is VERY similar to the Nazis. They want a strong America, able to defend itself against anay and all comers, racially pure, and want all "furriners" to "go home". As far as I could tell while growing up, they lumped Blacks, Jews, Catholics, Hispanics, and damn near everyone whose ancestors weren't Protestants from Northern Europe into the category of "furriners."

That’s funny that you should say that because everything I’m found suggests that such groups tend to be rather isolationist in their worldview. David Duke for example has jumped right on the ABB and anti-war bandwagon:

http://www.nytimes-institute.com/23DUKE.html

And one of his chief supporters, Brad Owens, has been embraced by John Kerry:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110004884

In which case, I doubt they’d vote for a Lieberman or Bush. They seem to be more at home in the Kerry and Nader (since Dean isn't running) camps.

Strom Thurmond's biracial daughter is attempting to join the Daughters of the Confederacy. Sniffle. Isn't integration beautiful?

My inclination though, given that Southerners volunteer to serve in our military in disproportionate numbers and probably aren’t any more or less racist the rest of the country, is to give them the benefit of the doubt. If they’re really open to anyone who can legitimately trace their lineage back to the Confederacy regardless of race (and that appears to be the case), let them have their group.

I couldn't believe how puzzled the black groups seemed to be that she wanted to do it. The one guy who said she should be tracing her black ancestry rather than her white... well, she's had all her life to trace that. Maybe now she wants to fill in the other half of her family tree.

I've never been a geneology buff. Don't have the patience for it, and I don't intend to track down my sperm donor anyway, but I understand the impulse. Good for her.

Regarding anything that David Duke says: consider the source - then ignore it. Duke and his ilk are beneath contempt.

I've never been a geneology buff. Don't have the patience for it

Or possibly the stomach. For example, you could be like me, and have family relatives who WERE into that thing for a while, and managed to turn up about eight generations of your 95% French ancestrage.

Uh, not that there's anything wrong with that. Right. Perfectly normal, and other people will have to learn to accept it.

Ah, screw it. "I'm FRENCH! Why do you think I have this outRRRRRAAAAGEOUS ACCENT, you silly king!"

Anony-mouse;

I'm so, so sorry to hear of your terrible situation. Rest assured, if the Consivative movement kicks you out when they find out about your ancestry, we in the progressive movement will accept you regardless of your ethnic background.

;-)

So anyone who believes in a strong defense of this country and her interests here and abroad is a KKK?
I agree on one point - the racial attitude of the KKK and the Rainbow Coalition and the Democrat party are exactly the same; that blacks are uniquely apart and deserve special treatment.
I don't believe that.

Wallis:

I didn't say - or imply - anything of the sort. However, as far as I can tell strong defense IS a hot-button issue with the KKK and many other right-wing extremist groups. I simply stated fact.

I don't object to being for a strong defense and diplomacy/foreign policy that looks out for US interests above all; I favor it. It's the racist bullshit that the KKK espouses that I detest.

Hondo,

Reading your words I have the feeling that though what you say
may be an accurate characterization of the KKK, still I have
some doubt that you have spent much time reading first person
accounts of people that experienced nazi rule in germany or
for that matter if you've read the nazis in their
own words.

Not much of it reminds me of the american south. But judge
for yourself.

"It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his
own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation;
that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of
the nation as a whole; that pride and conceitedness, the feeling that the
individual... is superior, so far from being merely laughable, involve great
dangers for the existence of the community that is a nation; that above all the
unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the
spirit and will of an individual; and that the higher interests involved in the life
of the whole must here set the limits and lay down the duties of the interests
of the individual." --- Adolph Hitler

North German Party chief and party ideologist, George Strasser, quote:

"We are Socialists, are enemies, mortal enemies of the present capitalist
economic system with its exploitation of the economically weak, with its
injustice in wages, with its immoral evaluation of individuals according
to wealth and money instead of responsibility and achievement, and we are
determined under all circumstances to abolish this system!"

and

"They [the people] run around and tire themselves out, torment themselves,
strive and drudge like galley slaves -- in order to lead a life of horrifying
emptiness! It is not that this new economic system which we want produces
more. What is at stake is certainly not higher production, which Marxism
demands, but the human soul!!"

[more at www.thirdposition.com/blackfront/strasser.htm]

[The nazi party 'demands':]

"We demand that the state make it its primary duty to provide
a livelihood for its citizens.";

"Individual activity must not violate the general interest, but
must be exercized within the framework of the community, and for
the general good.";

"The abolition of all income unearned by work...";

"We demand the nationalization of all business enterprises that
have been organized into corporations.";

"We demand the generous development of old age insurance.";

"We demand the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of
all speculation in land.";

"We demand the education, at state expense, of particularly talented
children of poor parents, regardless of the latters' class or
occupation.";

"We demand...the creation of a people's army.";

and then there is the campaign rhetoric:

"We are just good enough that international capital allows us to fill
its money sacks with interest payments.";

"The Jew lives in the palaces and the proletarian, the front soldier,
lives in holes that do not deserve to be called "homes.";

"...drive the foreigners out so that Germans can live on German soil.";

"Everyone but the German worker. He has to shut up and work. Every
four years he elects a new set of torturers, and everything stays the
same.";

"Therefore we demand the annihilation of the system of exploitation!
Up with the German worker's state!";

"Germany for the Germans!";

"...Jews sell Germany piece by piece and turn it over to the world
dictatorship...";

[see www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/pre1933.htm].

Adolf Hitler, "There will be no peace in the land until a body hangs from
every lamp-post."

Hitler, "When I came to Berlin a few weeks ago and looked at the traffic in the
Kurfuerstendamm, the luxury, the perversion, the iniquity, the wanton
display, and the Jewish materialism disgusted me so thoroughly, that I was
almost beside myself. I nearly imagined myself to be Jesus Christ when He
came to His Father's temple and found it taken by the money-changers. I
can well imagine how He felt when He seized a whip and scourged them out." (905)

From Nora Waln's account, " The Approaching Storm: One woman's story of
Germany 1934-38": 1935, wife of pharmacist, "We have these confessionals
in all our National Socialist groups. The creed of this party teaches
that loyalty to the state ranks above every other relationship. It comes
before loyalty between husband and wife, parent and child, brothers and sisters,
friend and friend." Her neigbor's son had, at such a confessional, reported
that she had said business was not good. "My punishment is light, really,
compared to what some of my friends have received...Every workday morning,
for six weeks, I have to present myself at the ward office of the Party...giving
the Nazi salute as I go in. Then I must stand before his desk -- he
remains seated -- and, raising my hand in the salute, hold it there
while I repeat 'Heil Hitler! Business is good today!' "

1935, Nora says "Gruss Gott" [God Bless] to grocer. Grocer says,
"Don't use that greeting to me, I may forget sometime and give the
same reply." Nora, "Suppose you did?" Grocer, "We dare not greet God
here any more. We must hail Hitler. I have three little children. Who
is to protect my little children if I am taken away?"

Nora Waln. Quoting an academic friend, 1935, "I did not work for the
National Socialists. I did not work against them." And, "I got my dismissal
in a letter from Berlin, which came eight days ago. It says I may no
longer teach or lecture in the Reich. ... At first it seemed I should
never get past the clerks. Each person encountered in the bureau said, 'It
is not usual to question the decisions of the Reich.' Finally I did see
the minister. He said the same thing, and no more." His wife, "If we
leave we shall be listed as traitors -- my fortune, forfeit to the state,
will go into the coffers of the National Socialism."

Nora Waln. Newspaper clipping, either 1934 or 35, "The Holy Night festival
in german lands is not an invention of the christian church. It is an
age-old custom handed down to us from our remote ancestors. The day of the
winter solstice was sacred to them, and the period round it was a
holy season. Down through the ages to the present day the true german
gives himself to good deeds without the ulterior motive of expecting
a reward from heaven."

According to Nora Waln the nazis built a file of everyone willing to work,
25 million people. Thousands were assigned to administration.
Hundreds with foreign language skills to censorship work, "every
tenth letter in the ordinary post must be examined." Thousands were
assigned to rearmament. Countless construction workers to redo
Berlin, "assembly halls in every city, a swimming bath for every
village, a house and garden for every worker, boulevards joining
every part of the Reich,..." Nora said, "I learned that both
employer and employee must be under state control. Neither strikes
nor lockouts were allowed,..." Worker's wages were kept below
government jobs. Corporations were restricted from distributing
more then 6 percent of their profit; the rest must be reinvested.
Nora, "No one can change a job without permission from the Labor
Front." "Wages are settled by the Labor Front."

Nora Waln, "No one is supposed to have a business which is nonessential."
According to Waln, prizes were given for those who found ways to
replace raw materials germany lacked. Nora, "There are too many
people wanting professional and clerical jobs,...Boys and girls
about to leave school have to state their preference for careers,
but if that work is not needed they must take something else." Nora, "A
person who refuses the work offered may not draw any relief."

Nora Waln on the roads the nazis built, "No telegraph poles, advertisements,
rows of refreshment stands, gasoline stations, or ugly houses line their
banks. Grass strips separate the two ways of traffic, and these often
divide around hills to meet and run side by side...In forest places,
signs which light up at night ask one to be careful of the deer." When
told how much the road workers made, Nora asked, how they could get
them to work for that. Her guide said, "When road building is offered
a man, he must take it." Later her guide said, "The working strength
of every man, woman, and child within his dominion is power concentrated
in our Leader's fist. With that might he forges our destiny."

Mark Amerman:

The similarities betwen the Nazis and the KKK are not perfect. In economic policy, they in fact seem very different.

Both, however, are strongly racist; place great emphasis on preserving the existing social order; are horribly xenophobic; and are willing to advocate mass violence agains their enemies. I have no doubt that if (God forbid, please!) the KKK ever gained dictatorial power here, that we'd see atrocities against those of Black/Jewish/Hispanics/Asian/Arab heritage, and possibly against all non-Protestant religious groups as well.

This is what I meant when I said that the KKK was very similar to the Nazis. I wasn't discussing economic philosophy. I was discussing their willingness to commit violence against their enemies - and the fact that they use racist and/or religious criteria to define their enemies.

Hondo,

Why do you believe the nazis placed "great emphasis on preserving the existing
social order?"

They saw themselves as radicals who were going to radically transform the nature
of germany and the world. It wouldn't be hard to gather evidence that they did.

If you want more quotes and more detailed arguments to support that assertion I can
provide them. But before going to that effort would you please elaborate on your
thinking.

As for being racist, xenophobic and advocates of mass violence, I completely
grant your point, although of course as you must know or should be able to guess
in the nazi self-image they speak of themselves as peace loving and merely defending
themselves against imperialist and "reactionary conservative" aggression.

Hondo,

I found this commentary on Knut Hamsum that I think illuminates how europeans
in general have chosen to reframe their perception of the nazis. First off, you
are probably wondering who Knut Hamsum was and why he matters. Knut Hamsum was
the Nobel prize winning norwegian novelist. Some think he was the best norwegian
novelist ever. He was also an enthusiastic proponent of national socialism, and
I've read somewhere, though I need to confirm this, that german soldiers being
sent to the front were given by the state either one of Hamsum's books or
a copy of Hitler's "Mein Kampf."

Anyway the quote below is from a norwegian website on the subject:

[begin-quote]

On top of this, however, Knut Hamsum developed an ever more critical view of the way
in which society was developing, and this led him into positions that can be defined
as reactionary. Key words here are anticapitalism, anti-industrialism, antidemocracy,
a longing for feudal relationships in politics and morals, idealization of nature,
a rural economy and the "natural" bond between human beings and the rest of the world.
We can recognise attitudes of this sort among the "positive" aspects of Nazi ideology.
It is reasonable to assume that an experience of "shared values" helped to reinforce
Hamsun?s sympathy for the political experiment that Hitler launched in 1933.

On the other hand, it is difficult to find any traces of what we regard as the negative
core of Nazi ideology: racism, antisemitism and the general brutality of its view of
human nature. In a 1977 article, the American Hamsun researcher Allen Simpson examined
closely both Hamsun?s literary production and central articles from the occupation years,
coming to the conclusion that Hamsun was antisemitic. However, it is difficult to disagree
with Sten Sparre Nilson?s response that Simpson reads Hamsun without showing any
particular sense of context: the gibes about Jews that Simpson found in Hamsun?s writings
were common in the early years of this century, while Simpson "ignores the fact the
Frenchmen, Englishmen and Japanese are given a hard time [by Hamsun], while the Germans
are given at least as rough treatment as the Jews".

With a single exception, Hamsun?s articles and manifestos from the war years are free of
anti-Jewish elements. The exception is a major article published in German in February 1942,
in which President Roosevelt is described as a "Jew in the service of the Jews". The
original Norwegian manuscript of this article has been lost, so it is impossible to know
whether the antisemitic formulations are by Hamsun himself or were cynically added in
translation. What is certain is that such formulations are not representative of what
we know of Hamsun?s attitude to Jews and the Jewish question.

There is no doubt that Hamsun?s reactionary attitudes made him blind to contemporary
political realities. However, while they also help to explain the support he gave Hitler
and Quisling they do not give us grounds to claim that Hamsun was a Nazi in the
ideological sense.

[end-quote, from http://www.uib.no/elin/elpub/uibmag/grafikk/eng-96/hamsun.htm]

Let's focus on one sentence of that passage again:

"Key words here are anticapitalism, anti-industrialism, antidemocracy, a longing for
feudal relationships in politics and morals, idealization of nature, a rural economy
and the "natural" bond between human beings and the rest of the world."

And that is I think descriptive. This was certainly not the whole nazi message, but in
my limited experience reading this stuff it certainly seems a good part of it.

Now I want to ask you, when you hear the word 'reactionary' is this what you think
of? Does reactionary mean anti-capitalist? Anti-industrialist? Idealization of nature?
Wanting a "natural" bond between human beings and their environment?

In the american context this is not what 'reactionary' means. Is the european context
that dramatically different?

I have my doubts. I think word games are being played. 'Reactionary' is given a special
definition when referring to nazis, and only nazis, and then that code word is used
to avoid confronting the subject.

Then notice the last paragraph of the passage quoted above, especially the phrase
"Nazi in the ideological sense." What does it mean? It means racism, it means anti-semitism.

According to the author only that is really nazi. It's briefly acknowledged, in order
to excuse Knut Hamsun, that there was more to National Socialism than just this. The
author claims there was a "positive" aspect to the nazis and a "negative" aspect. It's
asserted that Hamsum didn't really identify with the negative aspect only the 'positive.'

And then it's asserted by implication the 'positive' doesn't really have anything
to do with the nazis, because after all it's positive!

I think in a nutshell this is how europe deals with the nazi past, especially the
problematic issue of all the institutions and attitudes left lying around and still
existing and still believed that unfortunately originated in or were pushed by the
nazis. The name of the game is word games, misdirection and forgetting.

Mark Amerman:

I think we're getting rather off-topic. How about we both "hold that thought" until a more suitable thread opens in the future.

Hondo,

Ok.

Comments are Closed.