Asymmetrical Information

Thanks! I burst out laughing as soon as the photo appeared!

/f

Is that a young Zell Miller next to Kerry?

Nahh, that cant be zig zagging zell. He was still in his Klan dixie-crat persona back then.

You must be that CIA operative that Kerry ferried into Cambodia

Back then he was known as "InstaOperative".

Great pic....LOL

'Nahh, that cant [sic] be zig zagging zell [sic]. He was still in his Klan dixie-crat [sic] persona back then.'

In 1969, Miller was exec. secretary to the governor of Georgia.

The 'Dixiecrats' were 21 years in the past at that time. (This is assuming that you actually know what a Dixiecrat was.) Miller was 16 years old then.

As for this 'Klan' remark... I seem to run into a lot of 'progressive' folk who fire off an accusation of Klan membership against anyone who lives in the Southeast at the drop of a hat. That's OK. We've had experience with bigots and their stereotypes before.

(Or was that an example of 'sophisticated' political humor?)

note the diver in the background

No "I had an abortion" on the tee-shirt?

In the 60s Zell Miller was chief of staff for Lester Maddox, an avowed racist that had smashed in the car roof of a black minister, and passed out Ax handles to white customers of his diner to better oppose integration. This is the same Lester Maddox that chased black diners from a fried chicken resteraunt the day after civil rights legislation went through. The anger he displayed last night is nothing new for Zig Zagging Zell. You reps want triple z, hes all yours.

As to the Kerry Cambodia garbage, the dates may be confused, but two of his crew members have stated that they were often very close to Cambodia, and "may have been in Cambodia, but there arent any street signs". At least Kerry has memories of South East Asia to confuse.

Forgot to include that Maddox used a pistol to clear the fried chicken diner out.

Begbee,

Hello again.

Let me see if I understand the general Klan argument from the left:

Former Klansman doing stuff for Democrats (Zell in 1992, Robert Byrd for WAYYYY too long); former clansman does stuff for Republicans (Zell today), bad.

Oh course, that's assuming Zell even WAS a Klansman, which I don't know (and you didn't give any evidence).

Or were you still in your Nazi baby-killer persona back when you posted that?

Evidence? We don't need no stinkin' EVIDENCE!

"As to the Kerry Cambodia garbage, the dates may be confused, but two of his crew members have stated that they were often very close to Cambodia, and "may have been in Cambodia, but there arent any street signs". At least Kerry has memories of South East Asia to confuse."

Prhaps you missed the part about CONCRETE PILINGS along the Cambodian border - Swift Boats WERE NOT CAPABLE of getting into Cambodia on the Mekong, and most certainly not by accident or without knowing.

Kerry never piloted a Swift Boat into Cambodia. It's that simple.

Deoxy I associated Dixie crats with the Klan, I didnt say that ol triple z was a member of the Klan. Byrd renounced his Klan days, and is not directly involved in this election. Why dont you deal with Zells past, instead of launching ad hominem attacks at a person you dont even know? Btw, are you pro life? Its funny that people never point out the only acts of terrorism to take place in this country committed by Americans are committed by the antiabortion nuts that blow up abortion clinics, Centenial Park and the far right whackos that took their war games to the streets of Okie City.

Deoxy nice to know you know the exact make up of the entire Mekong River, but Ive read from several sources of Swift Boats other then Kerrys accidently entering Cambodia. Thats not to include the fact that I have never read a single account of concrete pilings on the Mekong prior to the not so Swiftys accusations. But to end this silliness, I'll let your point that Kerry was mistaken about being in Cambodia. Whats does it matter? Why dont you explain were Bush was when he said he was in the NG? We do have street signs, theres even signs that let you know what state your in here, so why doesnt anyone know where jr was?

I'd never heard of Lester Maddox before, so I looked him up. What a surprise that "Begbee" seems to be vastly overstating Maddox's mixed record:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-06-25-maddox_x.htm

I'd like to add, how does "begbee" purport to know that Miller HASN'T made statements disavowing Maddox's more racist statements or acts?

Begbee asks: "Why dont you deal with Zells past?"

Because it's not relevant. This is a classic example of the ad hominem fallacy (Latin for "against the man"): if you can't refute the message, shoot the messenger.

Begbee is resorting to ad hominem because he/she does not want to address the relevant issue: is Zell Miller's message valid? If the message is valid, then the identity of the messenger does not matter.

And before Begbee whines that people are criticizing Kerry's past, I'll point out that Kerry has made it clear that his past is the message. His Vietnam record is the centerpiece of his campaign for the White House. That makes it a legitimate subject for scrutiny and criticism.

Miller is not running for President. Kerry is.

Let's see... "I associated Dixie crats with the Klan"... "why don't you deal with Zells past, instead of launching ad hominem attacks at a person you don't even know?"... At least the flips are in different sentences.

"Its funny that people never point out the only acts of terrorism to take place in this country committed by Americans are committed by... far right whackos.." It will no doubt come as a surprise to the Weathermen, the Black Panthers, the Symbionese Liberation Army, the Animal and Earth Liberation Fronts that they are now classified as "far right whackos," although you might get a nod from William Quantrill were he to rise from the grave (do zombies have political affiliations?).

Seriously, what kind of right wing troll is this?

It seems to me that if Miller's message is "I am a man of integrity and constant values, the Democratic Party has recently abandoned me, and my decision to switch sides and support Bush indicates how very, very serious the current situation must be" then it is relevant to look at how often he's changed his positions in the past, bounced around different factions of the Democratic Party (including socially liberal), and committed acts and identified with people that many people would NOT consider models of integrity.

>

OK, dunce, you want to talk about terror? Listen up.
The largest domestic terror group in the United States (and the most active) is the Earth Liberation Front. It has done hundreds of millions of dollars in damage, and thousands of attacks in over 40 states over the last 10 years.

The next largest group is the Animal Liberation Front. The next is Direct Action.

The vast majority of domestic terror incidents (including bombings and firebombings) are committed by LEFT WING terror groups, including the near-fatal beating of a New York City Police Officer outside Madison Square Garden (I always say you can tell alot about someone by who his enemies are).

FURTHERMORE, the Republican Party does not EMBRACE the extremists on its right. The DEMOCRATS however, embrace the extreme left wing and USE IT TO RAISE FUNDS AND CAMPAIGN !!!
The ELF and ALF are most dangerous domestic groups in operation, and are assisted by the Left's mainline organizations (PETA, Sierra Club, etc).

Republicans DENOUCE and PROSECUTE violent acts by right wingers. I didn't see any of the PEACE LOVING lefties discourage or denouce the WELL PLANNED violence in New York City. It was well documented IN ADVANCE that lefty groups were planning ways to assault and endager police and residents.
Funny that the PEACE PARTY supports peace everywhere in the world, EXCEPT in the streets of our cities!

OK, rant off. I gt a little pissed there for a few.

Brittain33 writes: It seems to me that if Miller's message is "I am a man of integrity and constant values . . ."

OK, stop right there. That is not Miller's message. Miller is not running for office, and he is not talking about himself. He is talking about the Democratic Party and the man they have nominated for President. Miller says that, in his view, Kerry does not deserve to be elected. Is he right? If you think he isn't, fine. But argue that point by addressing what Miller said, not by attacking who he is.

I watched Miller's entire speech. Distilled into a single sentence, it was: "My family is more important to me than anything else in the world, and I trust George W. Bush to protect them far more than I would John Kerry." Obviously you disagree. That's fine. But in order to persuade anyone, you'll have to say something like this: "I trust Kerry more than Bush to protect my family, and here's why . . ." Saying "Miller is an inconsistent, racist scumbag" is not sufficient, because even an inconsistent, racist scumbag can speak the truth. Are Miller's points valid? Is his argument sound? If you don't think so, you'll have to show what's wrong with the argument, not the man who spoke it.

Deoxy,

If it were really impossible for a SwiftBoat to cross into Cambodia due to concrete pilings, how is it that John O'Niell claimed to have done so to Richard Nixon? Is O'Niell a liar?

Stop right there? Miller wrote a whole book about himself and what he thinks about his party. The book and his biography justifies his being given the keynote speech. Anyone off the street can say "I will vote for Bush because I fear for my family, and Kerry sucks;" there's a reason they chose Miller and not Joe Schmo. Heck, any Republican official could have given the same speech, but Miller has an added kick in his biography that makes him special.

It's because Miller has put himself forward as an exemplar of species Conservative Democrat and larded all of his praise of Bush with constant criticism of his own party. He acts as if his criticism is principled and has said the party has left him. His record shows that his principles are often changeable and frequently immoral. This is important if we are going to invite him into our living rooms as a representative of Americans, Democrats, Senators, Southerners, or even Conservative Democrats and hear what he has to say.

The question is, "is Miller's judgment sound? Does he matter?" It is up to all of us to judge his integrity for ourselves.

Begbee is the type of Democrat that Zell Miller discussed in his speech last night. The kind that puts party ideology before the American identity.

Not to overwhelm you with truth, but the Cambodia issue wasn't simply misplaced directions. First, Kerry used it as a way to claim the US government was fundamentally dishonest with its own servicemen, and their families, as well as violating international agreements. Secondly, the Mekong River is a huge transportation highway between those countries. There are border guards. It is not something you can accidentally cross without knowing it.

Begbee's candidate has been exposed as a fraud by the people who served in his unit, including a fair number of commanding officers.

(Imagine if there were 250 Swiftees supporting Kerry, and only 8 voices against him.)

But take heart, Begbee. It is only one reason why Kerry is going to lose this election.

Sigh.

As to the Kerry Cambodia garbage, the dates may be confused, but two of his crew members have stated that they were often very close to Cambodia, and "may have been in Cambodia, but there arent any street signs".

Begbee,

You've cleverly eluded the point of Kerry's claim, although it almost caught you. Kerry trotted out the Cambodia fairy tale in a Senate speech opposing Reagan's policy in Nicaragua (IIRC) by saying that he knew something about the Government ordering soldiers to perform illegal acts.

Saying now that Kerry & Co. may have inadvertently wandered into Cambodia, either through dodgy navigation or off their own bat (looking for wealthy Cambodian widows, perhaps?) vitiates the whole point of the story. In either case, Kerry and his crew weren't ordered to do it, so they weren't there as a matter of covert US policy, as he had maintained.

So whether he was in Cambodia or not, and if he was, when, is totally irrelevant. If he were there, it was (as he now implicitly admits) solely through his own acts, without the direction, sanction, or even knowledge of the US Government.

Beyond any doubt, he made up an emotionally manipulative and mendacious story to seize the moral high ground.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Raining Ketchup, look at the dates of their tours of duty. O'Neill served a tour which went into Nixon's Cambodian campaign.

Begbee, even Kerry's campaign has backed off the Cambodian claim. Why do you persist?

And Begbee again, Bush's NG service is documented and I looked at the documents. Having served in the Reserves myself, I am more than satisfied that he met his service obligation.

Rex, what do the dates matter? O'Neil claimed it wasn't possible to get a SwiftBoat into Cambodia. Of course, O'Neill then backed off that claim in the tape, claiming he meant to say he was NEAR Cambodia. So the dates really don't matter, because O'Neill clearly doesn't have his story straight.

Kerry didn't use his claims of being in Cambodia as the only example of American Servicemen committing war crimes ordered by their superiors in Vietnam. The clipped Kerry quotes in the Swiftys commercial are examples of war crimes documented by 150 decorated Vietnam Vets. You all seem to be forgetting that Kerry and the 150 vets he quoted have proven to be accurate, or are you unfamiliar with Cali and the laundry list of attrocites committed by Tiger Force in Vietnam?

Alan Im shaking in my boots at the mere mention of ELF and PETA, they are such dangerous extremists that have no reguard for human life. Call Ridge and raise the terror alert to red, here comes PETA and ELF!!!! I guess they've been planting bombs at Fur coat stores and are targeting gas station owners for assassination. Are you so desperate you claim violence that didnt happen in New York as supporting evidence for your ridiculous claims?

Ive stipulated to the Cambodia story to get away from inconsequential silliness. The bottom line on Kerry in Vietnam is the undisputed fact, that in the face of attack, he beached his boat, ran into what could have easily have been a VC ambush, and killed a VC with an RPG pointed at him. This is all anyone needs to know about Kerrys courage. This President froze when America was under attack, Kerry would have acted immediately. Rumor has it that when the two Russian planes were blown out of the sky, jr froze again out of force of habit.

Heh.

John Kerry clearly admitted participating in war atrocities. Is that what you mean by "Kerry's courage"? Of course, absolutely NONE of his Swiftee compatriots - including those who now tour with him on the campaign trail - back him up on this claim.

But I guess you will. Because somehow, some way, volunteering for a war, then protesting against it and receiving medals but then tossing them away is the moral consistency you need in a nuanced leader.

Zell Miller shredded Kerry's record last night.

Particularly effective was the usage of weapons systems Kerry voted against that were used in actions the rest of America supported.

Kerry could have kept his medals and his mouth shut and been a popular republican. It was an act of courage to tell the truth.

Cheney voted against many of the weapons that Kerry did.

No, I don't think I believe Begbee is some right wing troll anymore. His remarks are just too sickening and disgusting.

[unapologetic rant]I guess ELF and ALF aren't terrorists as long as they don't threaten or kill Begbee. Perhaps he extends that to his friends (though it's hard to imagine he has any)? Gee, I guess those abortion clinic bombers are just "politically active" huh? Otherwise, calling them dangerous terrorists is just "silliness", right Sissyjuggersnot?

Oh! Fegh! An ad hominem attack! HOW COULD I??

No one claims Vietnam attrocities didn't take place. NO ONE but Kerry and his cronies claim that they took place on a DAILY BASIS, with the FULL KNOWLEDGE OF COMMANDERS AT ALL LEVELS, and implying extensive atrocities inflicted well beyond the My Lai and Tiger Force examples!

Oops! Sorry again! Guess the North Vietnamese supported his story, didn't they? Good to know he could pick his allies well even back then!

And didn't Kerry hop off his swift boat and shoot the VC in question in the back? Ohhhh!... very heroic![/unapologetic rant]

Kerry didn't use his claims of being in Cambodia as the only example of American Servicemen committing war crimes ordered by their superiors in Vietnam.

Begbee, I'd like to introduce you to the point. Point, this is Begbee. Begbee, this is the point. You two really should get together occasionally.

The point was that his story about being personally ordered to commit a war crime - entering Cambodia illegally - was bullshit.

There. That wasn't so hard now, was it?

He made up a convenient story to support the point he wanted to make. It would be like a black man giving a speech on civil rights, claiming the Klan left a burning cross in front of his family's sharecropper's shack when he was a child in the rural South. Who could possibly dispute his position after it was prefaced with that story?

Then we find out he grew up the son of wealthy dentist on Long Island, and he'd only seen the Klan in movies. Puts a rather different light on matters.

And as for other examples of "war crimes," since Kerry provided no details whatever - just unattributed third party recounting - in the absence of any evidence we have to assume that there is no more substance to those allegations than to his excellent Cambodian adventure.

As to "Cali", please note that he was court martialed and convicted. Who else was court martialed? Who else - specific names here, no generic allegations from Berkeley handbills - was accused? No doubt other atrocities took place, but in the absence of credible evidence I reject Kerry's assertion that they were widespread, and perpetrated as a matter of policy.

BTW, Kerry did not quote other servicemen. Quoting a person requires an essentially verbatim recounting of their words, with attribution to that specific individual, so that the assertion may (in principle, at least) be checked. Constructions beginning with "Some say..." or "Many say..." are not quotes, but too often meretricious way of putting one's own views into some unassailable third party's mouth.

Quoth Begbee: "The bottom line on Kerry in Vietnam is the undisputed fact, that in the face of attack, he beached his boat, ran into what could have easily have been a VC ambush, and killed a VC with an RPG pointed at him. This is all anyone needs to know about Kerrys courage."

An action, by the way, which was against the general orders concerning engagement by swift boats, and which removes any possibility of speed or maneuver, and which halves the firepower of the boat. But having a few bad ideas, so long as they don't get you killed, is not such a bad thing. Usually nobody would care. But hang your hat on it and it becomes a problem.

Further: "This President froze when America was under attack, Kerry would have acted immediately."

Funny, Kerry's own report of his behavior on hearing the news suggest otherwise. For those of you who don't care to follow links:

"""
[Kerry] recalled walking into the office of Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, South Dakota Democrat, and watching the second plane hit the South Tower of the World Trade Center.

"And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table, and then we just realized nobody could think," Mr. Kerry recalled, "And then 'Boom!' Right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon."

That was a span of roughly 35 minutes, according to precise timelines of the day...
"""

Not that I begrudge him this, either, but the notion that Kerry would have leaped action-hero-like into action is silly. "To the Whitehouse!" he yells, sounding for all the world like Adam West.

It is even more silly to hound the President for spending a few minutes to follow through on his committment to a group of school children before responding to what was probably another of the important but constant minor emergencies that make up the job.

Lastly: "Rumor has it that when the two Russian planes were blown out of the sky, jr froze again out of force of habit."

As long as we're discussing discussing evidence here... I guess I'm done.

(I guess there's still the entrance to Cambodia thing. It is certain that there were boats in Cambodia during the war, but Kerry was out before entrance in Cambodia was authorized. During his few months there, the border is reported to have been blocked. Presumably the obstructions were removed when operations in Cambodia were authorized.)

Bigbee,

Alan is right. The largest domestic terror groups are the ELF, ALF and Direct Action.

Robert Byrd was a high ranking member of the Klan and one of the most powerful members of the current democratic party. By the way, National Guard service is honorable.

Oh gee, vulgarities and hints that you tough guys know my e-mail addy. Thats even scarier than ELF and PETA.

I conceeded Kerry was not in Cambodia on Christmas Eve, because thats the accusation made by the Swiftys. This type of confusion with dates is common, its called the fog of war. Kerry has maintained that he ferried special forces into Cambodia on different occasions, and other US decorated Vets have admitted to operating in Cambodia. Beyond that, two of his crew mates state they very well could have been in Cambodia.

Kerry didnt admit to committing attrocities, he admitted to commiting war crimes, such as free fire zones, the torching of huts, and the killing of farm animals. Guess what? I dont hold that against any US soldier that served in any war. And guess what Occam? Kerry wasnt a journalist, he didnt owe Congress verbatum quotes, he owed Congress the truth, and that truth was represented in the documents of 150 US Vets, many of them also decorated with medals. Now Occam, you better grab a razor. If the simplest explanation is most likely the accurate one, you have to accept the US Navys vetted, contemperainious record surrounding Kerrys medals over the thirty five year old revisionist history of bitter, old, fools.

Coop, for gosh sakes, Kerry was only a Senator on 911, unlike the Commander in Chief there was nothing he could do.

Kerry has maintained that he ferried special forces into Cambodia on different occasions, and other US decorated Vets have admitted to operating in Cambodia. Beyond that, two of his crew mates state they very well could have been in Cambodia.

Let's see, where to begin....

Two crew mates say they could have been in Cambodia? So ...they don't know? Then they weren't ordered there, obviously, which was the point. Presumably, they would have known what their orders were, because knowing that makes them a lot easier to carry out. Kerry never received such an order, according to the entire chain of command above him, so his crew mates had better come up with a lot more than they "could have been" in Cambodia.

Kerry wasnt a journalist, he didnt owe Congress verbatum quotes, he owed Congress the truth, and that truth was represented in the documents of 150 US Vets, many of them also decorated with medals.

Kerry did owe Congress the truth, and Congress clearly has change coming.

A quote is essentially verbatim; characterizing the gist of someone else's comments is called "paraphrasing." That was my point above - Kerry wasn't quoting anyone in his testimony. He didn't repeat their words (more or less), nor did he attribute them. THAT's a quote.

Here's an example: "SSgt. John Edwards of the 69th Sheepshaggers said that in May 1968 he received orders to undergo a lobotomy and join the Democratic Party." NOT: "Some guy in a bar, just before he passed out, said he had a buddy who overheard some guys talking about cutting off some guy's ear."

The latter is known as "scuttlebutt."

Begbee,

You're are a perfect example of liberal debate strategy. When the argument does not go your way, move the goalposts, change the subject, whine, and attempt to belittle your opponent.

1. You made the statement "Its funny that people never point out the only acts of terrorism to take place in this country committed by Americans are committed by the antiabortion nuts that blow up abortion clinics, Centenial Park and the far right whackos that took their war games to the streets of Okie City."
Your allegation that the right committs ALL the domestic terror was directly refuted by documented facts, but you choose to disregard it.
In addition, the left's *intentional* complicity in these acts and the fact that the vast majority of DOMESTIC terror is committed by the left was also unrefuted. If unrefuted, it is accepted.

2. "As to the Kerry Cambodia garbage, the dates may be confused, but two of his crew members have stated that they were often very close to Cambodia, and "may have been in Cambodia, but there arent any street signs". "
Again, the issue is that Kerry repeatedly claimed he had been ordered there on secret missions by superiors. You have not challenged the fact that Kerry has since admitted that account (given repeatedly over 20 years) was completely fabrcated. To go from being ordered there in violation of international law, to "maybe we were lost and went there accidentally" is a difference in type, not details (despite Kerry's claims that it was "seared, seared" in his memory that Vietnamese were singing Christmas carols at the time).
I will add that Kerry also said he heard Nixon on the radio denying they were there, despite the fact that Nixon was not in office at the time. He says he took a CIA man on a 'secret mission' which did not exist. His recent claim (in a letter to the ASPCA) that he had a dog on the boat that was blown overboard by a mine is undercut by NO ONE ever seeing a dog on the boat, no one remembers EVER seeing a dog on ANY swiftboat, and NO report of his boat EVER hitting a mine.

3. The issue of Bush not jumping up and running out of the classroom is bunk, and I will not address it, except to say this:
As an emergency manager, the first 30 minutes of an event are useless to a senior decision maker. If he gotten up and ran to AF1 at that moment, there was no confirmed, valid information he could have acted on. No one knew how many aircraft, if any, were under enemy control, where any hostiles were, or what his actions should be at that moment. You cannot make decisions without information, and information is unconfirmed and contradictory in the early portion of an emergency.
Emergencies are handled by the people at the scene. Ask any military commander about the role of generals in war. Once the fighting starts, the decisions and actions are made by the people on the ground. That seven minutes made NO DIFFERENCE, and furthermore a President screaming and pressing for information only makes things worse.

4. "he didnt owe Congress verbatum quotes, he owed Congress the truth, and that truth was represented in the documents of 150 US Vets, many of them also decorated with medals"
The Winter Soldier investigation has been thoroughly dircredited. Many of the 'witnesses' FALSELY claimed to have served in Vietnam, or had not served in combat. Several witnesses claims were specifically discredited (much like Kerry's claim of having been on a 'secret mission' in Cambodia, or throwing someone else's medals in the pond and claiming them as his own).
There was no vetting or verification, so the entire investigation was not valid from a factual point of view, but then FACTS were never the point.
You say "he owed Congress the truth", and I agree. He shirked that obligation because the truth did not meet his agenda.

There is plenty more, bit I want to see if you will address the ISSUES. If not, I will waste no more bandwidth on you.

Begbee, I have to say I admire your tenacity. Not your application of logic skills; but certainly your tenacity. Most people that are out-argued simply quit.

The question is: If Kerry spewed complete bullshit, would you believe it?

He never was in Cambodia.
Never.
His life-altering experience where he learned to distrust the people running the US government turns out to be a complete fraud.

And your distinction between "war crimes" and "atrocities" is lost on me. Maybe you could provide some clarification. I guess in your world, voting for a "war criminal" is okay, but you draw the line at someone who has committed "atrocities." Whatever.

The Swift Boat dog story is laughably fake.

What is the military record for quickest time to three purple hearts without requiring hospitalization?

And I suppose you'll tell me you voted for Bob Dole in 1996 because he was a genuine WWII hero running against someone with no military experience.

I suppose you'll tell me you'll vote for John McCain or Colin Powell in 2008 instead of Hillary for the same reason.

What is ironic is the Democrats are glomming onto an obviously ridiculous cobweb of half-truths, and calling it heroic.

It now appears that there is something distinctly wrong with his silver medal that has a "V" for valor. Apparently, there is no such official medal. Not only that, but the citation was "signed" by John Lehman, Navy Secretary under Reagan. Only he doesn't recall signing it.

But facts don't really matter, as long as John Kerry said it.

Oh, and why would the CIA send a guy upriver with John Kerry, who obviously had been running the river for only a few weeks at most?

How high does the manure have to be piled before Democrats can recognize it for what it is?

"Vetted"? The medal was vetted? How interesting. I didn't know medals were vetted before being awarded. See, what I thought happens is someone decides to award a medal (usually a CO), and someone else is given the task of looking up the requirements for the different awards and then writing a letter for the CO to sign, and since award recommendations have to be accompanied by a citation, the citation gets written at the lowest level too. The letter and proposed citation then get forwarded up the chain of command to whatever authority has the power to say yay or nay on the medal award, with each intermediate command either saying things like "forwarded" or "forwarded recommending approval" or "forwarded recommending disapproval" or "forwarded recommending downgrade of the medal" or even "returned denied."

Some medals require independent confirmation of the facts which are usually presented in letter form.

I don't know specifically whether the Silver Star requires separate confirmation or whether the CO's initial letter is okay.

The only thing I've heard concerning Kerry's award is that the citation was based on the AA report which Kerry wrote himself.

What I really want to know is what's in those other 95 pages of Kerry's service record that didn't have to be released under the FOIA?

Save your back handed compliments on "tenacity", Im winning.

D Brinkly had Kerrys journals for writing "Tour of Duty". Brinkly asserts Kerry mentions being in Cambodia, and taking Special Forces into Cambodia in his journals. If the journals arent accurate, it means that Kerry was plotting this story long before he ever ran for office. Despite the fact that he was already a war hero. Its no surprise that you attempt to smear the 150 brave, vets that told the truth about Vietnam, it follows the republican trend of attacking vets like Kerry and Mccain. Look, you can attack Kerrys service in Vietnam as much as you want, the fact is he is a war hero, and was risking his life on behalf of the draft dodging cowards that are currently in the White House. Now why dont you take Mccains advice and shut up.

I dont consider property crime to be terrorism. I do consider blowing up abortion clinics, the Atlanta Olympics, gay bars, and the targeting of abortion providers for assassination, terrorism. The tired old accusations of radical groups from the 60s as alligned with the democratic party is nothing more than nonsense. But the last I looked the pro-lifers are alligned with the republicans.

BTW, its not just Kerry proclaiming hes a war hero, its the US Navys assertion as well.

Chicago Cop, National Guard service is indeed honorable if you actually fulfill your committment. There's no evidence that Bush did so.

Begbee,

Is killing police officers a property crime?

http://startribune.com/stories/1395/

You have long since lost this argument.

Jim English
Chicago

Raining Ketchup,

Perhaps you have heard of the expression "Honorable Discharge". That's all the evidence I need. If you have any EVIDENCE that demonstrates why the military was incorrect in giving GWB an honorable discharge, feel free to post it.

Jim English
Chicago

Jim English, So NOW you believe official military records, when the suit your purpose? Of course, Kerry has records which back all his medal claims, and you guys don't believe them.

J English the SLA are a good example of a 60s terrorist group that had nothing to do with the democratic party.

The Swift Boat dog story is laughably fake.

What? Are you saying you don't believe in the heroism of VC The Wonder Dog, Reason?

Why wouldn't someone take a yapping mutt where stealth might well be required literally as a matter of life and death? Why, to watch him fly through the air and land on another boat's deck, of course. The sort of thing that he could probably do once more if he had 5000 attempts.

Seriously, I'm worried about Kerry. His various stories ("Daddy, tell me a story...") are beginning to make him look unbalanced a la Al Gore.

The Cambodia fantasia, VC The Wonder Dog, the CIA guy's manky hat ("pow!") in his briefcase, all make me wonder if he's a well man emotionally. He doesn't tell the stories with a twinkle in his eye, he seems to tell them in earnest. Does he not know the difference between reality and fantasy, or he does he not anticipate the reaction from others? He appears not to recognize the incongruities, which makes we wonder if he's a bit psychotic.

Either way, I worry that he may be in need of some serious couch time.

Rain,

No evidence, huh?

So me where I said we should not believe military records.

Thanks.

Jim English
Chicago

Begbee,

We were talking about leftist vs. rightest terror groups. Your attempt to change the argument further indicates how badly you have lost. Nice try though. I bet you at least fooled yourself.

Jim English
Chicago

Rain,

I meant "show me" not "so me". Sorry

Jim English

Begbee,

Thanks for inadvertantly acknowledging the ELF and ALF DO have something to do with the Democratic Party. We all knew it anyway but it is nice when a partisan Democrat admits to it in writing.

Jim English

Begbee claims:

D Brinkly had Kerrys journals for writing "Tour of Duty". Brinkly asserts Kerry mentions being in Cambodia, and taking Special Forces into Cambodia in his journals.

No. In fact, you have chosen to make up "facts". Again.

His book clearly describes Christmas Eve in Sa Dec, which is fifty miles away from the border.
Your argument is, shall we say, a complete fabrication.

Of course, that is consistent with the entire Kerry campaign.

The more the American public knows John Kerry, the lower he'll go in the polls.

Have we mentioned how John Kerry criminally met with the North Vietnamese in Paris while his "band of brothers" were still getting killed in Vietnam?

Hero, indeed.

Zell Miller is a Democrat who gets it. Unfortunately for the Democratic party, they (in their "rush to nominate") picked a Vietnam vet without fully exploring his record. That's why they will lose.

What strikes me as particularly odd is that Begbee seems to believe he's engaged in a "debate" that he's somehow "winning."

Allow me to clarify: Your assertion was sickening and my intent was to ridicule, not argue ("Sissyjuggersnot" is a vulgarity?). Admirable indeed that Jim English, Reason and others have taken up the charge... but really, if someone is prepared to argue the earth is flat until they are blue in the face, why bother?

You need to distinguish between tenacity (a virtue) and pathology (mental illness) here. Begbee's responses border on pathological (e.g, the proclivity to change priors when confronted with obvious contradictions, making up facts to suit the preferred premise, etc.). Energies better applied elsewhere it seems to me.

J English you were talking about left vs right terrorism groups. I used the term 'right wing whackos' to describe like Mcveigh, Montanas freemen, and Koresh. In speaking to ELF and PETA I said property crimes arent terrorism. You reps love fear so much your calling large scale vandals terrorists. The 60s radicals such as the SLA are to leftist, but have been inactive so long that they have no place in the discussion as they have no relevance in todays world.

Reason, Frank Wilson of the Philadelphia Inquirer writes "Brinkly also says Kerry did go to Cambodia-though not in Christmas of 1968." It appears in todays Augusta Chronicle. That quote makes your comments of "fabrication'" bullshit. You wouldnt look quite so foolish if you stuck to your argument, but you reps cant resist cheap personal attacks.

Gummbi Damnit, I wont attack you personaly, but I will say I own you.

Begbee,

Here is your full quote:
"Its funny that people never point out the only acts of terrorism to take place in this country committed by Americans are committed by the antiabortion nuts that blow up abortion clinics, Centenial Park and the far right whackos that took their war games to the streets of Okie City."

This was Gumbi's response:
"Its funny that people never point out the only acts of terrorism to take place in this country committed by Americans are committed by... far right whackos.." It will no doubt come as a surprise to the Weathermen, the Black Panthers, the Symbionese Liberation Army, the Animal and Earth Liberation Fronts that they are now classified as "far right whackos," although you might get a nod from William Quantrill were he to rise from the grave (do zombies have political affiliations?).

I didn't think it necessary to point out that by "we" I meant all of us.

As to your expiration date for lefty terrorists, I notice your original quote has no such qualifier.

Gumbi's right. In your world the earth is flat. Better be careful, I think you are getting near the edge.

Good luck with the mental illness.

Jim English
Chicago

"Gummbi Damnit, I wont attack you personaly, but I will say I own you."

...Shhh! Not too loudly, Begbee!... the Psychiatric Nurse might overhear you... No sense in losing your internet privileges again, like you did when you tried to sell your manuscript "You're All Terrorists Unless You Agree With Me" to www.kerry.org under the nom de plume "Waffeln das Clown."

Remember, you don't "own" something just because the voices in your head tell you so. Tell the nice men in the white coats to up your dosage, alrighty?

Yes, I know that Brinkley has come out and said Kerry may have gone to Cambodia later in 1969. That certainly isn't what you maintained earlier. But even though you've changed your argument, and tried to move the goalposts, you're still incorrect.

It also is unsupported by facts (i.e. bullshit).

None - as in N-O-N-E - of his crewmates (even those few who are part of the Kerry campaign)claim they went to Cambodia. But even if they did, it certainly doesn't change the central point, which you assiduously avoid: John Kerry's Christmas memory, which was the turning point in his life from being a war hero to completely distrusting the US government, was seared - seared into his memory. His epiphany turns out to be - yes - bullshit.

Don't you get it? If a Vietnam vet, say John McCain, had come up with the identical story, you'd be calling him a lunatic.

And you'd be right. For once.

I'll not reply to begbee further.

It truly amazes me that anyone can believe John "Christmas in Cambodia, look at my Magic Hat, VC the Wonder Dog, I threw my medals (no my ribbons, no someone else's medals), I filmed myself in Vietnam, we cannot contain Communism, I'm a war hero (in 'the biggest nothing in human history'), I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it" Kerry.

Did he mention he served in Vietnam?

But then, you can believe anything if you want to badly enough.

You guys still dont realize that with every personal attack, you admit that you lost the debate on the facts. I have never so much as visited a shrink, or taken a Prozac, but I find your attacks on the mentally ill just so....republican.

Reason try to fly your bullshit by someone else. I never commented on the 60s radicals until someone else did, and even then I never suggested they were to the right, merely irrelevant to the topic because they havent been active in 25 years. On to your next post of complete bullshit. You said I made up Brinklys assertion that Kerry was in Cambodia, I provide you proof that Brinkly had a contemperainous record of Kerry in Cambodia, and you say, basically 'Bahh'. Whos moving goalposts? Then you further distort the record when you state that none of Kerrys crewmates support Kerrys statements of being in Cambodia, because two of them state they may have well been in Cambodia. Further, I stipulated that the claims reguarding Christmas in Cambodia were mistakes likely caused by the fog of war.

Hey Alan, feel free to not to respond to me, your fellow reps are at least amusing...

Gumbi I didnt mean I own you in the sense of slavery, I meant only intellectually, as most of your recent posts were nothing more than personal attacks, with no topical content, that tried to be witty, but failed miserably.

So attacks against property don't constitute terrorism?

This will certainly come as a surprise to ALF and ELF, as their goal - as they have stated repeatedly - is to intimidate (or "terrorize") their targets into changing their behavior by destroying and vandalizing their property. They also have been known to tell various executives and researchers that they know where they live, which constitutes a thinly veiled threat in any book. And not just against their property, either.

That sure sounds like "terrorism" to me.

Perhaps there is a different definition of terrorism out there?

Incidentally, the only reason 1960s radicals were brought up was because it had been suggested on this thread that the perpetrators of terrorism in the United States exclusively hail from the right side of the political spectrum.

This has been proven false, of course, by those whose knowledge of American history extends beyond 1992.

A person can have an extensive knowledge of pre 1992 history and not include the 60s radicals in this discussion at all. Because they have been inactive so long they have no relevance in todays world. Which is what I was referring to with my comments about right to life bombers and militia men.

Do you think PETA or ELF fit in a discussion of Al Qaeda and their ilk? Theres a big difference between an unoccupied SUV lot torched, or some lab animals released, then say, a decapitation video, or the bombing of the Atlanta Olympics.

You guys still dont realize that with every personal attack, you admit that you lost the debate on the facts. I have never so much as visited a shrink, or taken a Prozac, but I find your attacks on the mentally ill just so....republican.

Speaking of personal attacks and failing miserably at attempting to be witty...wow. You could forge nails with the irony.

Feel free to show were I make a personal attack. Perhaps Im forgetting something, but even when responding to personal attacks, I havent made many.

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