Asymmetrical Information

Kevin Trudeau has been trying to make people aware that drug companies are very powerful. His point of view is that if people eat moderately and eat the proper foods and live a good lifestyle, they're going to reduce some health problems.

Drug companies don't make money if you eat fresh vegetables and live a healthy lifestyle. The only companies who make money on fresh vegetables are the farmers. There are no "add value services" that need be performed on fresh vegetables. It's whe you start to process these foods that the companies get concerned.

Drug companies have much more money than "herbal" companies to lobby the governments.

I have to agree with Kevin Trudeau to a great degree. I believe in natural cures if possible. Drug companies discredit natural cures because they're not profitable.

Example of natural cure that worked: Kevin Trudeau mentioned that people take antacids like Tums when they have stomach discomfort. Kevin Trudeau suggested to take a few teaspoons of natural cider vinegar which contains 5% acid content. REASON: Your stomach needs more acid. It doesn't need less acid which Tums will take away.

I tried this and it worked. As soon as I tried the vinegar my heartburn went away. Obviously each person needs to do tests for themselves.

It's just a case that a simple solution such as apple cider vinegar doesn't make Tums the money. Healthy - natural lifestyle solutions don't make the drug companies money.

"Drug companies don't make money if you eat fresh vegetables and live a healthy lifestyle."

Sure they would. Countless generations of human beings ate fresh vegetables and lived a healthy lifestyle - and they got sick plenty of times.

Sitting on your butt and eating crap gives you another way to get sick, but we weren't anywhere close to lacking ways to get sick without that sort of behavior. This guy peddles bullshit, the drug companies sell the real deal, and people cure and survive illness a hell of a lot better with the good stuff.

What I find interesting is that the FDA will put roadblock after roadblock in your way when you wish to acquire actual, working medicine but will stand back and let you buy any fake "herbal" medicine you want. How does this protect you, exactly?

I thought exercise and eating right was mainly a preventive for type II diabetes. Once you've killed your insulin-producing cells with decades of gorging on sugar and insufficient exercise, they aren't coming back. Not that saving whatever ones are left isn't pretty important, and once you get to where you have to inject insulin, you've really got to control your diet or go blind and die. So what does Trudeau tell you to do that any doctor doesn't?

Also, in Derek Lowe's blog he says that Trudeau is claiming to treat type I diabetes with herbs and diet. Type I is a genetic defect that kills off the insulin-producing cells in childhood. It was well-known to the medical profession back when the only treatments they had were diet, herbs, surgery, and prayer - and they never found anything that would enable a kid with type I diabetes to survive to adulthood. Trying to treat that with diet alone rather than insulin and diet can kill kids.

ken: wow.. you obviously been sucked into the drug companies marketing propoganda.

I agree that advancements in the drug area have come along way since the 1700's when people were at the mercy of diseases etc.

What I don't like is when people don't eat properly. Fast food restaurant consumption is at an all time high. People live a high stress, mechanical, lifestyle.

People are getting sick because of their poor lifestyle. Then they lazily rely on drug company products for their solutions.

In this day and age, it's really difficult for people to eat unprocessed fresh vegetables. People are too busy and stressed out to make good meals at home. It's much easier to eat processed foods.

I would venture to say that if people slowed down their life styles, exercised properly, ate properly, etc the drug companies would sell far less product.

I'm not talking about non-lifestyle diseases.

People don't take the time to get educated on health. People need to get more educated on health and eating properly.

And then there's the topic of ... VIOXX

The problem with these hucksters is not that they kill the stupid and gullible. It's that they don't kill them fast enough to improve the gene pool in any significant way.

markm: "So what does Trudeau tell you to do that any doctor doesn't?"

Doctors won't tell you about or recommend any herbal remedies. They're not trained in herbal remedies. I've asked them several times.

example: candidas albicans. I went to a blood analyst who suggested that I had high levels of candidas albicans which is a yeast infection of the blood. As she looked at blood samples she pointed these toxins to me.

I went to the doctor who indicated that he didn't know about candidas albicans and didn't believe in it!! Thus wouldn't recommend any drugs. He was going to give me some anti depressants. Candidas albicans make a person sluggish and apathetic. Anti-depressants would have only made the situation worse.

I spent the next few months doing system cleansing, including colon cleansing and eating better. After 2 months, I started feeling better and my head cleared up.

If I started taking anti depressants, I would still be messed up. I lost alot of respect for the medical industry at that point.

Doctors don't tell people about anything other than drug company products.

In the beginning when God created Adam and Eve, they didn't have drug companies. Adam and Eve ate fresh fruits and vegetables.

I've spent hundreds of hours studying natural solutions because of my own health situation. I've been able to bring my health in a much better situation by staying away from drug company products.

Warmongering Lunatic: When you say hucksters you're obviously talking about the drug companies?!!

Monty, you're obviously a true believer.

Tell me, what's in "Fast Food" that's different than any other food you buy, other than the fact it's convenient and you can get fries with that?

It's quantity that's the problem, not quality.

You have a whole bunch of generalizations and one wild guess.

And if you want to bring up VIOXX, I think that there's a lot to be said about what went wrong with that trial. I'd also like to add that, on a personal note, I have a relative who's lived with pain for almost 15 years, and the ONLY relief she's gotten is when VIOXX was a part of her regimen. She'd use it again in a minute.

whoops. Never mind my last comment. I just saw the invocation of Adam and Eve. I can see where this is going to go down the same road as an evolution discussion...

Actually, the wonder drug is called crystal meth, but in addition to getting one out and up from the barcalounger, it also has significant negative side effects....

The Adam and Eve reference isn't religious. I try to look back to when the world was a little less mechanized.

I am a believer because out of health desparation I was able to learn some things that really helped me out.

Fast foods: did you watch SuperSize Me. That says it all for me.

I didn't say drugs and medicine are bad. I'm just saying that people could live a much better lifestyle.

People like yourself are a drug companies' dream. You're what they're looking for to help their bottom line. I love the fast food comment. Total ignorance.

BTW... my blog is about financial maturity. Kevin Trudeau is talking about health and eating maturity.

I have the same problems with lazy solutions financially as I do with people and their health. We're in a lazy, convenience driven society.

Hi, Monty. I work for a drug company. Right now, I'm doing research on new compounds that we hope will work on things like pancreatic cancer, metastatic melanoma, kidney cancer, and lung cancer. Right now, if you are unfortunate enough to get any of these, you die in agony. (People came down with them even back when things were less mechanized, you know.) If we work really hard, spend a huge amount of money, and get really, really lucky, we might be able to do something about that. Explain to me, please, how I am duping people? And how these patients would be better off the all-natural way?

Excuse the tone of voice. I get testy in these situations.

Derek: I mentioned in my post that there are exceptions to all rules.

Can you dispute that we live in a lazy convenience driven society?

I'm talking about health problems that are caused by lifestyle situations. I'm talking about health situations that people can control.

Example... my step mother is over weight, and obese. Her diet is horrible. She has diabetes. She relies on the drug companies.

She could lose weight and possibly lose the diabetes if she altered her diet and exercised.

She refuses to live a healthy lifestyle.

I hate to see her like this. I have no control over her situation.

Go get'em Derek!

Monty-
Isn't Candidas albicans a beneficial, normal part of the bowel flora? Was you "blood analyst" an MD or a quack?

The book reviews on Amazon indicate that this Trudeau clown supports Scientology as part of jis cure.

Lab Rat: Candidas Albicans is as you say. However, it grows rampant and takes over the system with high stress and poor health management.

I suffered from chronic fatigue disease for years. Suffered. It was my fault. I overworked and ate poorly.

The only answer the doctors had were anti depressants. Hmmm... Imagine why I'm so passionate about this. My research worked for me after working at it diligently.

It's hard to discuss this with arrogant, self absorbed drug company workers. Drug company workers are motivated by profits. PERIOD.

Kevin Trudeau is a huckster who has lied and manipulated the public before. He might be right about some things, but that's just an accident.

http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/FTCActions/trudeau.html

Many great American Brilliant inventions were created by accident.

Speaking for the other arrogant, self-absorbed drug company workers, I'd like to point out that Monty has one thing right: we are motivated by profit.

That's not the only thing - I find my work more stimulating than, say, reformulating fabric softener sheets, and that's because I know that if I succeed that my work will help desperately ill people. I've had family members that need what I'm trying to find. But knowing that I can do that while providing for myself and my children is even better.

We profit-mongering drug companies can't sell anything without going through the FDA, and the FDA makes us prove that our drugs actually do something. So, given the fact that we can't just sell people distilled water - like the homeopathy outfits do - what is our best guarantee of the largest profits? Drugs that work. Drugs that make people better.

That's capitalism, with Adam Smith's invisible hand wearing a lab coat. We try to make money, in a system set up so that we can do so by making useful medicines. It isn't perfect, but it sure beats every other method I've seen.

Forgot to add: the reason he can make these claims is that he is selling a book, whose sale cannot be restricted because of the first amendment.

Seems to me the schools have been educating people about diet and exercise since the 1950's (at least). The answer always seems to be "more education" when what they really mean is "too bad we don't have a mechanism to force people to do what I say." Pretty soon everyone is going to be employed by, or watched closely by, a food policeman, a safety policeman, a compassion policeman, a child rearing policeman, a financial awareness policeman......

Final Comment:

Derek: I'm glad you like your job. It sounds terrific.

Derek and other commenters: Can you comment about the lazy convenience driven society we live in? You don't seem to be arguing about that.

I don't want to police your health.. people are free agents. I just hate one sided discussions that are meant to crucify somebody's character.

The society is what it is.. People have choices. I will choose a drug situation if that's the last and only option. Otherwise I stay away from them like the plague.

I am saying something that is really unromantic and unexciting: Eat well, exercise, and live properly. Raw carrots and potatoes and corn aren't all that sexy and exciting. They're not R&D driven. They're hard to market.

I would rather eat a raw carrot than take a chemical pill anyday.

Best,

Later

Morgan - This is in response to your reference to the movie, "Super Size Me". You said: "Fast foods: did you watch SuperSize Me. That says it all for me."

Super Size Me was hardly a balanced look at fast food. The author went to McDonalds and intentionally ordered and ate a diet of foods designed to make him fat. He could have done the same thing at ANY supermarket in the country! Want proof? Here's a link to an article describing the diets of two people who ate nothing but McDonalds food for 30 days and LOST weight! As the article points out, neither dieter choose the best diet that could have been constructed from the McDonald's menu. Still, both managed to lose weight while improving in most diet related health measures. It's not where the food is prepared, it's the quantity and the type that matters.

Here's the link: http://www.techcentralstation.com/090804G.html

Yes, some people are lazy and prefer fast food to healthy food. But exactly how is that the fault of the drug companies?

In this day and age, it's really difficult for people to eat unprocessed fresh vegetables.

In this day and age, it's easier to eat fresh vegetables than in any time in human history. Before cheap transportation, you could eat whatever grew locally whenever it was in season. The rest of the year, you ate what could be dried or canned or preserved in some way. Now I can go into my grocery store and buy broccoli and zucchini year round, and the selection of veggies is much higher than it was when I was growing up in the 70s.

Monty,

I'm puzzled by this claim way up-thread:

In this day and age, it's really difficult for people to eat unprocessed fresh vegetables. People are too busy and stressed out to make good meals at home. It's much easier to eat processed foods.

Nonsense. You can buy good fresh vegetables in every supermarket, and a lot of them are quite tasty with no preparation at all beyond rinsing them thoroughly. Same with fruits. If you'd rather cook them than eat them raw, you can steam most of them in a microwave in two or three minutes. It's not a bit more difficult or time-consuming to buy a head of broccoli, roughly chop it, and steam it than it is to buy a frozen burrito and heat that. If you allow frozen veggies, canned tomatoes (good fresh tomatoes are still kind of rare), and the like, even easier, because you don't have to worry about using everything before it goes bad.

People who eat a lot of processed foods are people who like fat, salt, and sugar and don't find them in fresh vegetables in sufficient quantities, not people who don't have time for fresh vegetables.

I'm curious also about your claim that heartburn is caused by too little acid rather than too much, and more curious that no one else is curious. Anyone else care to comment on this? Having spent one almost-totally-sleepless night during the last week afflicted by a restless tummy that the generic equivalent of Tums had no effect on whatsoever, I'm curious if others have any experience with your remedy. I can't really see swallowing a mouthful of apple cider vinegar neat, but OTOH that was really a very bad night indeed . . .

shell, now that's a coincidence. Especially since I actually did mean to add that it's easier to get fresh veggies now than at any time in human history, and also that "convenience foods" are nothing new; I grew up, also in the 70s, on a diet rich in wholesome things like SPAM and TV dinners. (Then my parents went ovo-lacto vegetarian, resulting in bagged school lunches containing such goodies as sandwiches of shredded mozzarella, shredded carrots, and bean sprouts . . . whole 'nother tale, that.)

This is an interesting discussion.
There are those that are incredibly jaded about health products, exercise, and health food, who say:
"Eat well, exercise every day, don't drink, don't smoke.... and die anyway."

Where as people wouldn't dare put sand in their gas tanks, why would you put unhealthy food / garbage in your mouth?

Health Luvr,

Where as people wouldn't dare put sand in their gas tanks, why would you put unhealthy food / garbage in your mouth?

Well, see, you don't put sand in your gas tank because the only reason to put anything at all in your gas tank is to make the car run. OTOH, while people do need food to keep going, there are other desiderata involved. It is possible to "enjoy eating" in a sense beyond "I have now received enough nutriment to keep me alive for the present."

Throw in that official, authoritative dietary advice is so weathervane-like in behavior that anyone who tried to follow it conscientiously would have a different list of "unhealthy" (unhealthful?) foods every month or two. Someone really should write a history of popular and/or official dietary recommendations in the US over the past, say, six decades, and see what someone from then to now would have had to do to comply with each in turn.

Personally, I think Henri Fondula above has it about right.

Jane asked: "How," I wondered, "can this man make these claims on television without some regulatory agency slapping him upside the head with a cease and desist order?"

Simple. The first amendment allows him to.

Since he isn't selling any of the cures he recommends he doesn't have to subtantiate any of the claims.

Since he isn't seeing clients in person to tell them what might cure what ails them he isn't practicing medicine.

It would be an interesting question as to what liability he might have if someone followed his advice and didn't get better.

Monty,

Your kind of rhetoric is especially dangerous to the elderly. If you've ever taken an old friend or grandparent to the hospital who was suffering from malnutrition and dehydration because she was following the diet and supplement advice of a frigging witch-doctor like yourself, you'd know what a despicable excuse for a human being you really are. I cannot communicate my hostility toward you enough and my sincere hope is that your next colon cleaning session results in inoperable rectal bleeding. You truly suck.

Sincerely,

Me.

"There are no "add value services" that need be performed on fresh vegetables."

One word for you: "Organic".

Yeah, those inorganic veggies are really tough to eat.

I hate it when people equate natural with safe, much less effective. Whenever anyone tries to convince me that something is better because it's natural, my response is always, "so are toadstools."

OTOH, I don't think there's much doubt that a balanced diet that includes a lot of fresh fruits and veggies will serve a person a lot better over time than one that is weighted toward fast food and convenience items (even with Lipitor and arthritis meds). Sure there is a pendulum effect on nutritional advice, but that part has never changed. The pendulum is in large part because the food industry reacts to the latest advice by putting out or re-advertising convenience items so that they technically comply with the advice, but don't really address the underlying message. Take the old low-fat diet. It was sound advice. Then we got SnackWells and ads about Twizzlers and 3 Musketeers being low fat, and people totally ignored the part about whole grains being filling. We're now seeing the same thing with low-carb.

Pharmaceuticals have their place, but shouldn't be a first resort when lifestyle changes will accomplish the same benefits, and most of the side effects are positive.

Finally, people do have the choice to piss away their health with poor diet, no exercise, smoking . . ., but when they stroke out and have to spend the rest of their lives in a nursing home, they become a burden on their loved ones at best, the whole nation of taxpayers at worst.

denise,

Finally, people do have the choice to piss away their health with poor diet, no exercise, smoking . . ., but when they stroke out and have to spend the rest of their lives in a nursing home, they become a burden on their loved ones at best, the whole nation of taxpayers at worst.

In other words, let's try a little social opprobrium here. (Hey, it's working nicely with smoking; why not?) But if that doesn't work, let's remember who's ultimately footing the bill if you get sick by not following instructions, and remember what the guy paying the piper traditionally gets to do. Are visions of compulsory calisthenics sessions dancing in anyone else's heads?

Michelle:

Absolutely. If I'm really, really paying for everyone's health care, then let's do it right and have forced workout sessions.

I suppose that the most plausible way of doing it would be to have universal health care, a tax on fat people and 'breaks' for those with attendance for workout classes.

Imagine the chaos. Yeesh.

OMG... Yep! Fresh Vegetables aren't going to help Chernobyl victims. Fresh vegetables aren't going to cure HIV victims. Fresh vegetables aren't going to cure SARS or the new bird flu.

Brad Hutchings: I guess we could talk about all of the health problems, for all people, of all ages around the world in this topic area. I don't have the time nor the inclination to do so.

As I mentioned, there are a time and a place for drug products. Being a bad work aholic myself who has developed several different companies, I have abused my body by over working over a period of years. That's my fault. I have also learned the kinder gentler method of rebuilding my body and system using some of the basic foods. I didn't have to resort to drugs as the doctors would have had me do. I speak from some of my own experience.

I can't believe that I would be described as a freaking witch doctor by talking about VEGETABLES! Grow up for heavens sake!

Post Disclaimer: Yhese are my opinions, Monty Loree is not a doctor, herbologist or employed in any business in the medical - drug - herb growing industries. Caution when reading these posts. Please consult a physician and an herbologist to help you define your opinion on this topic.

Monty,

No, I think what a few of us asked was why you should claim that people today "find it really difficult to eat fresh unprocessed vegetables." Because, you know, I find it extremely easy. You grab a bunch of carrots of any supermarket shelf, pick one, rinse, and eat. Neither difficult nor complicated.

I don't particularly care whether anyone says carrots cure SARS. I'm just saying that I eat them frequently, and they are not "very difficult" to obtain.

Klug,

I should have added the Monty Python [***SARCASM! SARCASM!***] sign. Sorry.

Sorry for the oversight Michelle.

Well after the end of a 12 hour high stress day, the last thing I want to do is cook from scratch. I am more attracted to the preprocessed easy solutions.

I've got to work doubly hard to get myself into the creative cooking mode, even if it means cutting up some vegetables and making a salad. I find that pretty taxing some times.

As well, my wife who works a full day finds it difficult to come home take care of the kids and then cook supper.

I'm sure I'm not the only exhausted person here.
I have to fight very hard to keep to the fresh and good food schedule. Otherwise I would tend to eat convenience food most of the time.

And yes.. vegetables are plentiful these days. They're easy to buy.

Sorry for the sarcasm... I am surprised by the replies in this topic area.

Hey, Monty, no offense taken. Around here, "convenience food" = bunch of spaghetti, can of crushed tomatoes, a little garlic, a little olive oil, a little parsley or basil [frozen, that — there are these cute little cubes at Trader Joe's], salt and pepper, and TJ's shaved Grana Padano cheese. And (horrors!) sometimes a can of tuna. I can make dinner out of that in 20 minutes, and so could anyone with access to a stove. The difficult part is getting up the energy to clean up afterwards.

Michelle -- I know. But it's something that I have thought about before as being theoretically perfect and completely impractical.

I was about to add an "Oh no, we're not going to have the 'Why are poor people fat?' debate again?" comment. But I see it's already hit the Trader Joe-based recipe dueling stage, so I guess that's a lost cause.

Moving on to Monty -- my suggestion:

1) Get a passport and visit a village with no "lazy conveniences". Guatemala, New Guinea and Lesotho are just a few of your options.

2) Ask some of the wizened old people how old they are. Try not to show horror when they turn out to be in their forties. Ask them about their children, and how many lived to adulthood.

3) Come back and tell us how much you envy Adam and Eve now.

"How," I wondered, "can this man make these claims on television without some regulatory agency slapping him upside the head with a cease and desist order?"

Probably because every regulatory agency that doesn't have to do with clamping down on TV boobage has been slashed to the bone.

Conservatives run DC. They're not big on federal regulation of entities that make lots of money, unless they're going to be against the prevailing Christian fundamentalist "wisdom".

JSinger,

Is that the new Godwin's Law, then? Mention TJ's and the thread's dead? (Look, I was only mentioning their little frozen herb-cube things because I use them. Fresh parsley and basil are cheaper and readily available, but come in bigger quantities, so it's harder to use everything before it spoils.)

What Monty said was that it's very difficult for people to eat fresh vegetables today. What I said was that it's very easy. (I made no statement about whether they're better for you or not, more fattening or not, &c. I'd think an exclusive vegetable diet that wasn't carefully planned would be rather bad for you.) "How to make spaghetti in 20 minutes" was just an illustration that a few ingredients and some hot water aren't "inconvenient." If I can throw that together after getting home from a performance at 11:30 p.m., nearly anyone could.

JSinger: 1) ?? 2) ?? 3) ??

Great visiting with you folks today.
Did we resolve anything? Just blowing off steam?

Carla:

Actually, the Bush administration is simply following the law, within which Trudeau is operating. (The Salon link explains this in detail; "boobage" is not a factor.) That'd be the law sponsored and pushed through by noted Christian fundamentalist conservative Henry Waxman.

Michelle Dulak Thomson:

If you're talking about the original formulation of Godwin's Law, I suppose you're right. As any discussion here grows longer, the probability of convergence to the recurring argument about diet approaches 1.

JSinger,

Well, all I can say is that I wasn't heading in that direction, and didn't want to.

I'm curious also about your claim that heartburn is caused by too little acid rather than too much, and more curious that no one else is curious. Anyone else care to comment on this?

Some people suffer indigestion not from too much stomach acid, but from too little. Reportedly my grandfather in his younger years had this problem, and would gobble down Tums to no effect, until someone else knowledgable about acid deficit pointed him in the opposite direction -- to acid supplements. He started taking those for his indigestion, and did much better thereafter.

I suppose cider vinegar is one way to obtain acid, albeit dilluted to just 5% by volume, which is probably only beneficial to those with a borderline case. Unless, of course, you really really LIKE drinking cider vinegar.

Monty Loree:

Try not to feign surprise at the reactions you have generated. When a person waltzes in the door braying about drug company stooges and propaganda, s/he will receive in kind.

Few sane people would debate the merits of eating a balanced diet, and equally few would denigrate the merits of natural therapy -- when those benefits are practical and attainable. Problem is, just as there are people promoting drugs for every ailment, there are others doing the exact same thing for herbal remedies, but without the culling benefits of controlled experimental trials and FDA checks on what is claimed. Some natural remedies are valid (by degrees), some are pure snake oil, and regarding the latter, it is possible to obtain placebo benefits from a concoction that has no chemical benefits at all.

In other words, if you want to be taken seriously, temper your enthusiasm with pragmatism and lose the tendency to spout the evangelical herbalist talking points (Profits and propaganda and pills, oh my!).

Let's see about lifestyle issues.

Drugs companies may not have much of an interest in advertising exercise and healthy eating.

Gym owners, sports equipment manufacturers, sports magazine editors, exercise machine sellers, adventure tourism agents, etc, do. I see plenty of ads around, on billboards, in magazines and on TV showing healthy people bouncing off the wall exercising.

But it's time consuming and often unpleasant (lungs labouring away, getting up early in the morning in the dark and the cold, muscle aches especially when you first start). And it's something that can be put off to tomorrow (it's not like I'm not going to exercise, I will. Tomorrow). Any advertising campaign in favour of exercise is going to have an uphill battle in terms of actual positive effects.

And a more relaxed lifestyle? Attractive in the abstract. But in the concrete, I don't really want to cut back on my hobbies, or time spent with my friends and family, or have a dirtier home (I hardly suffer from an OCD as it is, but once the leftovers in the fridge start proving Pythagoras's theorem I believe it's time to get out the cleaning fluid), and if we follow your advice about exercise I'm not going to cut back on that, or on cooking fresh vegetables, and I don't want to cut back on my community activities, or on travel, and I don't want to cut back on my job that pays for it all. I think part of the reason we have busier lives now is that it is more attractive to do so.

We all know the old joke:
Doctor: I'm afraid you have only a year left to live.
Patient: Oh my god! Is there anything I can do?
Doctor: You can give up drinking and smoking, go walking hours each day, move to Timaru, and marry an economist.
Patient: And this will help me live longer?
Doctor: No, but it will feel like it.

Before denigrating a natural diet, it should be given a fair shake. Try this in the evening: low fat Trisuits, blue stilton and Gray Goose on the rocks. Just a few additives, but high in fiber and calcium and very soothing. Best while accompanied by a good read.

Totally off-topic:

McKinneyTexas - what are the good schools in McKinney? I'm probably moving your way. Thanks!

anonymouse: Yes.. I guess I'm not well known in this blog. I just noticed the one sided attack /commentary on Kevin Trudeau. This of course got my attention. Generally I try to stay out of this type of subject, but I couldn't let this one go undefended.

One sided arguments need more attention sometimes.

Apple cider vinegar works for me. It's pretty strong, but it works.

Colon cleansing is politically incorrect to talk about, but it works. It cleans out the garbage can of the body. I noticed instant results on my health when I've done it over the last several years. Instant results meaning that my head clears up, and I don't feel as sluggish.

Cleaning out as much toxins in the body is a great thing.

As I'm thinking about it, one of Kevin Trudeaus claims is that naturopathy can help/cure cancer.

Kevin Trudeau's claim is that cancer cells cannot be supported, and will not grow if your body is more alkaline. Cancer cells enjoy an acid based body.

I found that interesting. I immediately had to check if I was acid or alkaline based. I was more alkaline.

Do any of the chemists here have opinions , thoughts on that claim?

Monty-

Exactly dow did you determine that your "body" was "alkaline based"? What does that even mean? Blood has a very narrow pH range that is healthy. The protoplasm inside cells have slightly different pH. Digestive juices are very acidic. What do you measure? What kind of doctor informed you that you were "alkaline based"?? If you really want to know, why don't you take a biochemistry course instead of sounding like a new-age fool on this blog? Or are all the colleges in this big conspiracy too?

What you're getting from monty loree and Kevin Trudeau is Scientology moonbattery and tomfoolery. Not to mention skullduggery.

I truly wish some lawyers would sue quacks like Trudeau for $250 mil when someone dies after reading their book.

Lab Rat: wow, you have strong opinions on this.

I googled "check PH levels" and came up with this site. I am not affiliated with this site. I did use the product illustrated.

PH Test Kit

Hmmm... It's a bonafide product that's being sold in the market place.

It's an alkaline, acid, litmus paper test.

Does your toothpaste have baking soda in it? If it does, that's probably how you ended up with alkaline saliva.

The easiest way to eat healthy when you have no time in the evening is to cook on weekends and freeze for the week. Crockpots are another great invention. I'd submit that if you have time for colonics, you probably have time to cook. I'd also suggest that a 12 hour workday is not a viable lifestyle in the long term. If you need to do it occasionally when work is busy or when money is tight, that's one thing, but if you are doing it constantly, that is taking a huge toll on your health. Perhaps financial or career planning is in order.

shell: that's not a good answer.. try the litmus paper test, with out toothpaste first thing in the morning... are you alkaline or acid. Do you know? Have you checked?

Yes.. 12 hour days are not the best.. everyone has flaws , I don't mind admitting mine.

PROVE ALL THINGS

Monty-
Yes indeed I do have a stong opinion on this. I am frustrated with having to defend reason and the scientific method against a never-ending stream of sadly ignorant people and the con-artists preying on them. This often involves using some "scientific" device (like pH paper, or an ohmmeter to measure skin resistance, etc), and deriving all sorts of nonsense for the results.

QuackWatch.org (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/reams.html) has a good writeup on this:
"Acid-base status is commonly measured at hospital admission for many diseases, but it is extremely unusual to find acidosis or alkalosis of the blood or extracellular fluid in the early stages of any major disease except kidney disease. Moreover, no food is acidic or alkaline enough in a mixed diet to produce long-lasting changes in the body's acid-base balance."

I would have expected something much more profitable than science-fair grde pH paper for quacks selling this lie - why not micro pH probes that one can insert directly into a vein? Why not measure the pH inside your cells using NMR of phosphorus?

And most importantly, where are the double-blind studies that support ANY of this crap about pH?

Fresh Vegetables aren't going to help Chernobyl victims. Fresh vegetables aren't going to cure HIV victims. Fresh vegetables aren't going to cure SARS or the new bird flu

Fresh vegetables aren't going to cure anything, at all, ever, aside from starvation and vitamin deficiency. Fresh vegetables are a preventative, nothing more.

I'm also amused at your attempt to draw a distinction between "corporations" and "farmers". Most of the fresh vegetables in the United States are grown by a handful of large corporations. What's even more amusing is that you try to claim that drug companies work to keep people from eating fresh vegetables. In reality it is the farmers themselves who do that -- by lobbying the government for price supports, import restrictions, and limits on production they keep the supply of fresh vegetables artifically low and the price artificially high.

Lab Rat:

Here's a doctor who's shouting out against the drug industry. http://www.mercola.com/

Is your www.quackwatch.org certified and blessed by the FDA? It's run by a doctor, I see. Is this doctor making money from this website?

RE: your double blind argument. While I agree that double blind experiments are an excellent part of the verification process, one cannot double blind test everything.

Examples:
Can the average person double blind test the water they drink, or the food they eat. No.. they have to trust the system.

How many things can the average person double blind test?

I'll repeat again. It's amazing to me that when I started doing the things that Kevin Trudeau explains in his material, BEFORE I ran into his material, my health started to get better. I found results, by feeling better, before I even learned that he was "hocking his stuff"

To be fair, I remember Kevin Trudeau from many years ago when he was a Memory Master TV infomercial person. I had lost track of him since that time. When I heard that he was now selling health products, I was skeptical myself. How do you go from Memory products to health products.

My wife ordered Kevin Trudeau's stuff, unbeknownst to myself. When it arrived I started looking at it out of sheer curiousity.

I was surprised to read that he was talking about things that I had been reading and practicing for seven years.

So, I'm not coming blindly and infatuatedly into this discussion. I have proven what I'm talking about. I still think of Kevin Trudeau as a Memory Master / naturopath salesman. Somehow the product he is selling now, works for me, and even worked for me before I knew about him. That's the only double blind test.

I recommend that people reseach information for themselves. Talk to both doctors and naturopath practitioners. Read what other people are saying on the internet.

This discussion has brought out many good examples and points. There are obviously experts that are discussing this topic here on jane galt's blog. This is pretty healthy conversation.

We could sit here and discuss this topic for days. It's probably worth it to do so. I can't allocate any more time to this particular post.

Ultimately Henri Fondula is right. What ever your health method, you're going to live for a certain amount of years and then you're going to die. Cheers

I wonder if monty works for Trudeau? That last post reads like an infomercial.

I was skeptical about Trudeau the moment I heard about him, just because I think anyone who talks about "they" should be wearing a tinfoil hat. But my wife bought the book and swears by it. She had a reflux problem that was cleared right up by apple cider vinegar.

Regarding the comments above about pH, like "Does your toothpaste have baking soda in it? If it does, that's probably how you ended up with alkaline saliva": the pH test my wife uses involves the urine. Hers is alkaline, mine is acidic, so we'll see if I get cancer and she doesn't.

monty loree--"Can you comment about the lazy convenience driven society we live in?"

Sure!

I think it's it's awesome.

I think it beats the living hell out of subsistance farming, worrying about starvation, endless physical labor, and living one's entire life out within about a 5-mile radius.

That I have to put some thought into what I eat and go to the gym to make up for the fact that I spend my days divided between desk and a lab bench is a pretty decent tradeoff.

Klug,

My only question is: Should fat people get the offset of punitive taxation on the presumably more sexually active physically fit population? I mean the healthcare costs associated with higher incidence of STDs alone might well justify it.

Hers is alkaline, mine is acidic, so we'll see if I get cancer and she doesn't.

You mean...urine, as in the stuff your body uses to expel urea, a.k.a. uric acid?

I'm not a doctor, but the first thing that would come to mind if your wife's urine is alkalkine is that she may be excreting a lot of calcium. Offhand, I would guess that this could be normal based on gender, diet, vitamin supplements, prescription drugs, or some combination thereof; OR abnormal, signaling a possible present or future medical condition. Know what kidney and bladder stones are? I don't, but I'm told they are very painful.

Rex-

Could you please define alkaline and acidic as per you and your wife's test results? What pH exactly? What was the resolution of the pH paper or probe that you used?

anony-mouse-

Urea is NOT uric acid. Please consult your Meck Index.

...everyone buys a Meck Index at the university bookstore their first semester of freshman year, right....?

anony-mouse :

Good points besides the uric acid vs. urea bit. You seem more educated than most. Heh...buy a Merck Index...they could use the money, and it is the Websters Dictionary of chemistry (OK, Derek, not quite, but good enough for laypersons).

Ya know, Bill, theoretically speaking, I don't think so. I'm guessing that the population of sexually-inactive fat people is smaller than you think. But who knows?

Ugh.. that is "Merck Index"... my "R" key is sticking...

And for what it is worth, I am a published biochemist.

Klug-

It is worse than that - sexually active fat people tend to be sexually active with OTHER fat people...more bimass squared!

Which reminds me of a totally-un-PC notion I have had: If releasing more CO2 is bad, we should burry more carbon! Burry those newspapers and plastic bags, don't recycle or burn them! Get them out of the CO2 cycle!

OK, sarcastic...but where is reason? An orphaned child wimpering in the shadow of most public debate...

"...everyone buys a Me[r]ck Index at the university bookstore their first semester of freshman year, right....? -- Lab Rat

Sure. I know all the business majors did. Just having a Merck Index in plain view meant no dates for at least a month! It sure helped the GPA and helped you get into grad school.

To do my small part of debunking Trudeau, I'd like to lay to rest the cider vinegar nonsense. Acids are not all the same. The stomach is acidic due to the presence of hydrochloric acid, a strong acid with a pKa (acid dissocation constant) of approximately 0. The pKa of acetic acid (vinegar) is 4.95, i.e., 5 pH units higher than that of hydrochloric acid. That means that acetic acid is 100,000 times (five log units; pH values are logarithms) weaker as an acid than hydrochloric. Put another way, at pH 2 approximately 0.1% of acetic acid has given up its proton, i.e, acted as an acid. Only when the pH approaches 5 (the pKa) does any significant fraction of acetic acid act as an acid.

So drinking a small amount of vinegar (i.e., a few cc's of ca. 5% acetic acid) is no more going to render the stomach more acidic than blowing on a truck as it passes by will help it to accelerate. Anecdotal tales to the contrary should be filed under "P", for "placebo effect."

I was curious, so I looked it up. Here's the Merck Manual (1999) on measuring your pee's pH.

"Urinary pH is measured by a dipstick impregnated with various dyes that change color when the pH is 5 to 9. Although this test is done routinely, it does not identify or exclude patients with urinary system disease. However, it often helps identify various crystals that may be found in urine on microscopy. Testing of urine with a pH meter is critical in diagnosing the distal type of renal tubular acidosis, which is suggested by a urine pH > 5.5 after an acid load. The urinary pH in patients with other types of renal disease usually varies relatively normally, although the capacity to excrete titratable acid and ammonia may be reduced."

"Rex-

Could you please define alkaline and acidic as per you and your wife's test results? What pH exactly? What was the resolution of the pH paper or probe that you used?"

It's paper; you dip it in the urine or hold it in the stream. It measures from 4.5 to 7.5, with colors shown for each 0.5 of change. Mine was 5.5; I think hers was 6.5. The writing on the box the paper comes in says that you want to be between 6.5 and 7.5.

Measuring the pH of your urine tells you only about the pH inside your bladder (which tells you something about your kidneys.) It doesn't tell you about the pH in the rest of your body.

What people should realize is that the body is made up of dozens, hundreds, thousands, even billions of separate compartments (that last one holds if you want to get down to the cellular level.) All of them are separated by membranes, which regulate the balance of ions on either side. That determines the local pH, among other things.

And that's why talking about the pH of the whole body is nonsense. In the more homogeneous parts of the body, like the bloodstream, pH is tightly regulated. In the compartments, it's regulated at different levels and can vary more, and that includes different regions inside the individual cells.

Measuring your urine or saliva pH and extrapolating to your whole physiology is like touching your head and deciding that you're completely stuffed with hair. I go on about this in more detail here.

By the way, Rex Little is not me.

Derek Lowe also has a nice sinker, and a cheatin' heart.

What Monty says seems completely unfounded to me, a University physician. Yeast infections of the blood stream do occur in desperately ill patients, but they can't be cured by diets and colonic enemas. We physicians were very interested in cleansing the colon in the 19th century. Many physicians thought that epilepsy was caused by "auto-intoxication" with colonic wastes. If epilepsy did not respond to enemas and purgatives, some patients had their colon surgically removed- a big operation with a 50% death rate in 1900. The last colectomies for epilepsy in the US were done in 1926. It wasn't chiropractors who did this, it was orthodox physicians at the Mayo Clinic, Mass General Hospital and Johns Hopkins. Medical progress is slow and there are many false starts and false hopes.
Any human medical advisor can be wrong. I would put much more faith in Quackwatch than Dr. Mercola, whom I've come across, but either can be mistaken. Being human, physicians are easily seduced by the latest fad, and some are oriented only by a desire to make money. I've worked in both the US and Britain. One handle on where conventional medical wisdom may be wrong is to compare the US with France and Germany (not UK- in law & medicine we are too close to the English system). In many areas, for example, autism, there are big differences. US patients with autism are often treated with vitamins, drugs and special diets. There's very little of that in Europe and much ridicule of American physicians and their obsession with mercury. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

Ways to make money as an Altie:
1. Pick out a rather innocent, yet ubiquitous microorganism, or better yet, make up something scary sounding like Invasicoccus necroplanus.
2. Compile a list of as many common signs and symptoms as possible. Especially things like chronic pain, fatigue, headaches, etc.
3. Advertise on TV and the Internet about your exciting new solution to these signs and symptoms.
4. Attribute all patient's ills to a festering Invasicoccus infection. Advise them to get a rather expensive blood test to diagnose it. Warn them that Invasicocccus can progress to septic shock and death within minutes if not treated.
5. Contact the patient about their positive blood test, which fortunately shows an infection in its early stages.
6. Prescribe a rather expensive combination of herbal formulations that have been rumored to have antibiotic properties. Emphasize that your treatment is "all natural" and indoctrinate your patients on the perils of toxins pushed by the pharmaceutical industry.
7. Smile as your patients have a temporary placebo response to your pricey concoction. Show appropriate concern when they return with the same symptoms two months later.
8. Earnestly order another expensive blood test. Advise your patient that although the special herbal formulation has prevented the progression of the Invasicoccus infection, it hasn't yet cured it. Perhaps the super jumbo formulation of herbs will do the trick?
9. Repeat stages 7 and 8 until patient runs out of money.
10. Instantly smear critics with ad hominem attacks. Accuse them of molesting goats. Besides, much like the Queen of the Space Unicorns, your detractors can't prove that Invasicoccus doesn't exist.
11. Watch the money roll in.

12. Kill people.
13. Get caught, go to jail. Or not.

Perhaps there's no point continuing with the apple cider vinegar conspiracy theory, but one problem I noticed with it is the idea that antacid makers such as Tums are hiding a true, natural cure in order to get people to buy their high-priced chemicals. Antacids aren't patented, and they're pretty low cost. If there's a low cost alternative that's actually more effective for large numbers of people, why isn't some company using it to capture huge market share? This 'conspiracy' just isn't credible.

My guess would be that many of the recommendations in Kevin Trudeau's book are probably worth trying, and the book may help some people. However, many other recommendations are probably a waste of money, and some may be dangerous. All of the conspiracy theories are probably nonsense, meant to boost sales.

Keven Trudeau is a genius. ABSOLUTE GENIUS! Not because he's figured out an amazing cure for cancer that will wash all your ills away within 90 days. Not because he has the cure for herpes (he fails to mention it's not genital herpes that he's referring to).

It's because he's managed to dupe millions upon millions of people to buy his crap over and over and over and over again. Credit Card fraud? Nailed. Larceny? Nailed. False advertising? Nailed. Misrepresentation? Nailed. This guy's been banned from infomercials in the united states (except for books or audio media) and practically THROWN out of Australia for his ludicrous claims.

You may know him from his revolutionary breakthrough anti-aging cream... Firmalift. You know... the one that cost him MILLIONS in settlements because he's a fraud. Or his Coral Calcium marketting strategy where he claimed he could cure cancer within days. Riiiiiiiiight.

But still, he plugs on and, of course, there are millions of sad, pathetic and idiotic people out there buying it up as fast as they can. That guy can sell ice to an eskimo I tell ya. He's my hero.

Even if he's a lying ex-con duping millions of people world wide with empty promises.

Just because you roughly 65% of your books recipe context are quotations from already established cures/remedies which anyone can get from a casual search of their library let alone the internet... doesn't validate the other 35% which comprise solely of your own deluded false claims with no legitimate backing, research or validity in the slightest.

If you bought the book or believe Trudeau is a good honest man and that his "cures" work (the ones he made up and not the ones you can get out of a Farmers Almanac if you wanted to)... then you're a grade A retard that should not breed. Save the world from your idiocy. Don't have kids.

I have read a lot of what has been written here. The bottom line is that almost everything we eat and drink has had chemicals added to it or sprayed on it at some point before we comsume it. Do you really believe that our bodies were made to have unnatual chemicals put into or on them. I am a single mother who is ADHD and my children are ADHD, one hyper and the other can't focus and we eat a lot of fast foods and anything that is easy and quick. We take medicine to help with this problem. We take motrin and other modern drugs. For the people who work for the drug companies - I believe that most of the people who "work" and "try" to find a cure for things really do want to help, but these same people would be surprised to find how many things have been shelved through the years because it was not profitable by the big guys upstairs and the government. Our wonderful government, who cares so much for its citizens. I'll stop with that. I believe there must be a happy medium. We cannot continue to put chemicals and unnatural things into our bodies and not expect something to happen. We all know that antibiotics kill the good along with the bad bacteria. Many pediatricans have told parents of children (especially little girls) to give them yogart with active yeast when they have to take medication because they can get infections. All people should do this. What does that tell you?

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