July 6, 2004
From the desk of Jane Galt:Those who live by the sword . . .
Hey, maybe that spontaneous order stuff works after all:
A group of armed, masked Iraqi men threatened Tuesday to kill Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi if he did not immediately leave the country, accusing him of murdering innocent Iraqis and defiling the Muslim religion.Posted by Jane Galt at July 6, 2004 12:59 PM | TrackBack | Technorati inbound linksThe threats revealed the deep anger many Iraqis, including insurgent groups, feel toward foreign fighters, whom many consider as illegitimate a presence here as the 160,000 U.S. and other coalition troops.
In a videotape sent to the al-Arabiya television station, a group calling itself the "Salvation Movement," questioned how al-Zarqawi could use Islam to justify the killing of innocent civilians, the targeting of government officials and the kidnapping and beheading of foreigners.
"He must leave Iraq immediately, he and his followers and everyone who gives shelter to him and his criminal actions," said a man on the video.
The video marked the first time that an Iraqi group made such a public threat against al-Zarqawi.
. . .
In the video, three men, their faces covered with Arab headscarves, were flanked by rocket propelled grenades and an Iraqi flag. The man speaking had a clear Iraqi accent.
"We swear to Allah that we have started preparing ... to capture him and his allies or kill them and present them as gift to our people." the man said. "This is the last warning. If you don't stop, we will do to you what the coalition forces have failed to do."
Sadr's militia targeted in Najaf and told not to return to Fallajah, now Zarqawi told he is a target - seems Iraq really doesn't want a strongman, especially not in the mold of Khomeini or the Taliban. Albeit I could wish there were enough police in place - and trusted with information by the people - to take out these gangs. Well, that time is also coming.
Don't bet on it. How hard is it to get a couple of friends together and make a video tape? I'll buy it when al-Zarqawi is dead. Until then, this is just a bunch of guys (maybe our guys) puffing out their chests, or one more faction we'll have to worry about down the road.
But, you know, "Keep Hope Alive." Kerry picked the Breck girl, so I'm liking our chances for a better tomorrow.
Just out of curiousity, which Iraqi flag was in the video - the new one or the old one?
Hmmm, and how is this 'spontaneous order' thing different from plain old vigilanteism?
Bless them, their hearts are in the right place, but this whole 'rule-of-law' thing takes some time to get used to I suppose.
This is the sort of thing that will lead to success (defined as a peaceful, democratic-ish Iraq). Not so much that they actually capture and kill him - though that would be good - but that they are willing to publicly announce their displeasure and their intent.
This is the sort of thing that will lead to success (defined as a peaceful, democratic-ish Iraq). Not so much that they actually capture and kill him - though that would be good - but that they are willing to publicly announce their displeasure and their intent.This sort of reminds me of how after 9/11 as we were told ad nausea by Bush, Ashcroft, et al that “Islam is a religion of peace” of the deafening silence of Muslim clerics declaring a fatwa on the heads of those who murdered innocent civilians. Granted, there were possibly some who did so (it’s a billion people we’re talking about after all) but they don’t seem to be as vocal as those who use Islam as a justification for war on the United States or murdering innocents.
Can you say 'first piece of the new Iraqi government propaganda'? Coming soon to video, 'Iraqi Patriots behead terrorist'.
There will never be a true democracy in Islam. The first thing new Iraqi PM Alleilo(sp butchered) did was make a speech about Iraqi laws being different, and that they would cut off the hands or heads of the terrorists. Beyond the brutality of Islamic law, the Koran simply doesnt allow equality for nonmuslims.
Beyond the possibility that these might be some of our guys behind the masks, the story seems to be all good. They may need a few years to get used to the rule of law, but at least they are making a stand: they want these foreigners out. Not only these few Iraqis who made the tape, but al Jazeera and al Arabia are carrying the tape, and the Iraqi accents are obvious to those who live in the region, watching the news.
In Arab countries one needs quite a bit of subtlety to understand the news. That's why they understood this bit of news so much better than many Americans have.
Michael Gersh I didnt mean to imply it was US soldiers in that video. I think their Iraqis that support the new government in Iraq.
I can't believe you people are applauding the rise of vigilante death squads, just because they are "your" death squads.
I can't believe you people are applauding the rise of vigilante death squads, just because they are "your" death squads.
Actually they sound more like a posse given that they have pledged to “to capture him and his allies or kill them and present them as gift to our people.”
As far as “applauding” them goes, I have a tough time mustering outrage over someone who is going after the terrorists/insurgents who are murdering innocent civilians, trying to prevent the establishment of a republican government, and who are kidnapping and murdering foreigners.
Thumper, You seemed to be more outraged over a group going after a man intentionally killing civvilians, then the group killing civillians because it hurts your politcal opponent more.
I have the balls to ask it. Which side are you on? The Iraqi's, or the Insurgency? People can't tell anymore
It's all well and good to decry vigilanteism when you live in a relatively peaceful society with a well functioning police force to protect the citizenry, but that doesn't seem to be the case yet in Iraq.
"I have the balls to ask it. Which side are you on? The Iraqi's, or the Insurgency? People can't tell anymore."
Nick:
If you had any sack, you'd crawl out from beneath your mother's skirt, open your eyes and realize that, prior to the invasion, Iraq was 1/4 as strong as the last time rolled them in '91. If that's who you're afraid of, your days must be filled with terror from the moment you screw up the courage to creep out from under your bed.
A guy wonders about the approval shown for vigilante justice (so much for the rule of law), and you suggest he's a traitor. Now you know why some libs are OK with f-9/11, whatever its flaws.
It's all well and good to decry vigilanteism when you live in a relatively peaceful society with a well functioning police force to protect the citizenry, but that doesn't seem to be the case yet in Iraq.Therein lies one of my concerns, the Iraqi government is just getting started and there a number of problems to be worked out with the new police force and military. It could be disastrous in the long run for trying to establish the rule of law, if people begin to turn to vigilantism and private militia forces for protection.
Thorley Winston, vigilanteism and private militias are all they've had to depend on for the last 15 months. If we want them to depend on something else then somebody has to supply that something else, and it isn't happenning yet.
SomeCallMeTim tries to make a dichotomy between the iraqis and the insurgents. But it looks like the insurgents aren't a unified group, they're just everybody in iraq who's ready to fight to get the foreign troops out. And it looks like the single most popular political position in iraq also. If Allawi hopes to honestly win the next election, sometime before the end of January he will ask the US troops to leave. Then he can say "I got rid of the USA. The insurgents couldn't do it, I did it. Vote for me."
The guys who say they're going after Zarqawi might be insurgents too, just anti-Zarqawi insurgents. But I've been surprised to hear that a lot of insurgent groups say they like Zarqawi. They don't know a lot about him and have little contact with him, but they're willing to say they fight for him. Very strange. Anyway, the only thing all the insurgents have in common is they want the US troops out. It wouldn't be surprising if they fight each other some.
To have any hope of militias getting less important there would have to be elections where militias get power roughly in proportion to their strength. Then they can hide their guns and be political parties, and the guns stay hidden until somebody is sure the system is rigged. But if they can't get represented until after they disarm then that system tends to fail.
And I haven't heard any news about local elections. There were a bunch and Bremer cancelled them because he didn't like how they were coming out. Local elections would let people see they were getting some democracy and it would let local politicians get some publicity. Bremer isn't there to stop it.
It's a mess but there are some glimmers of hopeful signs. No particular reason for optimism but it isn't certain it will turn out badly.
Presumably, this is the kind of reaction we would see from all those gun-toting militia types here in America should someone threaten our freedom. We're not at all unlike these Iraqis in that respect.
Yet democratic societies cannot tolerate vigilantes much less endorse them. So here's the question: In a society where the sherrifs are more likely to be absent than present, what keeps vigilantes from running rampant? Is there a way to empower a populace that is vigilant but also respectful of the rule of law?
Timmyboy, If you had "any sack", or even any brains, you would have realized, and been man enough to admit it, that it wasn't their regular military that needed to be dealt with.
But you have neither, so you won't. You'll just try and argue like the mindless coward you are.
SO how about *you* answer the question I posed to Thumper. WHich side are you on? The Iraqi's, or the insurgencies?
I, for one, feel the testicular metaphors are wearing a bit thin.
Just once I'd like to hear "if you had the labia..." or "show some cervix". Well..not really.
Matt Johnson asked reasonably, "In a society where the sherrifs are more likely to be absent than present, what keeps vigilantes from running rampant? Is there a way to empower a populace that is vigilant but also respectful of the rule of law?"
In at least some US states there are laws about "citizen arrest". The idea is that if you tell someone you are arresting them they are legally obligated to accompany you to find the police. You have various other rights that the professional police don't have. But you are legally liable for your actions in ways the police aren't. You had better be right.
I don't know whether this has worked in practice. It's so little-used today that lots of citizens don't even know the rules and have at best vaguely heard about it. It's an obvious place to look though, to answer your question.
Nick M posed an ill-posed question, "SO how about *you* answer the question I posed to Thumper. WHich side are you on? The Iraqi's, or the insurgencies?"
It appears the insurgencies are at least 98% iraqi.
You might do better to ask "Which side are you on? The Interim Government, or the insurgents?"
But no, the insurgents are various, all they have in common is they all want foreign troops out of iraq. And Allawi says he wants that too, he's only keeping us there because he has to. He doesn't say it this way, but I'm clear he has to keep US troops there because in the short run the iraqis will kill him if he doesn't.
Al Zarqawi is unpopular in iraq. The US military is more unpopular. This is partly because we adapted israeli urban warfare techniques. And we have found that if you need to reduce a city where 100% of the people hate you, the israeli techniques do it with minimal casualties on your side. But if you use it on a city where less than 100% of the people hate you, after you use those techniques 100% of the people will hate you.
Allawi might offer us a contract, where our troops stay in their isolated bases and never ever come out except to do training exercises in the desert, and for a price we protect iraq from foreign invasion. Iraqi companies would bring us supplies. Then he could tell his people that he got the US troops out of their cities and he would probably get a lot of votes for that.
Every city block that iraqi or US troops surrounds with barbed wire and searches, is a city block that will vote against Allawi. Every house that american or iraqi troops search starting with breaking down the door and putting boots on people's heads is a neighborhood that will vote against Allawi.
Get the US troops out of there and 30% to 80% of the resistance will quit.
Persuade iraqis that there really will be honest elections and their preferred parties will be allowed to run, and 50% to 80% of the rest of the resistance will quit. Right now all the insurgents that aren't with al Zarqawi are desperately trying to persuade people they aren't, because he's getting almost as unpopular as the US military. That's how bad he is. Get all those other people to be more against him than they are against the Allawi puppet government and the US military and he'll disappear one way or another.
I think maybe the question would be better split three ways, or maybe four.
Whose side are you on? Do you want an iraqi democracy that works for iraqi interests? Or a puppet government that does what the US wants? Or a theocracy that imposes its will, backed by fanatics instead of paid iraqi and US soldiers? Or would you prefer iraq stay in chaos?
Actually J Thomas, all the accounts I've read over the past month is just the opposite: all the motivated insurgents are either foreign or foreign sponsered.
Do you have a source on the 98% native figure?
I don't have a source for a precise 98%, certainly not one that could argue it isn't 97% or 99%.
Here's a vaguer one, by Ahmed Hashim.
http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=400&issue_id=2990&article_id=2368119
"The number of foreign infiltrators is small and will continue to be dwarfed by local members of the insurgency. However, the infiltrators may have an impact beyond their numbers."
All reports I've seen from people who actually interviewed insurgents have claimed that the foreigners are a small minority, except the reports from Fallujah. Those reports say that the foreign fighters are important, but usually don't give numbers. The one that estimated their numbers in Fallujah at around three dozen I tend to discount.
Foreign fighters are important beyond their numbers for two main reasons. One is that some of them have experience fighting israelis or americans in other places, and can at the least teach the locals about some of the things that don't work. Another is that they appear to be most of the suicide bombers.
Also they are important negatively in that they are divisive, some groups use them while others are opposed to their being there.
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