Asymmetrical Information

I am a declared fan of George R. R. Martin in his first incarnation (through about 1983, I guess, ending with the whimper of Tuf Voyaging and Dying of the Light). I had always assumed that his later incarnation was a sellout. Is there anyone who has read both and can really compare?

Im not familiar with Martin, while I realize Dying of the Light is a fairly common phrase, I think he likely cribbed it from a Dylan Thomas Poem. You know, "rage, rage against..."

Just finished Michael Connely's The Narrows and I highly recommend it. It's another in the Bosch series, it can stand alone, but I would recommend reading The Poet first. If Mystery/Suspense floats yer boat.

Martin r0xx0r5!

A Song of Ice and Fire (the name of the series) is definately one of the best Fantasy reads for me in a long time...he's deliciously evil about killing off/maiming characters that you have grown to love at the drop of a hat. Definitely no MCI in this book (Main Character Immunity).

The only problem with it is waiting for book four to come out (which he's been writing for the past 2.5 years).

If you like Martin you should also check out Janny Wurts (www.paravia.com). She's another one of those amazing authors with interesting takes on the whole fantasy aspect. To Ride Hell's Chasm is a standalone novel she recently wrote that I highly recommend. Her ongoing series (of which the most recent book just came out) is called The Wars of Light and Shadow. She also coauthored some books in Raymond E Feist's Riftwar universe with Feist that are VERY good.

Oh yeah...in case you didn't know it - www.georgerrmartin.com is Martin's website - duh!

Ditto Michael above on the works of George Rail Road Martin. I'm going a little nuts waiting for the fourth Song Of Ice And Fire novel. Martin has said there will be six in all.

Enjoy!

If you're going to read Levin, don't forget
about "This Perfect Day".

Minor note: The third book in the Song of Ice and Fire was released in the UK several months before the US--apparently it has been selling better on the other side of the pond.

I love Martin, his characters are fascinating but the political games his characters play are almost even more fascinating. If you like Martin, you will probably like the Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire series. His books are long (no I'm not kidding, really long) but I find them fascinating. Erikson is an archaeologist and it shows in his society-building and myth structures. The stories take place in an empire at (or maybe just past) its peak and tells stories both from the side of the Empire and those whose resist its power. Interestingly, five books in I'm still not sure which side I want to win. The first book in the series is "Gardens of the Moon". The series is available in the UK, but not all of the books are available in the US.

One interesting facet of the story is that the characters are extremely powerful without ruining the story. There is a character who destroyed an entire continent out of spite, and he isn't even in the top five characters in terms of power level.

God, I adore Railroad Tycoon 3. I've worked through the campaign on Medium (too gunshy when I started the game, of course it got easier once I got through it) and am now hitting all the scenarios on Hard. The improvement in computer games over the years seems as miraculous to me as fax machines and jet travel must have seemed to our grandparents. If you'd asked me at age 14 what factor in my life would still be important at age 28, I don't think I would ever have guessed Railroad Tycoon.

Martin is topnotch. Considering you've read Hobbs, I'm a bit surprised that you haven't read Martin earlier. And since your in GBR, grab the Erikson series. Folks I know who liked Martin, Like Erikson(although I haven't gotten to it yet).

Martin's drawback is that he's a bit stuck in his 4th book. Was supposed to come out fall of '03...I'm just praying he doesn't join the "fiction authors who can't end a series" camp.

BTW, I read your Tawny Man recommendation. I had read the first three and was a bit disappointed in it. Liked Tawny a lot better and makes Fitz more likable. Only downside is that it feels like she's rushing the last few pages to get the ending done. A good read though.

I burned through Game of Thrones in a few days which was impressive for me given it's ~800 pages. I eagerly started to read the sequel, got about 100 pages in, then gave up and never went back.

It finally hit me as I was reading the sequel that Martin hadn't written a story in Game of Thrones -- he'd written an extremely detailed timeline of events. There's a battle here and a battle there, this character fights, that character betrays, yet another character is ambushed and killed.

But the *story* was going nowhere. There was no point, no philosophical axes to grind, no message or idea to be conveyed. It was basically a soap opera in a low-magic, medieval setting. And once I realized that all these events happening to all these myriad characters weren't actually going anywhere, I lost interest.

As far as I can tell, Martin's books are actually based on the War of the Roses (with the Starks and Lannisters standing in for the Yorks and Lancasters). Personally, I'd be interested in reading a history of the War of the Roses. But I'm not interested in reading a reenactment of it in a fictional setting unless the author has some greater point he's trying to make than the reenactment itself.

So, thanks but no thanks.

DRB,

The plots advance, they just don't advance as fast as you wish.

I've heard it said that The Song of Ice and Fire is based in large part on England's War of the Roses. I find it more like the struggle between Stephen and Maud at the turn of the 12th century. And much like the Three Kingdoms period in China and the Year of 5 Emperors of the Roman Empire.

Add in a touch of Revelations and Call of Cthulhu with a dash of the Silmarillion -especially the early parts - and you get a very depressing situation. It's gloomy.

And, yes, there is not much progress. Not in the way progress occurs in, say, a movie or technothriller.

One thing it helps to remember is that Martin is dealing with a world. Events occurring far away from the main action can have a great impact on the it. And a lot is going on.

It's complex, involved. Had Tolkein devoted as much attention to events occurring off-screen The Lord of the Rings would be a far heftier work than it is. But, the detail is needed if one is to understand what is going on in The Song of Ice and Fire.

Finally, it is a political work. It is a nuanced work. Even the worst can do good, even the best commit crimes most vile. While there is evil, it is not impersonal. Rather, it arises out of human needs, dreams, and desires.

In short, it is a human work. We're not dealing with heroes of yore and archetypes out of legend, we're dealing with people with all their flaws and failings. And with all their virtues and strengths.

Nothing happens in A Song of Ice and Fire? On the contrary, life happens. A confused, bloody, crisis strewn life in a world in turmoil, and that is what gives the work its strength.

Another Ira Levin fan!

Levin is similar to Phillip K. Dick in my opinion, because his writing is almost completely dependent on the creepy fascination of his ideas.

Read _The Boys from Brazil_ next. It's also a fine movie (as are almost all of his books).

Alan,

You misunderstand. I firmly agree that all kinds of things happen in Mr. Martin's work. And contrary to your assertion, scene after scene occurs that would fit very well in a movie or technothriller (suitably rewritten for setting). The plot advances very quickly, there are multiple twists and turns, surprises, revelations, no black and white characters, people with flaws and failings, yes -- absolutely. I said I read the first book in just a couple days which is unusual for me. That's because I couldn't wait to find out what happened next.

But 100 pages into the sequel it became clear that it's all sound and fury signifying nothing. Martin has no message. Let me make it perfectly clear that I think Martin has plenty of *plot*. It's the ideas and themes that are lacking.

Martin is very skillfully writing a sprawling plotline/timeline of events, essentially copying out a complex, "nuanced" history. But history has no overarching theme or philosophical idea it is trying to get across. Neither does Martin. Like history, Martin's timeline just *is*.

Well, that's fine for a history book, but from a work of fiction I expect more.

Martin's work is like a soap opera or professional wrestling. Events just continue to happen, people do good things and bad, betray, team up, fight and all the rest. And if you tune in next week, something exciting and different will happen again! Great. But so what? The way people rave about how "nuanced" and "complex" Martin is, I get the feeling they've never read anything but Robert Jordan and the Star Wars book-of-the-month.

I'll freely grant that Martin is probably a better writer and more "nuanced" (or whatever) than Goodkind or Jordan. But he doesn't hold a candle to Gene Wolfe, Ursula LeGuin, Phillip K. Dick, Dan Simmons or Robert Heinlein -- people who can write a hell of a story and also convey some actual ideas while they're doing it.

Martin wrote a short story called "Sandkings" which is one of the creepiest things I've ever read. Makes your skin crawl.

As for gaming, a couple of other "world-builder" type games that will suck the time right out of your life are Zoo Tycoon and Roller Coaster Tycoon 3.

DRB,

Message? Why would you need a message? What about story?

Aldous Huxley (On Herbert George Wells): For he has sold his story for the pot of message.

Sammler, I disagree about Martin's Tuf Voyaging, I think it's an excellent SF novel (tho an assembly of short stories). It's very much SF, not Fantasy, so I don't know if Megan would be interested.

The interlude between Martin's earlier work and current stuff was time he spent in Hollywood, working on Beauty & The Beast and some other TV series, and pitching some new series which didn't go anywhere. He also worked on the Wild Cards anthologies, which I haven't followed much. I recommend the book Quartet, which includes a screenplay for a pilot that Martin never quite sold. Overall, I think his Hollywood stint has made his writing more visual, but he's also reacting to TV's time limits by producing much longer work.

I sympathize with DRB's point. I found the first two books of SF&I very interesting, but also very time consuming. And there's definitely an element of the soap opera. Not sure I agree about the lack of message, I'll have to think about that. Frankly, knowing I'll have to wait a couple of years to find out what happens next does not encourage me to run out and get each new book in the series.

Speaking of which: Hoo, you'll be happy to know that Amazon says A Feast for Crows, book 4 in A Song of Fire and Ice, is due out in late July.

I have wasted more time playing Civ III than any grown adult should. It's truly awful to look up and find it's 4 a.m. and realize you have to go to work at 7:30, after getting the kids off to school ....What a great game, though!

For the record, that release date on Book 4 in SF&I keeps moving further and further back...

I've read a good chunk of fantasy over the years, but the best writing would have to be that of George R.R. Martin, Neil Gaiman, and Robin Hobb (Megan Lindholm). Luckily, Martin is willing to kill off characters at any moment thereby freeing him from the excesses of a Robert Jordan in keeping everyone alive and keeping their storylines intact somehow without writing too much.. Epic fantasy is supposed to be epic, but not too contrived if you want to hold an audience.

Levin at his best totally nails the vaguely paranoid apprehension of a subculture, and what's especially fascinating is that he's done it successfully for both urban America ("Rosemary's Baby") and suburban America ("The Stepford Wives").

Unfortunately, he isn't consistent: "Sliver" was, regrettably, not merely a bad movie, but a bad book. On the other hand, it did anticipate David Brin's "The Transparent Society" by several years.

When you're done with Levin, you might wish to read Stephen King's perspective on horror from 1950-1980, "Danse Macabre." That is some fascinating reading.

Oh, and Civilization III is for kindergarteners. Real women play Europa Universalis II.

Why, why would anyone play Civilization III when you can still find Civilization II? I was really excited when I got Civ III, but I just didn't think it was nearly as good a game.

God, I love your name!

And Orson Scott Card is one of my favorite authors. I highly reccomend his Women of Genesis books -- and I'm a deterministic almost-atheist! Read Snow Crash, or the Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson?

In addition, Orson Scott Card has a weekly column available here http://www.ornery.org/index.html -- I enjoy the articles he's writ

Alan,

Story is fine. Martin doesn't have one. He just has a plotline.

Which is not to say people shouldn't enjoy Martin's work. I have at various times in my life enjoyed watching both soap operas and professional wrestling, because it can be great fun to find out what's going to happen next.

I just didn't go around talking about how exceptionally complex and nuanced they were. I didn't rave about what a monumental, groundbreaking, fantastic work the writers of the soap opera or the wrestling show had put together.

That said, I will hereby declare that Martin is fine, especially if your basis for comparison is Goodkind.

Card also has a book of short stories called First Meetings which is set in Ender's world, and includes Ender's first meeting with Jane. Highly recommended.

I'm reading Martin's massive fantasy novels hoping against experience that they aren't like all his other work: what starts with a bang ends with a whimper. I'm still trying to figure out how "Fevre Dream" just faded away at the end.

You're making me feel old - you're discovering authors and games I've been reading or playing for years (when you throw in all three versions of both games).

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