October 23, 2006
From the desk of Jane Galt:Inside looking out
So I'm in London for a project, the nature of which will be revealed shortly. And I'm jet-lagged. I took all my normal precautions: caught the red-eye, with a little something to help me sleep, and went straight to work from the plane. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of reading in my hotel room before dinner. Which then, of course, didn't happen, because I fell asleep around 6:30 and woke at 11, and now I have a circadian rhythm about like . . . the rhythm of the First Methodist Ladies Gospel and Blues Choir. Housekeeping thinks I'm a riot.
Yes, there I was, at 2 am this morning, wide awake, and knowing I had to go to work at eight. I had finished my new Dick Francis novel. (Sadly, he is not what he once was, but not enough unlike he once was to actually put me to sleep.) I had plowed through Homage to Catalonia for the second time. What else can one do at such an hour, when the bars are closed, the hotel internet connection costs £20 a day, and one's insomniac friends are all on the other side of the Atlantic? I watched Sky News, Britain's answer to CNN.
Watching Sky News is weird, because half the news is about America, and half of that is wrong. I mean, not factually wrong, but with a take on things that seems very strange to an American. For example, there was a very long piece on the "rising backlash" against George Bush on global warming. I care about global warming about as much as any quasi-libertarian, ever, I try to live a green(ish) lifestyle, and I follow the issue pretty closely. I had not noticed any rising backlash against anything except the rising gas prices preventing some Americans from taking long trips in their SUVs. Source of this "backlash"? Cities (and California) passing their own global warming ordinances.
This makes perfect sense from a British perspective, where about the only thing local councils are allowed to control is grotty public housing. But overlaying that worldview onto America has very strange results. Local governments can pass ordinances against global warming whenever they want; they can outlaw coveting your neighbour's wife, too, for all the good it will do. But in doing so, they don't strike a blow against the federal government; they are just making themselves part of the grand (classical) liberal experiment that is supposed to flower under federalism.
There was also a lot of talk about how all the extra American troops killed in Iraq will probably make Americans determined to bring the troops home. This is, indeed, what happens in Britain every time one of their soldiers is killed, but personally I hear a lot more complaints about the expense of the war, or the dead Iraqi civilians, than I do about dead American troops. Americans expected to lose soldiers in the war. What they didn't expect was to spend hundreds of billions of dollars igniting a low level (or, if you believe the Lancet, fast-and-furious) civil war.
So for a few moments I had the answer to Robert Burns' prayer: "Oh wad some power the giftie gie us to see oursels as others see us!" But while it was disconcerting, I don't feel like I've been freed "frae monie a blunder . . . An' foolish notion." Maybe tomorrow I'll take in some British actors doing bad impersonations of Americans.
Posted by Jane Galt at October 23, 2006 11:18 AM | TrackBack | Technorati inbound links"); ?>Living in Europe for many years, I found the amusing thing is that Europeans in general, and Brits in particular, consider themselves highly knowledgeable about America. (They are, of course, relative to the converse, but are not in absolute terms.)
Political perspectives are notorious for travelling poorly, but some of the more illuminating incidents are more prosaic.
My favorite story: someone asking, in all seriousness, how an upcoming national election would be affected if it rained that day. (The assumption being that poorer people, lacking transportation, would be less likely to venture out to vote.)
As if it could rain over the entire United States on a given day!
My second favorite: the guy who proposed to fly into one major city early in the morning, and drive to another for a lunch meeting, not realizing that the two cities are almost 1000 miles apart.
Posted by: Occam's Beard on October 23, 2006 12:50 PMBritishers doing American accents always amuses me. Though all of the guys they had on "The Wire" were pretty good.
Posted by: Patrick on October 23, 2006 12:52 PM"... but not enough unlike he once was"
I have to admit, it took a few readings of that passage before its meaning dawned on me.
Posted by: Peter on October 23, 2006 1:43 PMWait a minute: isn't Sky News a Murdoch product? And isn't he supposed to be a CIA plant?
Posted by: Klug on October 23, 2006 1:48 PMThis is the nation that gave us the Guardian and its brilliant scheme (scroll down) to write to voters in Ohio and urge them to vote for Kerry. One of the writers apparently compared the invasion of Iraq with shooting a burglar who breaks into your house at night, thinking this would clearly demonstrate to Americans the horrifying criminality of the invasion.
Back in reality, my left-wing anti-Bush anti-war environmenalist aunt recently asked me for advice on which handgun to buy so that she could...shoot burglars who break in at night.
But my favorite story of foreigners was of the German I knew who wanted to visit Texas to have a real experience with Anglo-American culture.
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 23, 2006 1:55 PMHey, Rob:
What would you tell a German guy to do to experience American culture? I'm kinda asking a serious question...
I'd suggest 3 things:
1. Drive parallel to (but not on) I-80 from Philadelphia to Salt Lake City.
2. Go to the Sisters Rodeo in Sisters, Oregon.
3. Go to a "town meeting" with a Congressman in a swing district with a hostile crowd.
I get much the same experience listening to the BBC on satellite radio.
Posted by: Ben Fulton on October 23, 2006 2:28 PMNo offence, but I let my 15 year subscription to the Economist lapse a few years ago when the so-called American Correspondent demonstrated an appaling lack of knowledge about America!
The English are extraordinarily insular despite holidays to Florida and other beach resorts. They also pretend to be much more sharklike than the 'have a nice day' Americans. I make some good consulting money flying into the UK, telling them 'are you all insane' when the Englishmen fail to ask some tough questions of suppliers or business associates. The old imperial can-do spirit is sorely missed. (The best selling book 'The Dangerous Book for Boys' attempts to rekindle some of this)
Posted by: Dave Moelling on October 23, 2006 3:03 PM"...with a little something to help me sleep."
Was the first and major mistake.
You should skip it on the return and see if you don't acclimate all the much quicker.
Posted by: Mark E Hoffer on October 23, 2006 3:05 PMKlug,
I don't have a good answer to your question. The flip answer is "go to your local cinema" since most of their movies are dubbed Hollywood garbage. Or "turn on the TV" since you can get dubbed McGyver once a week (really, I'm not making that up) and US videos on MTV nonstop.
The "drive parellel" idea is not bad, but if you never make it to San Fran, you're missing out, aren't you? Besides, I've done similar drives a bunch of times and the food is terrible.
What I loved was the pairing of Texas with Anglo. Not that there aren't plenty of light-skinned English-speaking Texans...but wouldn't he be better of in, say, New England if he's after some sturdy Calvinist meatloaf and potatoes?
I'm sure there are decent pubs in Portland, but if you want to find "Irish-American culture" you'd be better off in Boston.
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 23, 2006 3:13 PMAnd of course there's the irony that the white population of Texas is more of German than of Anglo descent.
Posted by: Kevin Watkins on October 23, 2006 3:19 PMLiving in Europe for many years, I found the amusing thing is that Europeans in general, and Brits in particular, consider themselves highly knowledgeable about America.
Alas, this is very prevalent across the world. A large number of foreigners across the world are convinced they are very knowledgeable about America. Every time I travel overseas, the locals tell me all about America, despite the fact that they have never lived there. And most of what they know about America varies from shallow to misleading to downright wrong.
The converse is partially true - many Americans are quite ignorant about the rest of the world but are not afraid to admit that they are ignorant and ask elementary questions. This, unfortunately, is interpreted to reveal the stupidity and ignorance of Americans, instead of the honesty that it actually is.
Posted by: Kevin P. on October 23, 2006 3:25 PMIn a similiar vein, during the early '80's, a group of French engineers wereworking on a project in southern Ohio, near the WVa and Ky borders. They were pooling their money to rent a car for a weekend jaunt. I asked where they were planning to visit. It was the Grand Canyon.
Posted by: MikeinAppalachia on October 23, 2006 3:52 PMI spent a week in Switzerland in '96. Most people thought I was British. (I grew up in N. PA and S. NY, have lived in Ohio, Mississippi, Maryland and Georgia and my father is an English teacher who did not let us speak anything other than proper English at home). The owner of the company I was there to inspect had flawless english - until we wandered away from engineering. Then he was completely lost.
I tried explaining welfare to him (it came up in the course of the conversation.) He was ready to close the company and move to the States to get on welfare - because then he could devote all his time to reseach and not have to worry about making a living, or feeding his family. After I told him about the restrictions (First, get a divorce, second go live in a high violent crime zone...third, someone who barely graduated form high school will tell you how to improve your life...) he decided to stay home and run his company.
He also had the perspective problem. The company I was working for is in MD. He wanted to come there, then drive to Chicago to visit his wife's relatives. I told him how far and long away it was. He still came, but he flew to Chicago.
Needless to say, I did no better while I was there.
Posted by: Dan on October 23, 2006 4:13 PMI had a fresh-out-of-highschool coworker who was happy to inform me how ignorant Americans were, but didn't realize that "New York, New York" wasn't a typo and thought the Bahamas were part of the US.
Posted by: Mrs. L on October 23, 2006 4:25 PMWhen Carter shuffled his cabinet, the Austrian papers reported that the American government had fallen. Somewhat alarming for my american friends who were visiting there, until they managed to figure out what really happened.
Posted by: senex on October 23, 2006 5:05 PMMy favorite myopia with the Brits vis-à-vis America is their insistence on service; not service as Americans would know it (speed, efficiency, politesse), mind you, but as in "we know the best way." I can't count the number of times -- from food to transport -- where something I did myself in the US was simply "done" (alas, usually to bad -- or at least vastly unexpected effect) in the UK. This attitude seems to have rubbed off on their Canadian cousins too.
Want to really freak out a visiting Brit? Make them pump their own gas, use a kiosk at a market or airport, and -- for the capper -- doctor up their own coffee at Starbucks (or wherever). Guaranteed bewilderment.
OK, my obligatory story.
When we were living in London a few years ago, I caught a BBC interview with someone like the head of Africa Development for USAID (or maybe more senior).
The interview was about a fairly plausible effort that the Bush administration was announcing, perhaps around combating AIDS. The interviewer asked, "But isn't the Bush administration really just doing this to look good for the upcomming election?" The woman she was interviewing actually laughed out loud.
The idea that the US election is at all swayed by African development policy is funny, and the idea that Bush could pick up any votes from the camp that cared about that is even funnier.
Posted by: Andrea Gallagher on October 23, 2006 5:13 PMMark Steyn's website doesn't seem to be searchable (that I could discover) but a web search found the one passage from his review of EuroTrip that I wanted to quote:
One thing I'm surer and surer of since September 11th is that America and Europe know next to nothing about each other. Every Monday I get a big pile of London Sunday papers full of lame features professing to have the inside track on the latest trends in America, and it's all, as the Speccie's esteemed editor would say, complete bollocks. The one saving grace of the American media is that they can't be bothered to reciprocate: a four-decade old joke about the alleged French obsession with mime will do for at least another four or five decades, by which time the Fifth Republic will be the First Islamic Republic of France and the Yanks may have to come up with a new gag. Eurotrip, its scenes of Paris, Berlin and Rome all filmed on the cheap in Prague, somehow captures the state of the Atlantic alliance more accurately than any in-depth analysis.
Posted by: JSinger on October 23, 2006 5:20 PMMegan,
"I hear a lot more complaints about the expense of the war, or the dead Iraqi civilians, than I do about dead American troops. Americans expected to lose soldiers in the war. What they didn't expect was to spend hundreds of billions of dollars igniting a low level (or, if you believe the Lancet, fast-and-furious) civil war."
Perhaps you hang out with a lot of yuppie individualistic capitalist hangers on whose main focus is money.
Patriotic middle America is probably feeling those casualties more than you.
On the other hand, Americans and the American military leadership have always been relatively casualty averse, despite all the tough talk.
Posted by: chew2 on October 23, 2006 7:50 PMchew2,
"Perhaps you hang out with a lot of yuppie individualistic capitalist hangers on whose main focus is money."
There's no "perhaps" about it.
The sad irony of it is that they only think they're "capitalists", let alone "individualistic".
Posted by: Mark E Hoffer on October 23, 2006 8:05 PMAll I know about the European understanding of the United States is that as recently as the early 1970s family members who travelled there inevitably had the subject of gangsters with Tommy guns come up when they mentioned coming from Chicago.
I can, however, offer sympathy on the time phase problem. No jet travel involved, just a switch from a late night shift to days. Right now I'm ready to go to bed, but come 11:00 PM I'm suddenly going to be wide awake.
Posted by: triticale on October 23, 2006 9:10 PMPatriotic middle America is probably feeling those casualties more than you.
Highly doubtful, given how tiny the American body count is at this point. What turned middle America against the war is that it is taking a long time, and a LOT of money, and producing no apparent results. Three thousand fatalities for a three-year war doesn't sound like a lot. Hundreds of billions of dollars does.
Posted by: Dan on October 23, 2006 9:46 PMDan,
Tiny body count, billions of dollars?
Where I live, I see a lot of yellow ribbons. Americans empathize with there own. Each one of those deaths and all those soldiers who have to return to Iraq again and again are magnified in the eyes of those Americans. Upper middle class people can be objective about the admittedly very small number of deaths in absolute terms. Not regular Americans who were shocked by only 26 dead soldiers in Somalia.
Granted that lack of any forseeable progress also magnifies those deaths.
Billions of dollars? Sure a little bit for those who are feeling the pinch, but we live in a Republican borrow and spend free lunch economy.
Posted by: chew2 on October 23, 2006 11:09 PMMegan,
I didn't mean to bash you. I think you are good hearted, honest and smart commentator. But we are all products of our life experiences. The trick is to try to empathize with the other, and be aware of our own blinders. I can't say whether the other side of the pond has more misconceptions about us, than we do about them.
Posted by: chew2 on October 24, 2006 12:07 AMWhere I live, I see a lot of yellow ribbons
Yeah, me too. I have one on my car, in fact. You *do* realize those aren't for dead people, right?
Thus far, a fraction of one percent of the soldiers who've rotated through Iraq have gotten killed -- and, of course, the total of all the troops and their families is only a few percent of the American population to begin with. That's why the body count isn't having a significant impact on the American psyche -- nobody we know is dead. Three thousand strangers have died, over the course of three years in which we expected far higher casualties than that.
Posted by: Dan on October 24, 2006 3:00 AM"French engineers wereworking "
So, like, they turn into workers when the moon is full?
Occam,
One of the many wonderful quotes from Bill Bryson's Notes from a Small Island: "Americans think that 100 years is a long time, and the British think 100 miles is a long ways".
Chew: my family are the quintessential patriotic middle Americans, living in a small town between nowhere in particular. My mother is The Swing Voter: her vote has predicted every election I can remember. My sense from visiting them (and their neighbours) is that it is not the body count per se, but the horrible outcome, that is turning them against the war.
Posted by: Jane Galt on October 24, 2006 5:58 AMPosted by Twill00:
"French engineers wereworking "
So, like, they turn into workers when the moon is full?
Perhaps that explains the state of their economy ;-)
Posted by Jane Galt:
Chew: my family are the quintessential patriotic middle Americans, living in a small town between nowhere in particular. My mother is The Swing Voter: her vote has predicted every election I can remember. My sense from visiting them (and their neighbours) is that it is not the body count per se, but the horrible outcome, that is turning them against the war.
To quote the immortal essay The Jacksonian Tradition which should be recommended reading for anyone who wants to understand American foreign policy:
It is a bad thing to fight an unnecessary war, but it is inexcusable and dishonorable to lose one once it has begun.Posted by: Kevin P. on October 24, 2006 9:22 AM
Dan,
I have a video for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmsOIjzQ1V8
Posted by: Yellow Ribbons on October 24, 2006 10:49 AMAlas, this is very prevalent across the world. A large number of foreigners across the world are convinced they are very knowledgeable about America. Every time I travel overseas, the locals tell me all about America, despite the fact that they have never lived there. And most of what they know about America varies from shallow to misleading to downright wrong. The converse is partially true - many Americans are quite ignorant about the rest of the world but are not afraid to admit that they are ignorant and ask elementary questions. This, unfortunately, is interpreted to reveal the stupidity and ignorance of Americans, instead of the honesty that it actually is.
Here, here. Just once I would love for one of those journalists who runs a “why don’t Americans know more about other countries stories” to delve into what folks from other nations think they know about the United States and how much of it is accurate.
Thorley,
Wouldn't that segment also reveal how much those journalists think they know about the US, and how much of it is accurate?
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 24, 2006 11:11 AM'(The assumption being that poorer people, lacking transportation, would be less likely to venture out to vote.)'
The other thing about this is the incredible racism of Europeans and their weird perception of race relations in the US. I used to have a job where we hired programmers for an office in Ireland but it was done jointly between the office in Boston and the office in Dublin. We'd get CVs and all the Europeans (Irish and Germans) would comment on was the peoples appearance and ethnicity. 'We're not hiring any more Hindus and Africans were all idiots'. And then they'd get into peoples appearance. Then they'd talk about how when they would come to Boston and they'd talk about segregation in the US in ways that would make even liberal arts majors say 'Get a grip'. They'd ask about whether people were allowed in different parts of the city or in shops. It was truly weird.
It is a bad thing to fight an unnecessary war, but it is inexcusable and dishonorable to lose one once it has begun.
In other words, "when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do start digging faster".
Posted by: purple on October 24, 2006 12:30 PMKirk,
Thanks for the quote - it's perfect, and absolutely true.
Bandit,
Your comment is also apposite. When I was about to return to the US with my British bride, she wondered aloud about whether we'd need to get firearms to protect ourselves. ("Cover me, I'm going out for a newspaper!") Europeans generally seem to think all American cities are like Berlin in April 1945.
I assured her we wouldn't be living in an area where that was necessary.
Posted by: Occam's Beard on October 24, 2006 12:47 PMIn other words, "when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do start digging faster".
Uh...whatever lights your joint, buddy.
Posted by: anony-mouse on October 24, 2006 12:50 PMOn top of that, Thorley, I'd love to know how much foreign citizens know about their own country. In other words, if they had to take a version of the US citizenship test, how would they do?
Posted by: Klug on October 24, 2006 1:03 PMAmen to all this. My husband's French, and many, many of his friends & relatives have commented quite sharply about the scandalous state of race relations in the U.S. And yet in France ethnic minorities are virtually invisible in national politics.
The other day we had some Frenchies over to dinner and they were marvelling about how some French newscaster, who evidently is the first ethnic minority prime time news anchor there, was actually managing to do a decent job at it! Like, he could speak good French and everything.
Posted by: BerthaMinerva on October 24, 2006 1:43 PMSky News is almost right wing extreme compared to international CNN. In my frequent travels to Europe, I have been stunned by the level of animosity and disinformation propounded by that scurvy lot.
Posted by: SSG Pooh on October 24, 2006 1:44 PMMy sense of it is that Europeans tend to think they know more about the world than Americans because they know the rest of Europe better than Americans do. Until only recently world history was the history of Europe + North America. What Europeans fail to grasp is that America is a continent-wide nation. In effect, "The South", "The MidWest" and "New England" have roughly comparable interrelationships to one another as France, Britain, and Germany.
Posted by: Bill Dalasio on October 24, 2006 2:34 PMMegan,
I can certainly understand why the "horrible outcome" is turning your family against the war. I share that view and this may be the primary reason why most now think that the war was a mistake.
The burden of this war can be measured in dead and wounded soldiers and dollars spent. I am suggesting that those who value the dollars over the dead, do so more because of where they sit, not because of some conceit, if I may call it that, that we Americans "expect to lose soldiers in a war" and others, the Brits, don't.
Posted by: chew2 on October 24, 2006 2:42 PM
Uh...whatever lights your joint, buddy.
What are you talking about?
Posted by: purple on October 24, 2006 3:03 PMWhat a remarkably smug set of comments. Europeans display ignorance of the US? Well, there's a thing. Of course they do. The natives (whereever they are) always have a deeper understanding of their own society than the visitors (wherever they come from). Foolish natives know that they can always use their knowledge to make the visitors look like idiots. Wise natives realise that the perceptions of the outsider - skewed and distorted as they may be - can provide an insight and perspective which the native cannot easily grasp without help. The wisest (and luckiest) natives are those who have had the good fortune to live abroad (wherever that may be), not just because of the possibility of getting closer to somewhere different, but because of the vantage point it provides for looking back at home.
And anyone who thinks Americans or Europeans are better or worse at this than the other just needs to get out more. The accusations and the silly stories are themselves a sign of insularity - because for every European who thinks they will need an armed escort to leave the house in Peoria, I'll show you an American who is surprised at the absence of fog in London.
Posted by: marek on October 24, 2006 8:21 PMTwo of my favorite European facts:
1) America has 52 states (they like to count Puerto Rico and DC as states)
2) Indians aren't allowed to leave their reservations.
Marek, I think what most commenters are getting at is that many Europeans are so sure of their facts. I can't tell you how many heated debates I've had about "fact" #1.
Posted by: Jaime Roberto on October 24, 2006 8:53 PM"I'll show you an American who is surprised at the absence of fog in London."
Uhh....I though the presence of fog *was* the surprise.....for them at least.
Posted by: Prysorra on October 24, 2006 8:54 PMDon't miss the BBC's news re-caps at noon and 6 PM for Londoners (if memory serves those times are correct),
In London in early 2003, in the run-up to OIF, I once counted four different days in one week when George Galloway's newest pronouncements were featured at those times, but no later in the evening on those occasions.
And make sure you compare the BBC's UK production with the carefully produced "BBC America" upon your return. You'll marvel at the contrast!
Posted by: T. O'Connor on October 24, 2006 8:56 PMI just had an interesting lunch conversation with some Brits today. One of them's father had just been mugged back home while he was on the flight over. In the hospital. I was very surprised at the honest appraisal, and at the pessimism, for the future of the UK and Europe in general. I have known two of these men for years, and this is a new turn on their political outlook.
As for jet-lag, my prescription, fly in over night, do not go to your hotel room, and if you do, do not go near your bed before 7 or 8. And remember that there is a component of willpower in overcoming jet lag, at least the east bound kind. Don't expect it to be automatic.
As for watching English actors doing bad impressions of Americans, watch the 'documentary' "What if the oil runs out" on the Discovery Channel.
Posted by: moptop on October 24, 2006 9:05 PMMegan,
Skip the chemically induced fitful sleep. Go to Duane Reade and get the sleep mask made of black foam rubber and black cardboard. It has cut-outs where your eyes go, so nothing touches them. It's like being in a completely black room: you open your eyes and see perfect darkness. (Ignore the weird "relaxing" lotion that comes with it.) Wear that and listen to something soothing through a pair of noise-blocking/canceling headphones (I recommend Etymotics, under $100 at B&H) and you may rest quite nicely. Works for me.
Posted by: clazy on October 24, 2006 9:25 PMMeanwhile, Japan is sitting on the sidelines selling a bazillion dollars worth of cars and TVs to the Americans and Europeans when they take a break from bitch-slapping each other.
Fun facts about America from the Japanese:
-America does not have four seasons. Only Japan does.
-Americans eat bread and beef at every meal.
-Americans never eat rice.
-No American can use chopsticks.
-All Americans own a gun.
-One should not change planes in city like Chicago or Atlanta because they are too dangerous.
The Japanese have trouble with France, too.
http://www.ridingsun.com/posts/1161657103.shtml
When I was about to return to the US with my British bride, she wondered aloud about whether we'd need to get firearms to protect ourselves.
You missed an opportunity to stock up on guns, dude. "Yes, we'll need a Glock, a SIG, a couple rifles..." Now you'll have to wheedle permission out of her just to get your kicks.
Posted by: Ernst Blofeld on October 24, 2006 9:36 PMmarek:
What a remarkably smug set of comments. Europeans display ignorance of the US? Well, there's a thing. Of course they do.
As I pointed out, ignorance is universal. What isn't universal is the false perception of knowledge. For whatever reasons, including the sensational and skewed media coverage of the remaining superpower by the rest of the world, many people including Europeans sincerely believe that they are well informed about the United States, its government, its culture and its people.
Unfortunately, they aren't.
Wise natives realise that the perceptions of the outsider - skewed and distorted as they may be - can provide an insight and perspective which the native cannot easily grasp without help.When I was traveling abroad in Sept 2005, an intelligent and educated young lady asked me about why the US oppressed so many black people in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, and was it true that New Orleans was infested by black people?
I am not making this up.
I am not sure what insight and perspective this is supposed to give me, but I think that it told me more about her and her countrymen than about mine.
This is of course a sorry state of affairs, but I do not know what the solution is, short of mounting a large scale Soviet-style propaganda campaign to educate the world about the American nation. Our media establishment would ensure that this would not get off the ground.
In the meantime, I take foreign opinions (usually unsolicited) about the US with a generous helping of salt.
Posted by: Kevin P. on October 24, 2006 10:04 PMWhat a remarkably smug set of comments. Europeans display ignorance of the US? Well, there's a thing. Of course they do. The natives (whereever they are) always have a deeper understanding of their own society than the visitors (wherever they come from). -marek
In the above comments I see very little to make me think that the writers think that they are so terribly clever and the British so terribly thick.
In fact, quite the opposite is expressed:
The converse is partially true - many Americans are quite ignorant about the rest of the world but are not afraid to admit that they are ignorant and ask elementary questions. This, unfortunately, is interpreted to reveal the stupidity and ignorance of Americans, instead of the honesty that it actually is. -Kevin P.
Oh, fiddlesticks to you, marek, as my grandmother would say. I've had the good fortune to travel all over the world and chat with the natives and expats from all over in their languages (3 of them plus English, anyway--had to fake it in Prague and Madrid) and I've also lived in all 4 corners of the US and cris-crossed the country in my car. I don't claim to understand German or French or Texas politics (well, German more than French or Texas, since I lived through an election there), but they sure seem to be experts on the US. And that's why it's so much fun to mock them: I know full well I can't comment meaningfully on primary education in Berlin or police practices in Lyon, but my interlocutors abroad were full of advice for my native country, most of it based on gross misconceptions and exactly the sort of warped reporting mentioned here.
(Actually, I'd say the same thing for some more insular Americans who think that the country ends at the Hudson and starts up again in the Hollywood Hills)
Besides, would it really be that hard for Sky News to dig up a couple of expats and pay them a few bucks to read their copy and give comments? (I wonder the same thing whenever I read/watch news on a subject I understand, and I've even offered local TV and newspapers my services--free of charge--to prevent them from making utterly ridiculous errors when reporting on guns.)
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 24, 2006 10:13 PMSince this is "how I spent my [summer vacation]I was in the Army in 1965, stationed in Germany. I was sent on an assignment to a joint operations exercise with the Bundeswehr. One morning at breakfast, one of the German officers at the table asked me why Americans drove such big cars. I told him that we needed more comfort for the long drives as we thought very little of driving an hour to go to dinner or to a shopping cernter. That seemed to rattle them. Of course, I now consider 1965 Ameican cars a bit outsized, but perceptions change. -
Posted by: Stan on October 24, 2006 10:16 PMYou've probably heard the saying "Small town, small mind."
After living in Belgium and England for two years, I like to say "Small country, small mind."
Understandable. Most of the world has a tiny culture with a tiny language to know about. America is so big (not just in miles) that no American can really understand it all, let alone a foreigner. New Yorkers will never understand the people of Kaunakakai any more than they will really know the Dini, without living among each other for a while. How many people can recognize the words Kaunakakai and Dini, even. The problem is the US is made up of more than just those three groups, a lot more. In one state, California, the differences between Bakersfield culture and San Francisco culture and desert rat culuture and barrio culture and Compton culture and Cambria. This is despite the mobility of people raised in each of these places and moving to and from these places. To many of the people of Mojave, San Francisco people are freakish aliens (okay, this opinion is prevelant all over). I'm sure people from San Francisco think the people of Antelope Valley and Mojave are desert hicks despite the number of PhDs and rocket scientists (literally) living there.
So with the size, diversity, and breadth of American culture (not even including the gah-jillions of cultures and cultural influences from around the world) make it impossible for foreigners to understand Americans, just as it is difficult for us Americans (though not impossible) to really understand America.
Kalroy
Posted by: Kalroy on October 24, 2006 10:31 PMI have usually found that Europeans have a very accurate picture of life in the United States that they have gotten from TV and movies. We are all very attractive young people with lots of money from our jobs as lawyers, cops, movie stars and computer geniuses. We all drive expensive cars very fast and frequently get into gun fights, sometimes with ninja assassins. That is when we are not having great sex with beautiful women who we have just met.
Posted by: Mark in Texas on October 24, 2006 10:35 PMWhen I was backpacking in Greece in my 20's, very nice local started a conversation with me upon realizing I was American. The bus we were on passed a street vendor selling some small watermelons. He asked me if we had watermelons in America. I told him we did, but they must be a different variety, as American watermelons were much larger than the ones for sale on the street. He got a dissappointed look on his face and said "oh, that must be because of all the fertilizer American's use."
He was also surprised to find out that most Americans didn't own swimming pools in the backyard. "But where do you swim?", he asked incredulously.
Posted by: Mike on October 24, 2006 10:52 PMWell, supposedly Dick Francis's wife used to help him somewhat with his novels. She passed away 5 years ago, which is why he stopped writing until recently. Still, the guy is what, 87? Something like that. So it's unlikely he would be doing his best work, anyway.
Posted by: JeremyR on October 24, 2006 11:07 PMSo why not write up a quiz or, even better yet, a series of them to educate and demonstrate fluency in US culture. Heck, it'd be interesting to see the Germans, French, et al do one for their country too. Then we can all see how ignorant we all are and get over ourselves.
Posted by: TM Lutas on October 24, 2006 11:11 PM"We are all very attractive young people with lots of money from our jobs as lawyers, cops, movie stars and computer geniuses. We all drive expensive cars very fast and frequently get into gun fights, sometimes with ninja assassins. That is when we are not having great sex with beautiful women who we have just met."
It's that kind of gross exaggeration that drives me crazy - there's always some ridiculously witty banter _before_ we dive into the great sex.
Posted by: Ben on October 25, 2006 12:02 AMHmmmm.
We are all very attractive young people with lots of money from our jobs as lawyers, cops, movie stars and computer geniuses. We all drive expensive cars very fast and frequently get into gun fights, sometimes with ninja assassins. That is when we are not having great sex with beautiful women who we have just met.
What an amazingly concise description of my life.
:)
Posted by: ed on October 25, 2006 12:07 AMI have lived all over and am always surprised at what foreigners know about America. Usually wrong.
My wife is Thai and was visiting in Thailand in the 90's about the same time as some pictures of meteors hitting Saturn, I think it was. The Thai language newspapers, which have about the same relationship with facts as the New York Times, had somehow gotten this twisted around and were reporting that a meteor was going to hit the earth and everyone was going to die.
Some friends asked my wife about this and she told them, "Don't be ridiculous. The Americans would never let that happen." That was the end of the discussion because everyone, including my wife, knows that the Americans can do anything and certainly would not allow that to happen.
Mind you, these just a bunch of ordinary citizens, not the University educated elites, who read the same papers and know that the Americans would never allow that to happen, but would never actually admit it.
Posted by: John Dunshee on October 25, 2006 12:19 AMI visited relatives in Australia earlier this year, and was horrified at the ideas my cousin and his son had about culture, politics, and current events in the U.S.
When I questioned them, they said that they get all their information about America from the BBC and The Simpsons.
I love traveling in Europe. Before our first trip there, my wife told me to leave my baseball cap and sneakers home because of all the anti-American hostility- this was 1998, and I disregarded her advice. Nowadays, you'd probably want to leave those white tube-socks home!
We find Europeans to be remarkably friendly and curious about American culture. They despise George Bush and are incredulous anyone would vote for him. I patiently explain their view of the GOP and Bush are filtered through CNN, the BBC, the NYT, and USA Today- all political enemies of the Republican Party. There is no FOX News-type media to be found there, at least in English.
We've been to Spain, Portugal, Italy, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Great Britain, Germany, France, and Austria, and have never faced one incident of discrimination based on nationality.
I always try to speak the local language, but in places like Austria and Germany, I'm lost. I was speaking with a couple we met in Baden-Baden, Germany, and I started to speak with a Colonel Klink accent, thinking it would aid in their comprehension. My wife called me on it, but the German couple said it was much easier to understand me "ven I spoke like zis". Do you think they were just being polite?
Marek, I think what most commenters are getting at is that many Europeans are so sure of their facts.
Bingo -- every time an issue of politics or culture has come up on a couple of the internationally-populated message boards I frequented in times past, what was truly aggravating was the blinkered self-certainty of the international sect -- educated Western Europeans especially -- that they not only understood exactly how the US functions, but that they also perfectly understood the policy prescriptions that would fix these problems. Even thought it was clear after the first two or three sentences that they did not have an accurate grasp of either.
This was usually accompanied by a healthy dose of denouncing American arrogance for refusing to accept their views and advice as Revealed Truth.
Posted by: anony-mouse on October 25, 2006 4:22 AMSo why not write up a quiz or, even better yet, a series of them to educate and demonstrate fluency in US culture.
Good idea. You should get right on that.
Posted by: Dan on October 25, 2006 4:36 AMI've got to ask, why would asking a Brit to pump his own gas freak him out? After all, it's what he would do at 99.5% of British filling stations.
Everybody in Europe thinks they know everything about the US because 75% of the television they watch and 95% of the films are American, and they think they represent real life.
For example, I asked my Russian co-workers (at a major international law firm) what proportion of the US population they think is black - no one said less than 40%, some said 60%. When I told them the real figure they all just laughed and said I was wrong.
I read this thread with interest because I think I have as good a perspective on this as anyone: I'm an American who has lived in England for ten years, and although I do work in London I live in the suburbs where there are very few Americans. So I spend a great deal of time socializing with ordinary English people.
I generally agree with Jane's observations about television news shows: I don't watch them very often, and part of the reason I find tv news here annoying is because they frequently draw ignorant conclusions from their observations about the U.S.
But that's what talking heads do everywhere, I think. Normal people do indeed have misconceptions about the U.S. and occasionally draw the wrong conclusions about significant events in the U.S, but they don't assume that they know everything. People usually ask me out of genuine curiosity to explain things about the U.S. to them, and I cannot recall a single instance where someone argued that he understood the U.S. better than I. I definitely do *not* experience some sort of smug "we know everything about the U.S." attitude in England. So I disagree with most of the generalizations I've read here.
I think two generalizations are pretty safe:
1) People here are amazed at the scale of the U.S. They don't generally think about it, but when I bring it to their attention they usually find it very interesting and often reexamine their view of the U.S. through that lens.
2) No matter their political stripe, people here are anti-gun-ownership. Perhaps this is a London thing. They find the idea that people can own handguns to be bad to say the least, and the idea that ordinary citizens could carry handguns to be barbaric.
Want to really freak out a visiting Brit? Make them pump their own gas, use a kiosk at a market or airport, and -- for the capper -- doctor up their own coffee at Starbucks (or wherever). Guaranteed bewilderment.
Valjean,
I am not sure if you have ever visited Britain, since all petrol pumps in the stations that I have ever visited are self-service (and that is 20 years of driving), kiosks abound (though there ren't as many as in Japan, the King of countries for Kiosks, if you are thirsty), and you can doctor all you like in Starbucks.
However, if you have a different system of self-service such as gas pumps, then you will be guaranteed bewilderment for a few minutes whilst you work out how it is done. As happened to me in Florida.
Although on travel, I have always tended to note plenty of Old Commonwealth but rarely any Americans. There is less emphasis on that 'grand tour' thatyou from these islands, South Africa or the Antipodes.
Philip: I agree re Valjean's comments. I didn't mention them because they were so demonstrably silly that I thought he must be joking.
Posted by: DAW on October 25, 2006 10:13 AMBut that's what talking heads do everywhere, I think. Normal people do indeed have misconceptions about the U.S. and occasionally draw the wrong conclusions about significant events in the U.S, but they don't assume that they know everything. People usually ask me out of genuine curiosity to explain things about the U.S. to them, and I cannot recall a single instance where someone argued that he understood the U.S. better than I. I definitely do *not* experience some sort of smug "we know everything about the U.S." attitude in England. So I disagree with most of the generalizations I've read here.
I think this is a very excellent point. One of the reasons I’ve enjoyed reading Jonah Goldberg at NRO is that when discussing generalities about the opinions that “Europeans” have of Americans, one needs to distinguish between the opinions of European “intellectuals” and talking-heads (which are usually the opinions that we see in the media) from the average Briton, German, etc. on the street.
On a tangential topic, there something I’ve noticed about how the media reports the opinions that people in other countries have of the United States that whether they have a favorable opinion of the United States is often the opposite of what one would think based on the diplomatic relationships between our countries. For example when Russia was an enemy, the media would report about how Russians “love Americans and American culture” just as they do about Iran. But at the same token countries like Canada and many nations in Western Europe who have long-standing alliances and generally good relations with the US would have reports about how their citizens didn’t like the United States or our culture. Am I off-base or has anyone else noticed the same thing – not just about the attitudes of people in other countries but how the MSM reports it?
[i]After living in Belgium and England for two years, I like to say "Small country, small mind."
[/i]
Now let's turn that around, let me, a Belgian in MS, go outside at the Wal Mart parking lot and ask the first 20 people I see if they know where Belgium is. Let's make it more interesting, let's ask them if they know where England is.
Big Country, big ego, small mind.
I stupid questions from people all the time, like 'do people still like Hitler there?', 'do you guys have electricity over there?'. These comments came from a district manager of a big home improvement company, the other one from a guy with a lawyer degree. Not even the average Joe. Actually, I am planning a trip to go back home, and that same manager asked me why I flew instead of driving... 'nuff said.
Posted by: yesferro on October 25, 2006 11:01 AM" Fun facts about America from the Japanese:
.... All Americans own a gun. "
I had an amusing conversation with a German guy a few months ago, describing his first visit to America: He had gone to a store to buy some Beer, but they wouldn't sell it to him because it was a Sunday. But on the way out of the store, he noticed that they were selling guns!
So, his first impression of America was "that crazy country where you can buy guns in the supermarket, but not beer."
[ I'm guessing that the 'supermarket' was probably a Super-WalMart in Utah or Oklahoma, or some place like that.]
Canadians are convinced that there are 52 states as well, and will really argue the point with you. They think Alaska & Hawaii were 51 & 52. I've pretty much given up on this.
They also think african americans are 30-40% of the population. No amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. That is a little more understandable, considering the obsession with race in the US media. [The actual number is 12.9%, but that may be overstated a bit]
They also do not believe in the existence of health insurance in the US.
Posted by: mr.x on October 25, 2006 11:27 AMMikeInAppalachia,
I had the identical experience with a Swedish visitor. He was spending the week commuting into NYC where he had some business and I asked if there was anything particular he'd like to do for the weekend. Yuppers - rent a car and go see the Grand Canyon.
Another wanted to go to Boston until learning it was pretty much a six hour trip no matter how one travelled. The distances are beyond their comprehension.
I had visitors from Belgium who wondered why I didn't keep my trash cans in a locked storage bin 'cause they assumed hordes of homeless wandered around rummaging through trashcans.
Another Swedish visitor was surprised to find a nearby movie theater "out here in the countryside". I live in wall to wall suburbia where the only way you know you've gone from one town to another is the road sign saying hi or bye.
Other visitors, and this is probably the most common surprise I've heard European register, is the amount of "wildlife" and "nature". Northern Europeans are accustomed to populated areas being manicured and quite free of critters beyond rabbits and squirrels. Frequently seeing racoons, groundhogs, deer, and such seems to amaze them. They seem to have an idea that we gunloving, shoot sumpin' every day cowboys have plowed over every tree and gunned down every critter. The funny part of this is it is the Euros who've chopped down their trees and hunted down all their critters. The only way they see "nature" is in a park. Yet even in suburbia Americans live with some nearby "nature".
The idea of very localized government also seems to baffle them. The scale of weather systems is another thing. The idea that, for example, the weather that is flooding the Mississippi river basin is too far away to have any immediate impact on the east coast just seems to leave them blinking in disbelief.
They also seem to generally believe we are homogenized - that life in PA is different than life in NJ, or upstate NY very different than metro NYC is difficult or impossible to convince them of. They're pretty much still convinced we beat and lynch black people regularly - in the back of their minds they suspect we still run cotton plantations full of slaves somewhere.
I've had a fair bit of exposure to Europe and Europeans. I have always been amazed at the amount of their "news" they spend blathering about the US. The fact that they believe the products put out by "Hollywood" are an accurate reflection of "American Culture" (not to mention a deliberately planned, US government backed effort to "export American culture") is telling. They believe that soap operas and TV shows tell them something about how people actually live in the US rather than being a reflection of what people choose for entertainment. Is there a single American who actually believes that their neighbors live soap opera or TV show lives? Is there a single American who believes the British shows they see are an actual reflection of life in Merry Old England? I don't think so.
They just ain't nowhere near so sophisticated and wordly as they think they are. One thing I find amusing is when I get to see the "common folk" - the middle class working stiffs. The Swedes refer to them as "middle-Svensk". Those are some heavily pierced and tatooed, hard drinkin' and cussin' folks that would do the worst of 'murrican ruffians proud. To be completely honest I think the standard American redneck is a bit more polished, civilized and a whole lot easier and more fun to be around.
Euros have a deep need, and they wallow in the manifestations of it, to convince themselves that the US is terrible in every way. If they have systemic unemployment they'll crank up documentaries about US homelessness and find some Americans to interview about how their unemployment checks ran out. Problems with soccer hooligans and teen crime? Crank up the documentary about gangs in US cities. People complaining about the sluggishness of the national healthcare system? Crank up a news report about people in the US with no medical insurance. Small increase in the state pension? Find an old person in the US eating cat food in some dingy apartment.
People starting to grumble about how common burglary is? Do a news report about violent crime in America. Speaking of which, as far as I can tell it is completely common to have had one's home burglarized in much of Europe. In most any sizeable social gathering it will be a topic of conversation somewhere in crowd. Burglary is almost epidemic. That just flat out isn't the case for the vast majority of Americans. The Euros seem to view the fact that they've removed most of the violence from burglary by disarming the population and criminalizing self-defense as a badge of honor. Violence is the only taboo anymore. They'll go to any length to avoid it.
Thousands of old people die in a heatwave 'cause nobody cares? Fire up coverage of US hurricanes and tornados. They just loved the heck out of Katrina. I'd wager the average Euro believes thousands upon thousands of people perished and bodies still litter the streets. Belief in the idea that there was rampant murder and mayhem in the Superdome is probably far more common in Europe than in the US.
Some claim it is an envy thing. I think its just a need to feed a superiority complex.
Posted by: Knucklehead on October 25, 2006 11:33 AMI've noticed the European surprise at the presence of wild animals here, too. Having lived in Germany, I can understand it, because you really have to go out of your way to find something larger than a starling in some areas over there.
Another problem, which is part of the large country/less homogeneity than assumed ones, is that many Europeans seem to believe, after a visit to New York or Los Angeles, that they've seen a large part of the US and its life. It's certainly much more than nothing, but still. . .
I should note that this is probably a universal mistake. I remember once in Switzerland, when a Swiss farmer's wife near Fribourg asked me if I'd been to the country before, and I mentioend that I'd been to Zurich. "Zurich is nicht die Schweiz!" she assured me quickly, and I have to say that the same thing applies to New York and the US. Part of it, but not the whole.
Posted by: Derek Lowe on October 25, 2006 11:53 AMJaime Roberto,
I've had that identical "52 states" conversation with at least three different Euros. What astonished me was how insistent they were about it. Once upon a time I thought I was gently correcting an innocent mistake. Now that I know how hot they get about it I find it amusing. It is fascinating. Early on I had to sit with my wife and a US map and count the states. Then I had to prove the map was not an old one. These many years later I am not entirely sure she's convinced of 50 rather than 52.
Posted by: Knucklehead on October 25, 2006 12:02 PMThe European country that I've visited the most is the Netherlands, and I have to admit to being surprised not by just how much they thought they knew about the US, but how much US-related news they watch in general. Granted, the group I spent time with were PhD-holders who traveled in the US a great deal, but it was still eye-opening. Perhaps Knucklehead's comment about how the European media constantly reports negative American news explains it. Certainly, any "scandal" or negative US event gets wall-to-wall coverage there. Why else (to give a real example) would people living on the Netherlands-Germany border know greater detail than I did about the South Carolina confederate-flag-flying-on-state-house-grounds flap?
I did spend one delightful evening with some more blue-collar guys, who quizzed me about how much various cars cost (easy to answer thanks to the glut of commercials) and about what guns I had recently fired (at the time, a .22, a .357, and a 9mm). That discussion earned me the nickname of "the woman who knows her cars and guns", which is a pretty sweet moniker, when you think about it.
Posted by: Kimberly on October 25, 2006 12:10 PMJust out of curiosity what do you suppose would happen if a presidential candidate were, at a nationally televised debate or town hall meeting, asked to name all 50 States?
Posted by: Thorley Winston on October 25, 2006 12:10 PMPhilip, DAW,
Oh, I've visited the mother country all right -- about a dozen times -- and no, I'm not joking. Maybe it's a question of time and place. I don't use the petrol stations in London much (who drives?) as my business tends to be out in the country in the Manchester/Liverpool area, but I've honestly never filled up my car. Maybe the station owners size me up as a clueless wrong-side-driving Yank and take pity on me.
As for coffeehouses, I've had the experience at least twice of taking visiting Brits and Canadians to local places -- Starbucks and others -- and seeing them do double-takes when after asking for sugar they were told to help themselves. I tend to avoid Starbucks overseas, and very few of the places I've ever visited as alternatives ever had "self service" areas.
Varieties of experience, I suppose. I'm actually heartened to hear self-service has taken such firm root in the UK; I suppose I've been visiting the wrong places.
A British fighter pilot during WW II told of a time when an American bomber made a forced landing at his fighter strip.
He asked the tail gunner where they'd been. The gunner said they had a navigator to worry about such things.
"Wait," said the gunner, "What's that little country, next to France?"
Europeans might want Americans to remain ignorant of Europe, considering how we learn our geography.
Posted by: Richard Aubrey on October 25, 2006 12:44 PMI've lived 7 1/2 of the past 12 years in three different European countries. In my experience, most people-on-the-street are proud to show off what they know about the States, but are sometimes wildly inaccurate. Most often about distances. But generally, they are pleasantly open to polite correction. A few have a political point to make and usually succeed in showcasing their profound ignorance. I have started asking, "Oh, how long did you live in the US?" That shuts them up right away since most haven't even visited. The worst ignorance I've ever seen, though, came from a Canadian with a PhD who was afraid to visit Texas because he didn't want to be involved in a shoot out. I'd say my number one pet peeve is hypocritical Europeans opining on the pitiful state of US race-relations. I once had to pick my chin up off the floor after a French friend casually said, "Well, you know, I can't stand the [French immigrant]Arabs. They're all ignorant and dirty." No wonder they're burning 112 cars a day in France!
Posted by: jess on October 25, 2006 1:13 PMI'd say my number one pet peeve is hypocritical Europeans opining on the pitiful state of US race-relations.
That and crime, which is terrible in many parts of Europe. I park my car next to the projects every day when I come to work, and unlike in Parisan suburbs, nothing there has been burned recently.
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 25, 2006 1:24 PMSome other experiences with Euros...
I was once asked where in the US I was from.
"New Jersey," I responded.
"That's part of New York, isn't it?"
"No. It borders New York, and where I'm from is close to New York City, but it is a seperate state."
"I think you're wrong. I'm sure New Jersey is part of New York."
No kidding. I don't know where to go with conversations like that. Either the person is hopelessly bullheaded or trying to yank a chain for some reason.
Another time a very well educated man insisted that Muslims had been in the Middle East since long before either Jews or Christians. His point, I suppose, was that it was "their" territory. But where do you go with that? I tried explaining that Mohammed hit his stride in the 7th century, thousands of years after the Jews and more than half a millenium after Christians, but he refused to believe it. Muslims were always there and that's why they were always trying to get rid of the invading Jews and Christians. No doubt this was a single case of a misinformed person rather than any general misconception among Euros but the insistence was astonishing.
Posted by: Knucklehead on October 25, 2006 1:31 PMJess,
I mentioned the Belgian guests earlier. The ones who were sure there'd be homeless rummaging in my trash cans. On the ride from their hotel after they'd been in NYC a few days they sort of casually mentioned that they weren't sure whether they were relieved or disappointed that they hadn't seen or even heard any gun fights. Initially I presumed this was some sort of jest but they were serious. They expected anyone spending a few days in NYC was sure to see gunplay - there must be a half dozen gunfights in NYC every night on TV. In movies people run around all over NYC shooting and killing people.
I wandered into Wyoming once for a few miles and a few hours. Nary a rodeo to be found. Strange. In Spain I had to rent a scooter and ride an hour or more just to find a bull fight ring. Aren't they always chasing bulls around and stabbing them over there?
Posted by: Knucklehead on October 25, 2006 1:44 PM1) People here are amazed at the scale of the U.S. They don't generally think about it, but when I bring it to their attention they usually find it very interesting and often reexamine their view of the U.S. through that lens. Brits are astounded that most Americans don't have a passport and that so many have never been to Europe. When I remind them how much trans-Atlantic airfare is, it suddenly occurs to them that their yearly holiday in France or Crete is a lot more affordable than it would be for an American family.
2) No matter their political stripe, people here are anti-gun-ownership. Perhaps this is a London thing. They find the idea that people can own handguns to be bad to say the least, and the idea that ordinary citizens could carry handguns to be barbaric. Yes! There is no gun control debate. Everyone *knows* guns are dangerous and will kill people.
People starting to grumble about how common burglary is? Do a news report about violent crime in America. Speaking of which, as far as I can tell it is completely common to have had one's home burglarized in much of Europe.
I don't know anyone in the US who has ever had their car stolen. Nearly everyone I know in the UK has, including me, even in the short time I've been here. It's so common that theft cover is included in motor insurance by default. Even if your car is too old and cheap to be worth comprehensive cover, you'll almost certainly have theft cover along with the legally required liability insurance.
The most common question I hear from my US friends is "What's it like living in England?" The most common question from UK friends is "Do you like it better over here?" My US friends would never think of asking the second question, because *naturally* it is much better in America! My UK friends think they already know what it's like in the US.
They despise George Bush and are incredulous anyone would vote for him. Yes. And when people say 'But he's made America so unpopular in the world' they don't believe me when I tell them that middle America on the whole doesn't care about world opinion and pretty much expects to be hated.
I've given up completely trying to explain the influence of religion in America. This is a country with a state church and of all my acquaintance, the only one who has ever acknowledged a religion is a pagan. If I tell people that I went to church every Sunday growing up, they look at me like I'm going to suddenly start speaking in tongues or handle snakes or something. My stock response when people question me about religion in the US is to say "You threw all the Puritans out, and they had to end up somewhere." I can't explain ordinary church going Americans to Europeans.
because for every European who thinks they will need an armed escort to leave the house in Peoria, I'll show you an American who is surprised at the absence of fog in London.
There is definitely a lot more rain and fog here than where I lived in the southern US. And the sterotype about Brits with bad teeth is unfortunately well-founded. I see more people with missing teeth around here than I ever saw in the most backwoods Appalachian hick town. My UK dentist raved about my oral hygeine, which to all of my US dentists was okay but could stand improvement.
Well, I'd better end this before I get started on Brits and beer....
Posted by: Mrs. L on October 25, 2006 2:34 PMI find it interesting how people from both USA and England can have such distorted opinions about each other.
I lived in England for the first 40 years of my life and here in the USA for the last 27, and the conclusion I have come to about the cultural views the people of each country have about each other, is generally determine by what the media transport, and generally the media have only a sensational view of issues since that is what tends to sell.
Therefore the only true picture we can get of each other is by living in the respective countries for a long period, long enough to raise a family, and put down roots. Only then do you truly see the true America and England, both of which are great countries.
As a dumb european, I cannot get it in my head why I get carded over a 2pack of tylenol, but the day I went and bought a shotgun and 4 boxes of ammo for it, I didn't get carded once. In my very small Belgian mind, that just doesn't make sense, but that's just me.
I don't know this whole page of replies just proves one thing a lot of europeans think of americans, they think of you guys as flagwaving patriots, and you guys prove their point. Just read your comments and I hope you see most of you guys act as if you are a superior nation.
Of course most europeans have certain wrong ideas about America, just like you guys have wrong ideas about Europe. I remember my (american) husband being really suprised about seeing Jack Daniels in a vending machine, he thought that would just cause 10 year olds to get wasted. When I tell other americans about the vending machines, their reactions are simular. I also get asked if I really wear wooden shoes at home, I get asked if french people really are rude, I get asked if all people in Amsterdam are high all the time and let's not forget about 'do people still ride those big horses in belgium?'. And here is my absolute favorite, when people ask me what I spoke at home, I tell them Dutch...1 out of 2 people will say 'ah, sprehen sie deutch?' and then swear up and down that that is dutch.
There, see? You guys don't know everything either, so let's get over it and quit telling people about how dumb non americans are.
Posted by: yesferro on October 25, 2006 2:39 PMI hope you see most of you guys act as if you are a superior nation.
Because we have good reason for thinking that, on the whole, we are.
In my very small Belgian mind, that just doesn't make sense, but that's just me.
I agree. Its absurd that you were carded for buying Tylenol, especially when there is no legal requirement to do so.
You guys don't know everything either
We know.
Posted by: R C Dean on October 25, 2006 2:58 PMyesferro,
Could you please be so kind as to tell me where exactly you got carded for buying a 2-pack of Tylenol, but not for a shotgun? Specifically the state and store.
Posted by: Bill Dalasio on October 25, 2006 3:00 PMthe day I went and bought a shotgun and 4 boxes of ammo for it, I didn't get carded once.
Unless that day was quite a few years ago, the gun dealer committed a pretty serious violation of Federal (and likely State) law. I've bought many guns over the years, and I've shown ID every time. And if it was that many years ago, I doubt very much that you were carded for the Tylenol. And unless the Tylenol also contained pseudoephedrine, I can't see why you were carded for it at all.
In other words, your anecdote doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.
In any case, you've missed the point. It isn't that Euros are ignorant about the US. Of course they are, and that can be funny. And Americans are ignorant about Europe (of course), which can provide you with some nice laughs.
The point is: there are apparenly Euros willing to argue with Americans about how many states there are. Americans know they are ignorant about foreign countries, so they ask dumb questions about wooden shoes. Europeans--at least some of them--think that Americans are so ignorant about America that they don't know how many states make up their own country. That kind of arrogance mixed with ignorance is truly astonishing.
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 25, 2006 3:04 PMAs a dumb european, I cannot get it in my head why I get carded over a 2pack of tylenol, but the day I went and bought a shotgun and 4 boxes of ammo for it, I didn't get carded once.
If you were comparing like retail transactions to like retail transactions, that's not possible (legally), anywhere in the U.S.
Posted by: Unix-Jedi on October 25, 2006 3:06 PMIf she purchased a product containing pseudoephedrine, in many states she would have been required to produce identification. Whether that requirement is absurd depends on your politics, (I'm agin it) however it is intended as a measure to limit pseudoephedrine used in production of methamphetamine.
Generally speaking, as a country we find the harm done by drugs to be of far greater concern than the harm done by guns.
Personally, I think the US is closer to being correct on guns, and the Europeans are closer to being correct on drugs, but I am clearly in a minority.
Posted by: tsiroth on October 25, 2006 3:06 PMyesferro,
What you need to understand is that Americans have grown up being told how ignorant and backward and provinical we are by the media, the elites and prominent foreigners. And Bill Maher. We hear it all the time, it's a staple of news reports and academic writing and God knows what all. Americans tend to assume that Europeans are far more educated and sophisticated than we are. To find out otherwise goes against what we've been taught.
Sure, Americans are provincial. We expect that. To find out that Europeans aren't any different does tend to be a shock, although it really shouldn't be. That's what you're really reading here.
And, yes, we think the US is the best place to live. Everyone thinks their country is the best place to live. If that leads you to think that we're flagwaving patriots; well, whatever.
Your final advice is appropriate, that we should get over it. So let us find the truth, and we'll get over it.
The town is Tupelo MS, the tylenol part would have been normal if I had bought a few big packs of it, because if the pretty big meth problem we have around here, but the 2pack really really made me mad, I do not go to that Shell station for that reason, even though I know the clerk was just doing her job.
The shotgun was bought by my husband about 4 years ago, also in Tupelo. I could not believe it, certainly because I had just moved down here and did not know all too much about the gunlaws. My husband did NOT get carded for it, he did get a paper to fill out and send in to the national gun association. But he did that at home, not in the store. I will not force you to believe it, but I will not be called a liar either.
And be honest, a bunch of americans don't know how many states their own country has, but that might just be the horrible MS educational system here. I have met college grads with a history degree who could not place WW II . It really all depends on who you talk to. I cannot place all the american states on a map, but I at least have a general idea. I don't get mad when americans can't place Belgium on a map, but when they make muscles from Brussels jokes and have absolutely no clue if Beligum is next to Sweden or right below Italy, well, then I get mad.
Posted by: yesferro on October 25, 2006 3:13 PMYesferro,
I'd be interested to know where you were that required you to produce ID for a "2 pack of tylenol". I'd be just as interested in knowing where you were where no ID was required while purchasing a shotgun and four boxes of ammo.
I can tell you that where I live in the US no ID will be necessary to purchase a 200 pack of tylenol but not only ID, but applications, references, and background check will be required to purchase a firearm. A firearms license, I believe, would be required to purchase ammunition.
States are different. I'd like to know which ones I should be sure I carry my own tylenol into.
Regarding all those questions about "is it true?". At least they ask if their ideas are accurate. That's a bit different than being argued with about how many states there are, whether the one you are from is really part of another one or not.
The point, however, is valid. Americans can be assertively ignorant just as Euros can. For example, I once noted that my library had language learning kits and stopped at the desk in they had one for Swedish. The ignoramus behind me couldn't mind his own business and felt compelled to inform me that the people of Sweden do not have their own language but, rather, speak German. I was too dumbfounded by the ignorance to bother telling him to shut up and learn something before he opened his mouth. And Americans in general confuse Switzerland and Sweden. But few Americans, well, none, would presume to argue with a Swede or a Swiss about how many lans or cantons there are.
Re: the "flag waving patriots" thing... you say that as if it is an insult ;> Some of us are. Next time you walk down a typical American street count the number of US flags displayed. When you get back to the Netherlands, or whichever Euro country, walk down a typical street and count the number of flags displayed. You might find there's not a whole lot of difference. I didn't notice and paucity of flag waving for the World Cup matches I noticed on TV. I happened to be in Sweden while the first few matches were being played in Germany. I saw people, and no shortage of them, running around dressed head to foot in various national flag sorts of getups. And they weren't shy about waving actual flags. Seems to be plenty of it a international sporting events.
I have noticed one thing, however. Americans aren't quite as fond of burning other nations flags as some people are. Maybe we just have deeper respect for flags. I suppose other folks don't care the least little bit about flags except when sports are involved. To each his own.
Posted by: Knucklehead on October 25, 2006 3:17 PMRob:
Americans know they are ignorant about foreign countries, so they ask dumb questions
Yet my public schooling (in the much-maligned South Carolina, no less) spend quite a lot of time on "European history" and how it influenced the world. I can tell you the basics of the wars in England, the French revolution(s), Napoleon, the construction of Germany...
Yet most Euros *have never* been taught *anything* about U.S. history. (Lessons about WWII have been edited to being a mild disagreement with some yelling). The Civil War, and it's creation of a strong Federal government? The reasons the US sat out of WWI, and had trouble gearing up for WWII? Nothing. They can't tell you anything of that.
Which is why I wait with some bated breath for the U.S. to follow the logical path because of the U.S. bashing, say "Screw it" and leave Europe to burn the next time. (And the inevitiable blame that we should have been there, and the screeching from the very people demonizing the U.S. now...)
Posted by: Unix-Jedi on October 25, 2006 3:19 PMOw and just to make this clear, I like living in the USA, don't get me wrong on this. I am happy to live and work here, I am just a little too proud about my flemmish roots to let people make fun of them. I can assure you that yes, there are europeans out there that will tell you all americans are fat, lazy and drive cadillacs and I will tell them they are wrong also.
Posted by: yesferro on October 25, 2006 3:19 PMYesferro,
If your husband bought that gun at a retail store holding a federal firearms license, the clerk could do some serious jail time for not checking his ID, making him fill out a Form 4473, and running his info through the NICS computer. I don't want to call you a liar because it's possible, but it certainly wasn't legal. Not by a long shot, so to speak. It makes me wonder if the clerk wasn't attempting an off-the-books sale to steal from his employer.
If he bought it from another private person, then that's different.
I have met college grads with a history degree who could not place WW II .
That's easy to believe. They do surveys every year about that sort of thing and the results are always pathetic. But again, no one here is arguing that Americans are brilliant or well educated, just that we don't make it a habit of arguing with Europeans about who owns Gdansk ("No, really, Mr. Walesa, I'm sure it's Germany")
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 25, 2006 3:21 PMyesferro:
If he purchased the shotgun from an individual, depending on the circumstances, then no background check may have been needed.
But if he purchased it from a retail establishment, (unless he bought it before 1968) he would have had to produce photo ID (But thank $DIETY we can't make people have that to vote!), and the dealer would have filled out a form. After mid 1994, there would have been a background check, as well.
Posted by: Unix-Jedi on October 25, 2006 3:22 PMI am just a little too proud about my flemmish roots to let people make fun of them.
Yesferro: I don't know of anybody in the U.S. who'd begrudge you being proud of your roots. That's part of what we're saying here.
I hosted a French lawyer for a week (though boy, it felt longer, much, much longer), who was appalled that I was proud of having a Southern Accent, that I owned guns, that I drove a *gasp* truck... In other words, I should disassociate myself from everything from my background, and turn myself into an effeminate metrosexual. That would be a start. Seriously, she said I was far too masculine, and I should be ashamed.
And I've run into similar situations with other countries. I know many immigrants to this country - and we understand and honor that you're proud of where you came from.
Posted by: Unix-Jedi on October 25, 2006 3:26 PMYesferro, in the UK, you can only buy two boxes (no more than 16 pills each) of any painkiller at one time, in any combination (i.e. 2 boxes of ibuprofen, or 1 box of ibuprofen and 1 of tylenol). No ID is required, but if I want more than two boxes, I have to go to two different stores.
Someone told me (don't know if it's accurate) that it was because of people overdosing on tylenol. But why that would apply to all painkillers, I don't know. I get migraines and my husband has arthritis, so I've learned to always pick up my allowed two boxes of painkillers when I make a grocery trip so we won't run out. My next trip to the US, I'll be getting the big 500 pack of tylenol from WalMart. :)
Posted by: Mrs. L on October 25, 2006 3:32 PMI suppose it's worth remembering that what kicked this thread off was the gross ignorance of the elite media class in the UK.
I suppose a construction worker in Sacremento or Heidelberg might be forgiven for being ignorant of the finer points of the history of distant nations. But shouldn't reporters whose job it is to tell us about each other refrain from ridiculous errors that the contruction workers could correct for them?
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 25, 2006 3:32 PMI suppose it's worth remembering that what kicked this thread off was the gross ignorance of the elite media class in the UK.
I think the last three words are unnecessary. ;)
Posted by: Mrs. L on October 25, 2006 3:35 PMUnix-jedi, you were lucky to have a good history teacher, just like I had a teacher who cared and actually thought me the answers to your questions. Not every one was that lucky though.
The shotgun was bought in a hunters store, according to the MS law there is no need to register for a shotgun, you also don't need a permit to own one. There was no background check for sure, once again, this is what really really surprised me. Then again, the tylenol even surprised me more.
The flag waving patriot comment did not have to be taken as a negative comment. As for the you being in Europe during an international soccer tournament, I am sorry you had to witness that, then again, it could have been worse, you could have been in Holland at that time. As far as Belgium goes, soccer is about the only thing that unites all its citizens and brings out the flags, sadly.
Posted by: yesferro on October 25, 2006 3:39 PMYesferro, several people above have already clarified the point, but I'll make it again: it's a question of attitude. For decades, Americans have been told how stupid and boorish they are, and how they don't know anything about other countries. What people are pointing out in their anecdotes is that this often seems to be true about Europeans, too. Okay?
I've lived in and travelled through Europe myself, and I have plenty of amusing stories of cultural misunderstandings. Triticale, I've also gotten the machine-gun spiel upon telling people I was from Chicago. Machine guns, or people asking me if I knew Michael Jordan personally. As someone else said, you can usually clear those misunderstandings up very easily.
But I don't find European media amusing and I don't give them the benefit of the doubt. It's obviously their intent to promulgate misinformation about the U.S. Here's one example from my time living in Dublin as a graduate student. I woke up one morning to hear an Irish radio report of a 16-year-old who was shot to death in Northern Ireland by the RUC. The officers claimed he was shot while trying to drive through a road block. I.e., they were shooting at the car to stop it but accidentally hit him. However, the autopsy report suggested that he had been shot at point-blank range, probably while he was lying on the ground. I only ever heard this one news report about the incident. I never heard of any follow-up investigation, and I certainly never heard a single word about the story on the BBC or SkyNews. Why? They were much, much too busy reporting on the Rodney King story, which ran practically 24-7. I remember thinking that the BBC news readers were practically vibrating with intense delight at the story of police brutality in America, while ignoring it in their own backyard. It disgusted me.
Posted by: ak on October 25, 2006 3:44 PMTwill00
Sorry for my poor typing skills, but in answer to your question-Yeah, they worked about 3-4 days a month. One month, about 6 days.
Posted by: MikeinAppalachia on October 25, 2006 3:53 PMWow, Yesferro, you're pretty easily angered.
Somebody in Tupelo can't place Belgium on a map and you're angered? You think we might be able to find some folks in Belgium who can't place Burkina Faso or Benin, or maybe Paraguay or Tajikistan on a map? Let's, then we'll yell at 'em and beat 'em up. It's enough to piss ya' off.
Here's a question for the European commenters. I frequently hear the elitist ridicule about Passportless Americans. Keep in mind that passports are not a typical form of ID within the US (that gigantic place Euros can't quite grasp the size and diversity of). Americans (at least the last time I checked) do not need passports to travel to Canada or Mexico and at least some of the Carribean nations. In other words we don't use them for identification within the United States and we don't need them to travel anywhere on the entire North American continent which includes two rather enormous, interesting, and somewhat popular destinations that border us.
If passports were not a fairly typical ID and completely uneccessary for travel throughout all of the European continent and some of the popular holiday destinations, how many Europeans would bother having passports? Does anyone believe that a significantly higher proportion of Europeans travel outside of Europe (other than resort vacations and the like) than Americans traveling outside of the US (other than resort vacations and the like). I seriously doubt there is a large difference.
BTW, the best guess I've found (there's apparently no official number) is that roughly 20% of American adults hold passports. I presume this excludes the resident aliens and illegals since, if the shriekers about such things are correct, that's more than 20% right there.
A bit of an aside but I carry my passport for flying domestically and when I've got it I may as well use it for ID when required. It is somewhat amusing to show a passport for ID to someone who has never actually seen a passport and isn't quite sure whether or not to accept it as legal identification.
Posted by: Knucklehead on October 25, 2006 3:56 PMyesferro,
I wasn't calling you a liar. But the situation with the shotgun you described isn't consistent with U.S. law. Something unusual was going on.
Moreover, I'm not trying to deride Belgium or any other country. My point, for what it's worth, is that Americans are often faced, not with silly questions, but with opinions and judgements about our country that are very, very misinformed. The misinformation is not so much the problem as the presumption with which those misinformed judgements and opinions are offered. Even when we explain otherwise, we're told we're wrong. Now, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know a heck of a lot about Belgium (aside from really good beer, chocolate, and mussels). But, I also don't make too many judgements about the country or its people.
Posted by: Bill Dalasio on October 25, 2006 4:02 PMhaving lived in europe myself for a 6 years between england and germany, i know where you are coming from. this routine from the british press grew tiresome for me, but it's what the brits want to hear. they like hearing how horrible the americans are so they feel better about themselves. it's a weird propaganda thing.
on the other hand, maybe the global warming backlash the report is referring to is that certain republicans like schwarzenegger are taking a stance against bush... ?
Posted by: pietro on October 25, 2006 4:02 PMThere was no background check for sure, once again, this is what really really surprised me.
I direct your attention to 18 U.S.C. 922(s) (scroll waaaaay down), which requires buyers of all firearms to present ID, fill out a form, and be subject to a background check.
According to the notes (which I won't link to prevent being trapped in moderation) this section was added in 1993.
Penalties are found in 18 U.S.C. 924, and are lighter than I thought, with 1 year in prison max (assiming your husband isn't a drug dealer or serial killer, in which case they go up).
The overall point being that the law actually makes sense for once, it's just that your husband bought a gun from a criminal.
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 25, 2006 4:04 PMKnucklehead, I am offended when people make fun of Belgium without even knowing where it is at. That's different.
I have had the same problem you had when I just got here, my passport was denied as a legal id in a restaurant and in several gasstations. The same thing happened with my greencard. It might help you that the passportless comments are probably based on the fact that the card that I use as an id in Belgium is called a passport OR identification card. I think the confusion comes from back the day when the borders within the EU were not open yet. Driving from Holland to France could mean you had to pull out your passport twice. Things have changed though, luckily.
Rob, I do not plan on buying another firearm anytime soon. But I would love to go check out if that store checks for id's now, which I hope they do! My mom would love to hear they check too, since she along with many other europeans thinks that having 3 firearms in the house means some one will get shot. Just like (some )people in the biblebelt here think that all Belgians are drunk 24/7 because they can buy alcohol in the supermarket, on sundays and at the age of 15.
I do not get angered very easily Knuckelehead, but 20 or more posts about ignorant europeans made me have to say something about certain ignorant americans.
Posted by: yesferro on October 25, 2006 4:10 PMI spent a couple of years at Florennes AB back in the 80s - had a chalet a couple hundred yards from the Meuse in Hastiere. It was a great place and a great time in my life. One thing I remember was the annual festival in the town of Florennes where hundreds of people got out muzzle loaders and recreated some battle fought there a few hundred years ago. All these young guys were running around town, drinking beer, and firing off their muskets - a really great party. I was just wondering if you knew whether or not they needed a license :)
Posted by: Randy on October 25, 2006 4:35 PM
Knucklehead
About "rednecks". Based on what I've seen, the "nightlife" in Cardiff is almost identical to that of Charleston, WVa. Same attitudes, same last names, distinct (albeit different) accents, same opinions as to boss and local politicians, and about the same amounts of beverage.
Yesferro,
...[Your Mom] along with many other europeans thinks that having 3 firearms in the house means some one will get shot.
Well, notfuhnuttin but folks out there in the heartland would find that a pretty preposterous idea. Quite a few of us here in the more urbanized sections think its pretty silly also. I grew up in a house with more than three firearms. And we could reach out the window and just about touch the next house where, perhaps, there were three or more other firearms. Nobody got shot.
Folks might even find it insulting - like your Mom and "many other europeans" are making fun of them without, yaknow, knowing a darned thing about them or where they live or, for that matter, guns.
Just like (some )people in the biblebelt here think that all Belgians are drunk 24/7 because they can buy alcohol in the supermarket, on sundays and at the age of 15.
Do you really encounter a great deal of people there in the "biblebelt" who think Belgians are drunk 24/7? Really? How many people out there give a moment's thought to Belgium or Belgians?
People in NJ think it wierd, and make some fun of, the fact that you need to go to a state store to buy alcohol in PA. I thought it was rather silly every time I had to go to the System bolaget (State Ligour Store) to buy a bottle of wine (or anything stronger than "near beer" in Sweden (not to mention paying tax through the nose. OK, not so much tax on wine but Scotch or other booze, wow!). My Swedish visitors thought it odd that they could just go into any of a wide selection of liquor stores here and, providing they were 21 or older, buy plenty booze plenty cheap. They figured we must have drunks everywhere if booze was that cheap and easy to get.
The fact of the matter is it works both ways and even does so inside the US and inside of Europe. You're out there in the hinterlands where people seem to think that if alcholic beverages aren't tightly controlled the demon will get the kiddies. They sorta had a similar view of it in sophiticated, European Sweden also. Funny, ain't it.
Some people never set eyes on a passport or greencard and, when they finally did, thought they should be wary of it. Some other people never set eyes on a firearm and seem to think if they do they'll surely be shot.
Maybe if we keep pointing out how silly some of what we believe or think we know is, or how aggravating or insulting it can be to others, at least a few of us will learn to be a bit more thoughtful and introspective.
Posted by: Knucklehead on October 25, 2006 4:50 PM" ... your husband bought a gun from a criminal. ..."
Not necessarily.
Buying a gun in a hardware store without paperwork **MIGHT** be legal if if the gun had been the personal property of the clerk, rather than the property of the store. i.e. if it was a bona-fide private transaction.
And Mississippi is a very gun-friendly state, so I doubt if there is any problem at all with buying Ammo, as long as the buyer is over 18.
Posted by: john w. on October 25, 2006 4:52 PMI'm not sure what the comment that "I have met college grads with history degrees who could not place WWII" actually means. I assume what is meant is when the war was fought, rather than where. I have an easy time believing that one has met American college grads who couldn't give the years of World War II, but history majors? That I don't believe, unless we're counting people who mail away for their diplomas. I'm inclined to think this is a case of hyperbole, as is the "not being carded for a shotgun" thing. (I'm not calling you a liar, yesferro, but I'm deeply skeptical. However, I've met a lot of Europeans who think teenagers can walk into a convenience store and walk out with a shotgun in less than 15 minutes. It's not true anywhere in the country, but a lot of people seem to believe it.) I am, of course, hardly surprised that one can find Americans who can't find Belgium on a map, but how many Belgians could locate Montana? I grew up in the Northeast, but live in the Midwest. I am constantly being told how Easterners are ignorant of geography because they confuse Iowa with Idaho. They talk as if Midwesterners never confuse New Hampshire with Vermont.
Posted by: Andrew Stevens on October 25, 2006 5:02 PMMikeInAppalachia,
I've seen some video on the tube (but who knows what you can trust from the tube) of those Euros throwing oranges and tomatoes and stuff and having a right rumble. And from trucks and wagons and the street. Looked to me like the kind of thing sure to put somebody's eye out. What if they knocked somebody off the back of that veggie wagon? And what's with getting those bulls all fired up and chasing people? Who thought that was a good idea? And a person could get killed at a darned soccer match fercryinoutloud.
Man, those Euros are some violent whackjobs, aren't they! But don't have a glass of wine with dinner and then drive in some parts of Europe! After all, a glass of wine might turn you into a, ummm... what... raging bull running amok in the streets?
It was a while back (25 years?) and Spain ain't like that no more but 25 years isn't all that wildly long ago. My wife left our hotel wearing shorts and a T-shirt. The police stopped us and told her to turn around and go put some clothes on. I was spending some time out in the US "Bible Belt" back in those days and the police weren't all bothered by women in shorts and T-shirts.
Swedes think Danes are a bunch of drunken louts. Danes think Swedes are a bunch of prissy busybodies.
A lot of Euros don't seem to recognize their own diversity and also think we in the US have none. Its a big world. People have odd customs that seem downright nuts to other people. People in different places get hung up about different things.
I'm surprised by your muzzle loader festival. I presume one watches it standing back from the window a bit ;)
Posted by: Knucklehead on October 25, 2006 5:08 PMAndrew,
There's a lot of Euros who think Americans can walk into a bank, open an account, and be handed a gun as a gift. They saw Michael Moore's movie.
Posted by: Knucklehead on October 25, 2006 5:10 PMI find it rather funny that some Americans in this comment section claim that:
1) Europeans think that they know more about America than the other way around and
2) The Europeans are less humble than Americans and hold more on to their misperceptions (the 52 States and all that).
The funny thing being that these (certain) claims come up in a discussion about ignorance on the international level. Sure those Americans that hold on to these claims are more humble than their European counterparts - after all, that's why they hold on to these beliefs that they know for certain is true, even though they are based on nothing but anecdotal evidence...
Andrew,
They talk as if Midwesterners never confuse New Hampshire with Vermont.
I'm from the midlantic and it took me years to get those two sorted out. (Idaho is the one with the taters, Iowa has the corn.)
VT is the commie one further inland with a town or three trying to escape and join NH.
NH is the one where not a single person holds a passport but 98% are on some public committee of one sort or another. A brilliant system they have there in NH. They make sure there's enough people involved in public policy decisions that agreement is impossible. That way nothing gets done and everyone' hands stay out of other people's pockets. I heard tell even they're getting shaky these days though.
" ... I've met a lot of Europeans who think teenagers can walk into a convenience store and walk out with a shotgun in less than 15 minutes. It's not true anywhere in the country, but a lot of people seem to believe it.) ..."
Interestingly enough, less than a hundred years ago (i.e. back when America was still a free country) that was true. My father was born in 1903, and when he was 14 years old, he dropped out of school and took a job as a security guard for a payroll firm. But he had to supply his own gun -- so he just went down to the hardware store and bought one with no hassle whatsoever. (I still have the gun, and it still works just fine!)
It's sobering to think of how much Freedom we have lost in this (once great) country in just a single generation.
P.S. > As long as I'm reminiscing about the Old Man: Other jobs that he held, while under 18, included working in a slaughterhouse, and driving a mule team that pulled nitroglycerine wagons in the West Virginia oilfields. There were no Nanny-State 'Child' [sic] Labor Laws back in those days either.
US,
I was struck by the same thing when I was reading these posts. However, Point 1 (Europeans think they know more about America than the other way around) strikes me as pretty plainly true. The anecdotal evidence is fairly overwhelming and there's a good reason for it - American cultural hegemony. I'm perpetually astonished by how much foreigners do know about American cultural products, vastly more than Americans know about any other country's. And, in fact, I think the European perception is right. They do know more about America than we know about them. However, many of them have trouble distinguishing TV and Movie America from the actual place. This is where a certain amount of arrogance can creep in, when they refuse to be corrected on their misperceptions.
Point 2 is much less clear though and I think you're right to criticize people for that one. I meet lots of Americans who will argue with me about really stupid things, even though they know that I know more about the subject than they do. Americans are hardly immune to that sort of thing.
Posted by: Andrew Stevens on October 25, 2006 5:25 PMknucklehead this will be my last reply, since there is no point in taking this any further. The reason Belgium comes up here with people in the biblebelt is because they ask me if I am a) a yankee ,b) not from 'round here, c) suposed to be a boy because there is a simular name in the bible.
Posted by: yesferro on October 25, 2006 5:41 PMIt is no surprise to me why their News is so preoccupied with the United States. We rate. They don't.
The reason why Europeans claim to know so much about United States culture (while we Yankees are pretty ignorant on how things really are in Europe) is because the United States is more interesting than Europe. What is Europe, really? It is old people living in old houses with old ideas. What is fun about that? What is interesting about that? What is to talk about?
There was a time in history that if a single European "Great Power" sneezed, the whole world caught a cold. That time is passed. So wanting to know so much about so many countries where each one of them (individually) may matter so little, is (putting it bluntly) a wasted effort.
Posted by: Paul on October 25, 2006 5:43 PMIt's America in 'da hiz-house! All yooz socialist Euro-weenies, listen up, we're gonna fuck yo' shit up real good, hear? Gonna git our guns and blow yo stinky english leather smellin', french wine swirlin', polka dancin' asses down mutha'fucking Hogarth Lane 'till the carembert cheese comes outta yo' fucking NOSTRILS! And when you can't take it no mo', you know what we're gonna do next? Gonna fry us up some baby seal and take out our Bibles and start some hardcore mutha'fucking PRAYIN' over yo' jacked up selves.
America: Represent, bitches.
*fap fap fap*
Posted by: American Negro on October 25, 2006 6:27 PMAmericans (at least the last time I checked) do not need passports to travel to Canada or Mexico and at least some of the Carribean nations.
Actually, ever since 9/11, in many cases it is effectively required by an 'n'-forms-of-ID clause that restricts 'n' to the point where a passport is one of the few remaining options. And it is otherwise a good idea in any case if you want to cross the border smoothly, since a mere state-issued license/ID is no longer trusted as much as it once was.
Regarding the gun tangent in the thread: Mississippi is probably the Union's proof positive that guns don't kill people. Guns are everywhere and, in some areas, change hands like dollar bills. They are often found in greatest quantity among people whose bottle wasn't exactly plucked from the top shelf. Yet somehow, the state has failed to anhiliate itself in an orgy of hot lead.
Posted by: anony-mouse on October 25, 2006 6:54 PMValjean,
I would suspect that self-service is not culturally specific to the United States, as you imply, and that it is adopted, at different times and different places, depending upon a number of specific factors.
I find it ironic that my friend and I were berated for using self-service pumps in South Africa ten years ago as the cashier thought that we were providing a bad example to the slow helper, who we ignored, as efficient Brits whose time was money.
The attitudes you embody are probably western, not specifically American.
Indeed, if there were a case of pot calling kettle black in these comments, European and Americans are probably it, for talking past each other. Just as US counties differ (not just states), so can London boroughs (the most urban collection of villages in the world, outside Tokyo).
You all have a lot more in common than you think.
Posted by: Philip Chaston on October 25, 2006 7:32 PMPaul,
What is to talk about?
All the great art in the museums and literature in the libraries. Most of the great stuff done in the distant past. Sometimes the very distant past. ;)
Other than that they like to talk about how horrible the US is. We are, after all, the descendants of the people who left either willingly or in abject fear for their lives. Our ancestors were their dredges who rejected them. We can't do anything worthwhile. That would suggest maybe they shouldn't have chased our ancestors away. That would suggest they made a mistake.
BTW, there's a huge faction in Europe that believes the horrors of WWII wouldn't have been nearly as bad if the US hadn't come in all heavy handed and blowing up everything. Seriously. Nobody has brought that up in this thread (at least I haven't noticed it) but this is a fairly widely held view in France and Belgium in particular.
Posted by: Knucklehead on October 25, 2006 7:37 PM"And be honest, a bunch of americans don't know how many states their own country has" -- yesfarro.
I am calling yesfarro a liar. Unless you are including Americans under the age of 10.
Posted by: moptop on October 25, 2006 7:40 PM"Canadians are convinced that there are 52 states as well, and will really argue the point with you. They think Alaska & Hawaii were 51 & 52. I've pretty much given up on this."
Holy hooba. How many provinces and territories do we have. Ding! Time's up.
You know we had a comedy program up here (Canada, btw) that had a segment called "Talking to Americans", where the host ould get americans to say the most outlandish things you could imagine about Canada. "Congratulations Canada on legalizing staplers!" "Congratulations Canada on 800 miles of paved road" "Congratulations Canada on legalizing VCRs" "Congratulations Canada on getting your first jet aircraft" "I call on Canada to end the Toronto Polar Bear Hunt" "I don't see why Canada, a landlocked country, should have a navy!" On and on and on. Princeton professors, the governor of Oklahoma, poli sci grad students. I sh*t you not. Very. Very. Funny.
So cut the smugness eh? After all, it was your own Ann Coulter, that leading intellectual light, that "corrected" one of our journalists when he informed her (accurately) that Canada did not participate in the Vietnam war.
And why is it you expect Europeans to have perfect knowledge of the US? Why are you so shocked that their TV news isn't that great?
Posted by: Tim H on October 25, 2006 8:04 PM"Canadians are convinced that there are 52 states as well, and will really argue the point with you. They think Alaska & Hawaii were 51 & 52. I've pretty much given up on this."
Holy hooba. How many provinces and territories do we have. Ding! Time's up.
The difference, of course, is that the Canadians in this example (or Europeans in the original post) think they know about America, while most Americans would likely admit they don't know how many provinces Canada has. Your sarcastic question doesn't really make much sense, and doesn't relate at all to the quote you have, unless you've encountered Americans who argue with you over how many provinces there are...
Posted by: Steven on October 25, 2006 8:54 PM> How many provinces and territories do we have. Ding! Time's up.
Why is it more important to know how many provinces and territories Canada has than it is to know how many counties California has?
After all, California has more people, a greater GDP, and so on.
The whole
Posted by: Andy Freeman on October 25, 2006 9:30 PMTim H,
In the three cases I can recall with Euros the "52 states" thing was not a response to some question. It was a number they offered up as part of some conversation or some desire to demonstrate knowledge. And when told that they were incorrect, with no hostility (heck, after the second time I was downright amused and intrigued), that there are only 50 they insisted there are 52. You may attempt to explain that away any way you like.
If a Canadian asked me, as a quiz or whatever, how many provinces there are in Canada I would immediately answer, "I dunno. I'll guess seven." If they then said, "Nope, twelve" (or whatever) I wouldn't insist, "No, I'm quite sure there are seven!"
Nonsense like "Name them!" or "How many subdivisions in Manitoba?" are beside the point. The poinat is that somehow Euros, and Canadians apparently, have convinced themselves there are 52 states and that Americans are too dumb to contradict them. Explain that any way you want. It tells me that not only are Euros arrogant about the quality of their education and knowledge of the US but also have a preposterous idea about the defectiveness of American education and knowledge.
BTW, I've lost track of the link but a while back there was a URL floating around that provided a map of Africa + the middle east and a portion of southeast Asia. It also had a list of nation's names. The challenge was to match the nations to the map. There was some fun with various 'murricans and euros since I know a selection of both. The euros did no better than the 'murricans. One either pays attention to such things or one doesn't. High school education for people more than 40 years old didn't include half the names on that map. Back in the day a half-dozen or so of them were just part of the large blob labeled "Soviet Union". African names have changed a great deal also.
The point of this whole thing is that 'murricans are less arrogant about their ignorance that Euros are. Americans know we don't generally pay much attention to world geography. We know we aren't international linguists. Canada is the giant place to the north with not many people, lots of trees, and moose. Other than that we don't insist that we know much. We would never presume to argue with Canadians about how many provinces or whether or not all Mounties look like Duddley Dooright.
Posted by: Knucklehead on October 25, 2006 9:31 PMIs it time to pick on Canada?
I spent two weeks in Calgary a couple summers ago and listened to every bartender and waitress in the city tell me how great Canada was and how awful Americans were. I would then ask them if they'd like the opportunity to live in the USA, and the universal answer was- YES (in a New York minute).
There were some pretty scary parts of Calgary BTW, including a nice little "needle park" area.
One further note, apparently every man, woman, and child living in western Canada has had a screen role in a major motion picture. When a server approached my table, the first thing I'd ask (after ordering a drink, of course!) was the names of the movies he/she had appeared in. I can't remember ANYONE saying they hadn't been an extra somewhere.
Sorry, knucklehead, but in most of the US (the enlighted states, at any rate) there's no such thing as a "firearms license" and you certainly don't have to produce one to buy ammo. A simple ID check showing you are of age is all that ever happens in most places.
Posted by: Kirk Parker on October 25, 2006 10:05 PMYou know we had a comedy program up here (Canada, btw) that had a segment called "Talking to Americans", where the host ould get americans to say the most outlandish things you could imagine about Canada. "Congratulations Canada on legalizing staplers!" "Congratulations Canada on 800 miles of paved road" "Congratulations Canada on legalizing VCRs"
It seems to me that the lesson of that show is that Americans are willing to take Canadians' word for it about events in Canada. That's the opposite of the problem being discussed here, which is Canadians NOT being willing to listen to Americans about basic American facts.
It isn't that we know more about our neighbor than you do about yours. It's that we KNOW we don't know, and you don't. From an American perspective Canada is basically North Minnesota -- cold, kinda dull, and the people talk funny.
Posted by: Dan on October 25, 2006 10:12 PMTim H,
Your little rant of your own self-proclaimed superiority makes me think of a recurring question: What is the difference between Canadians and Americans? Canadians are the ones who could actually care less about what the difference between Canadians and Americans is.
Posted by: Bill Dalasio on October 25, 2006 10:15 PMPhilip,
True enough and thanks for the reply. I think this post has been jolly fun but I'm near beseeching Jane to jot down something else so we can off it.
As for self-service, I'm glad you've provided me with solid counter-points. If I thought about it longer, I probably would have come up with that great Euro tradition of bagging (sacking?) your own groceries, which all but the greenest and trendiest of Americans hasn't experienced. And if you want someone else to pump your gas stateside you can always visit the fine state of Oregon. It's the law there (really).
The attitudes you embody are probably western, not specifically American.
I'd certainly like to think so, and will take that as a compliment.
Jane should count her blessings that she's in London, because not only has the first couple episodes of series (by which I mean season) 7 of Prime Suspect gotten underway, but she could also be watching the all new series (by which I mean series), Torchwood, the Doctor Who spinoff (set in Cardiff) about 10 months before it makes it to America. Also, "Spooks" is in series 5 now, I think, and airing away nicely. Imagine-- an uninterrupted 58 minute stretch of drama airing right there on your television, instead of an hour of TV being 42 minutes, frequently interrupted.
Jane could also catch up on episodes from America that she missed 6 months ago. And she can view a sampling of Britain's main cinematic exports, movies about plucky individuals in working-class towns that were torn apart by Thatcherism, finding it in themselves to accomplish great things, find or renew a loving relationship, and or pull one over on city-folk!
Posted by: LAN3 on October 25, 2006 11:06 PMCanada: Great beer :-) Tax on CD-Rs that assumes everyone's a pirate :-(
Posted by: anonymous on October 26, 2006 12:19 AMMy company is located near Concord, Massachusetts. We do a fair bit of international business. We often put foreign clients up in hotels in Concord and Lexington. Our visitors tend to be educated and apparantly sophisticated people.
I can not recall a single instance of a European or Japanese visitor who had any idea of the significence of the place they were visiting. Questions such as, "Do you want to visit the Old North Bridge?" have been consistently met with blank stares. "Would you like to visit the Alcott's (or Hawthorne's or Emerson's) house?" elicits embarassed silence. Maybe one in ten has heard of Emerson or Thoreau, but not one has any idea who Hawthorne or the Alcotts were.
I was assured by a German visitor that American history was "quite simple." "That may be true," I replied, "but would you like to see where the events of April 19, 1775 took place? It's not 500 metres from here." She had no idea what I was talking about. "You know, the Minutemen from Lexington and Concord fought the British regulars at the Old North Bridge. It's just up the street."
"Has that something to do with the American Revolution? But that happened in 1776," she replied, quite sure of herself, and unable to process the fact that this could be the place where it started, and that it lasted eight years.
The sad conclusion I've reached is that I know a whole lot more about the Seven Years' War (or the Thirty Years' War or the War of Austrian Succession) than our European visitors know about the American Revolution.
I suppose it just wasn't that important.
Posted by: Fontbonne on October 26, 2006 1:37 AMIf I thought about it longer, I probably would have come up with that great Euro tradition of bagging (sacking?) your own groceries, which all but the greenest and trendiest of Americans hasn't experienced.
We have optional electronic checkout kiosks at most large stores now. We not only bag our own groceries, but we can ring them up as well. :)
Posted by: Ryan on October 26, 2006 2:15 AMFunny thing is Brits and Americans seems to know so little about each other and they are as close culturally as possible. Just try to imagine how much do Chinese or Arabs know about Americans and vica versa. I'd bet you'd be astonished, even scared by the attitude and knowledge about Americans here in Eastern Europe (about Brits too for that matter).
Posted by: Pavel on October 26, 2006 3:47 AMnew Dick Francis novel. (Sadly, he is not what he once was
When his wife died a few years ago, he announced that he wouldn't be writing any more. I gathered between the lines that she probably did a lot of the writing. Recently I saw that he had started writing again, and I wondered how his solo work would stack up. I guess I have my answer (at least until I read it myself).
Maybe tomorrow I'll take in some British actors doing bad impersonations of Americans.
For a British actor doing a good impression of an American, watch Hugh Laurie on House. If I didn't know he wasn't American I'd never have guessed it. There's a good actor on a good show (though the Princeton NJ in which it is set is obviously in a different universe than our own).
Posted by: Milhouse on October 26, 2006 4:02 AMWith no malice intended, I'd just like to register a recurring impression I get of Canada, reinforced every time I visit or talk with a friend from there...
Canada seems to love to take credit for random bits and piece of "American culture" (a phrase that you never hear anyone use here, but that people elsewhere use ceaselessly). Example:
A few years ago I went to the Yorkdale Mall in Toronto, which is (I believe) the largest mall in the country, unless you count PATH underground in downtown. In the food court there was a Kentucky Fried Chicken. I bought some chicken, which came in a little cardboard box, as it is wont to do. On the side, it had a blurb about KFC's history, which went like this:
"The first Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant opened in Calgary in 1954. Since then..."
Not a word to suggest that it didn't start, you know, somewhere other than Canada.
Another time, I was talking with a Canadian friend, and for some reason I mentioned Dr. Seuss. He turned to me in surprise and said, "I'm surprised you know about Dr. Seuss down here. He's Canadian, after all."
Which surprised me in turn, because after all the man was born in Massachusetts.
Of course, maybe that's just our oppressive state-controlled media feeding me bad information, right? "Quadro-triticale? Of course, Keptin. It is Russian inwention."
Now, I know full well that we Americans don't always give credit to all the Canadian actors and comedians that appear on our screens so often. But, to reinforce the point of this thread, I suspect that if we're told that Dan Aykroyd or Mike Myers is from Canada, our response would be "Really? I'll be damned." Not "No way, you must be wrong."
However, I've met a lot of Europeans who think teenagers can walk into a convenience store and walk out with a shotgun in less than 15 minutes. It's not true anywhere in the country, but a lot of people seem to believe it.)
-Andrew Stevens
Well, it would be unusual for the paperwork to be processed that quickly, and it would be a good idea to take a bit more time to consider the pros and cons of the various models on hand before reaching for your wallet, but there are states where the minimum age to buy a shotgun is 18. So it is possible that if someone who was 18 or 19 lived in such a state and knew exactly what they wanted and walked in during a slow time and the salesman was very efficient, they could walk out with a shotgun 15 minutes later. It is kind of improbable... 30 minutes would be doable, though.
Why is it more important to know how many provinces and territories Canada has than it is to know how many counties California has?
After all, California has more people, a greater GDP, and so on.
-Andy Freeman
I freely admit I haven't the faintest idea exactly how many counties are in California. Too many, I figure, but there's this pesky constitutional prohibition on splitting up big states to make smaller states, so I guess I'll have to live with it.
As far as Canada is concerned, I dunno. I thought it was around 10 or so, but I'm not sure if that 'Northwestern territories' bit up by Alaska is considered a province or not. The last time I checked, it was kind of ambiguous. But it doesn't seem to bother the Canadians, so I figure I shouldn't worry about it, either.
ps to knucklehead: what is this 'firearms license' you speak of? You must live back east. Out west, politicians who propose such things tend to become ex-politicans pretty quickly (or get deported to Washington DC).
"And if you want someone else to pump your gas stateside you can always visit the fine state of Oregon. It's the law there (really)."
I believe New Jersey is the same...
The last time a thread here generated this level of commetary, it was about alternative energy technology.
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 26, 2006 9:06 AMCarded for Tylenol: This can happen because the store doesn't want to keep track of all the laws on over-the-counter drugs and all the formulas - so it's simpler just to card for everything.
Not carded for a shotgun: I can see that happening at a small town gas station/convenience store where you shop regularly. The federal requirements are that you fill out a form that the dealer must keep on file, you prove your identity, and you pass a NICS check; some states require more, but most don't. If the clerk knows you and remembers carding you for Tylenol, beer, or whatever, the identity requirement is covered (although maybe not strictly to BATF regulations). Yesferro says her husband did fill out a form. If NICS was working well, he might not have noticed the clerk running the check.
Posted by: markm on October 26, 2006 9:12 AMI'm curious as to people's experiences with NICS. I bought a .22 Marlin for plinkin' at a WalMart in central Oregon. The NICS check took about 2 minutes, I think; the clerk said it was the shortest it had ever taken.
Posted by: Klug on October 26, 2006 9:44 AMWell, at least we like the Belgians better than these guys...
Posted by: RMc on October 26, 2006 9:54 AMEuropeans--at least some of them--think that Americans are so ignorant about America that they don't know how many states make up their own country. That kind of arrogance mixed with ignorance is truly astonishing.
I hate to break this to you, Rob, but some Americans don't know this either. My sister was appalled to hear one of her college classmates declare that there are 51. She thought her two roommates would be equally shocked, but when she asked them how many states there are, they started arguing whether there are 51 or 52!
I do sometimes feel the opinions I hear about American policy or society from non-Americans are off-base and unfair (and I admit even fair criticism makes me a little defensive, even though it gives a helpful perspective). But I also sometimes feel this way about criticism of Americans by Americans. I had a friend who said he felt disturbed by people who drive cars because they want to cut themselves off from their surroundings. We live in New York City, so to his mind travel by car was one option among many. Of course in many places cars are the only mode of transportation and thus allow people to connect with others, but this never occurred to him till I pointed it out. (New Yorkers can be pretty ignorant about life outside the city, but we're not unique. When my parents moved from upstate NY to Minnesota, kids asked my brother if he brought a switchblade to school - because everyone from New York lives in NYC, and every NYC schoolkid brings a weapon to school.)
Posted by: sprite on October 26, 2006 11:22 AMI hate to break this to you, Rob, but some Americans don't know this either.
I don't doubt it. I've met some amazingly ignorant people, although none who miscount the states. And no doubt there are Germans confused about the number of Laender and Parisans who miscount the Arrondisments. Maybe there are even New Yorkers who miscount the boroughs.
And I've certainly met city dwellers who misunderstand the country, and vice versa. Heck, I've had east coasters ask me if I knew Kurt Cobain because I grew up in Seattle.
But if you had to take odds on who knows better the number of states, do you bet on the American or the European? And if you're confident in some factoid about a foreign country, do you argue with someone from that country, or do you yield in good grace and go try to look it up?
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 26, 2006 11:50 AMIn the post before this one, you wrote:
But it's not like I know a lot about the far corners of the earth.
Or about fuck-all else, for that matter.
Posted by: Fergus Carthstone on October 26, 2006 11:54 AM"Your little rant of your own self-proclaimed superiority makes me think of a recurring question: What is the difference between Canadians and Americans? Canadians are the ones who could actually care less about what the difference between Canadians and Americans is."
Bill Dalasio must not have spent much time here. Canadians are OBSESSED with finding the (relatively small) differences between Americans and Canadians. Rick Mercer has made a career out of it, as has the "I am Canadian" beer guy (who later moved to the US). What really infuriates Canadians is that Americans really do not think about them much at all. Americans should, since Canada is their largest trading partner by far, but the reality is that they don't.
"Holy hooba. How many provinces and territories do we have. Ding! Time's up."
As others have mentioned, Tim H missed the point. No American will correct a Canadian on how many provinces & territories there are, because it is not that important to them, and they realise it. Certain Canadians will argue the number of states vehemently, because getting such a basic fact wrong calls into question their knowledge on other US matters, and it is important for them to have a negative view of the US for their own self-esteem.
By the way, most Canadians do not know how many territories there are, since one got subdivided a few years ago (answer: 10 provinces, now 3 territories).
Concerning Canadian involvement in Vietnam, Coulter (who of course is not representative of average Americans, and her whole shtick is to be outrageous), was incorrect, but there certainly was a considerable Canadian component to the war (which most Canadians do not realize):
"But while Canada as a nation was not involved, Canadians themselves formed the largest foreign contingent in the U.S. military during the Vietnam era. Some estimate that their numbers far suppressed the more than 30,000 Americans draft dodgers who fled to Canada to avoid military service during the war. While exact numbers are impossible to obtain, from my work as a military historian with the Canadian War Museum, I estimate that of the many thousands who served in the U.S. Vietnam-era military, some 12,000 Canadians actually served in Vietnam itself."
"Canada's official diplomatic position was as a non-participant, but the country was not neutral in the conflict: it professed explicit support for the United States. Canada was also a major supplier of equipment and supplies to the American forces. Canada did not send these directly to South Vietnam, but sold them to the United States. Throughout the Vietnam War Canadian manufacturers profited from the conflict. Sold goods included relatively benign items like boots, but also napalm and commercial defoliants the use of which was fiercely opposed by antiwar protesters at the time. Between 1965 and 1973, Canada sold some $2.5 billion worth of matériel to the American forces. Canada also allowed their NATO ally to use Canadian facilities and bases for training exercises and weapons testing."
Posted by: mr.x on October 26, 2006 12:07 PM"(which most Canadians do not realize)"
You see, there you go. Speaking for what others in other countries may or may not know. I think most Canadians know that Canadians did participate as volunteers. Same way we did in your civil war. But *CANADA* did not. It's an important distinction, don't you think?
And don't you think it ironic that the above quote goes on about explicit support while mentioning the 30,000 draft dodgers that we allowed to stay? I think the support was a little equivocal. And selling equipment shouldn't be construed as participating or supporting a conflict. Simple old arms trade profiteering.
Anyway, the point was about having some American know-it-all hack telling a Canadian about Canada. Which is kind of what you did with your post there.
Regards,
Posted by: Tim H on October 26, 2006 12:30 PMActually, there is nothing in the Constitution that keeps states from breaking themselves up, so long as it's their legislature doing it. The prohibition is on the Federal government rearranging state boundaries without the consent of the state's government. Which is why West Virginia is almost certainly an unconstitutional creation. (Then again, the direct election of Senators is unconstitutional, too, at least in those states that were in the union at the time it passed, but did not vote for that amendment. Those two are, IIRC, the only two places where the ability to amend the Constitution is limited.)
And I had no idea Americans were so... sensitive. Sorry you get into debates about how many states you have. Is it so hard to just say "look it up" and leave it at that?
And while Mr. X gets the prize for knowing about provinces and territories, several others alluded to the correct answer, which is: "who gives a f*ck". Which was my point. 50, 52, big whoop. When did you guys get all brittle about not being listened to?
I can't get over the extent to which this has touched a nerve. Has this pointed out some new American insecurity? Is it that you perceive that a lot of people think Americans are stoopid and therefore feel free to contradict Americans about these bits of civic trivia, or tell Americans what's going on in their own country because they can't possibly be getting it right? Well, do you have reason to feel so insecure? FOX news doing a fair and balanced job? Foreign policy going well? Feel proud of that genius in the White House? Can't blame your for wanting to fight the perception created by these morons. And if you don't have anything to feel insecure about, well, let the windbags and jacksasses bloviate on and then laugh at them behind your back. It's what a Canadian would do. But ask yourself why you care so much all of a sudden.
You see, there you go. Speaking for what others in other countries may or may not know. I think most Canadians know that Canadians did participate as volunteers. Same way we did in your civil war. But *CANADA* did not. It's an important distinction, don't you think?Actually if you bothered to actually read the transcript of the exchange, rather than mis-paraphrasing it, you’d see that all that Coulter said was that Canada had sent troops to Vietnam, not that they were a “participant.” Canada had in fact sent troops to Vietnam as part of a peacekeeping force during Operation Gallant (there’s also the little matter of Canadian personnel working for the Canadian government serving as spotters for our bombers while “officially” proclaiming their “neutrality”).
let the windbags and jacksasses bloviate on and then laugh at them behind your back.
That's exactly what we were doing until you and yesferro showed up and told us to stop.
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 26, 2006 1:29 PMI can't get over the extent to which this has touched a nerve. Has this pointed out some new American insecurity? Is it that you perceive that a lot of people think Americans are stoopid and therefore feel free to contradict Americans about these bits of civic trivia, or tell Americans what's going on in their own country because they can't possibly be getting it right? Well, do you have reason to feel so insecure? FOX news doing a fair and balanced job? Foreign policy going well? Feel proud of that genius in the White House? Can't blame your for wanting to fight the perception created by these morons. And if you don't have anything to feel insecure about, well, let the windbags and jacksasses bloviate on and then laugh at them behind your back. It's what a Canadian would do. But ask yourself why you care so much all of a sudden.
Hee hee! Obsess much about the US, canuck?
Seriously dude, relax. The desperation in your post is almost painful. Have a Molson or something.
Posted by: DRB on October 26, 2006 1:54 PM"Actually if you bothered to actually read the transcript"
Of course, how lazy and non-obsessive of me to not obtain the transcript and parse it word for word. I did see the piece, however, in the course of normal healthy television watching.
As I say, I did see the piece and Coulter was definitely talking about Canada as a participant in Vietnam. To think otherwise would require an unhealthily obsessive and revisionist close reading of the transcript. D'ya really think she was talking about Operation Gallant? Wow, she's well informed!
But you've READ THE TRANSCRIPT? Holy man. Why would you do that? Does it bug you that much that another American was seen to be stupid and arrogant? You care that much what Canadians think? That's touching. And odd.
Anyway, can we at least agree that windbags and jackasses are common to all cultures and nations?
Posted by: Tim H on October 26, 2006 2:03 PMAnyway, can we at least agree that windbags and jackasses are common to all cultures and nations?
Yes, we apparently have someone posting as “American Negro” and Canada has you.
"Obsess much about the US, canuck"
A little. Why wouldn't we? A nuclear armed neighbour 10 times our size run by trigger happy morons. You are our largest trading partner. 80% of Canadians live within 200 miles of the border (or something like that, please, no furtive Wikipedia "gotcha" projects). You are our largest trading partner. We are awash in american culture, products, and tourists. We can't just ignore you and hope you go away. To not be able to make observations would take a close mindedness of epic proportions.
No need to taunt or get shrill.
Posted by: Tim H on October 26, 2006 2:11 PM"and Canada has you"
I just won a bet with someone. I bet it would take fewer than 5 posts for someone to make the obvious witty rejoinder there. Thanks! I've got 10 bucks from a coworkers, and you took the tone up a notch.
Look, I'm just adding a perspective, not trying to insult anyone. I'm disappointed it's so unwelcome and has prompted so much defensiveness. Go back to talking amongst yourselves.
Posted by: Tim H on October 26, 2006 2:17 PM"You see, there you go. Speaking for what others in other countries may or may not know." ...
"Anyway, the point was about having some American know-it-all hack telling a Canadian about Canada. Which is kind of what you did with your post there. "
Tim H, I am a Canadian in Canada, not in some unnamed "other" country. So who exactly is the "know-it-all hack" in this exchange? Why are you getting so defensive and testy?
"Is it so hard to just say "look it up" and leave it at that?"
Tim H, if you read the post carefully, you would know that I already gave up trying. "Look it up" does not work (believe me, I tried). If you paid attention, this whole discussion would go better.
"I think most Canadians know that Canadians did participate as volunteers."
Tim H, I seriously doubt that. Whenever I had that discussion with people in university or grad school, that bit of information always came as a surprise, as did the more formal involvement of South Korea, Australia, Thailand, the Philippines, and New Zealand. And these were discussions with history / poli sci students, even professors.
"Same way we did in your civil war."
Tim H, Canada had a civil war? I don't think the 1837-1838 rebellions or the Riel uprising of 1885 would qualify as a civil war, much less the FLQ crisis.
"FOX news doing a fair and balanced job? Foreign policy going well? Feel proud of that genius in the White House?"
Tim H, we can't get Fox News Channel (at least not in my area, although I think the CRTC finally approved it after some controversy), so I wouldn't know. I'm not sure that Canadian foreign policy is going that well right now, but thanks for asking. As for feeling pride about the leader of a foreign country, probably no more or less pride than I feel for any other Western leader, ie I don't really feel much of anything about it although I do have opinions. I do have specific feelings about Chretien & Gagliano, I would not characterize those feelings as pride, but I don't think the other participants are interested in that.
"... let the windbags and jacksasses bloviate on and then laugh at them behind your back. It's what a Canadian would do."
Tim H, that is what this Canadian has been doing. Please try to focus, you're making us look bad.
Think about it: what are the chances an American would be familiar with Rick Mercer?
Posted by: mr.x on October 26, 2006 2:21 PMThink about it: what are the chances an American would be familiar with Rick Mercer?
Why, I'm insulted! Of course I know all about him. After being born in poverty in rural Vietnam in 1971, he was smuggled out by Canadian non-particpants, and got his start in Republican poltics after graduation from McGill university in Toronto. Overcoming the vicious racism in the snow-bound Candian capital of Vancouver, he rose to the top of his party and recently toppled the Liberal leader, Jack Christan, and is now the Premier of Canada.
Tim H, If that sounds stupid and you feel the urge to correct any of it, then you now know how Americans feel when forced to discuss their own nation with the "educated" twits from overseas. Except that 1) there are fewer insults in my paragraph, and 2)I won't contradict any of your corrections.
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 26, 2006 2:35 PMRob:
Finally some wit.
I do get the source of irritation. Happens to everyone. But the level of venting made me ask if there isn't something more to it than mere irritation. If there isn't, fine, whatever. Just asking.
Mr. X. Must have missed where you said you were Canadian. I was referring to the US civil war, btw (in the mistaken assumption that you were American, you see).
And the world knows about American stuff because it is the world's dominant economy, the remaining superpower blah blah blah. That there's a lot of misperception sucks. That people don't want to listen when they're corrected by someone who knows better sucks. But 'twas ever thus, and should be expected when you're the elephant in the room. But portraying Americans as immune from windbaggery and obtuseness? I dunno. The defense to that seems to be a self-professed ignorance and apathy. Which is a little sad, and to my mind merely feeds the mindset that wants to tell Americans things.
Sorry if I'm coming off as shrill. I don't intend to. Typing doesn't convey tone very well. But if I'm just coming off as a jackass and it's better I f*ck off, then fine. Let the venting continue.
Americans immune to windbaggery and obtuseness? Are you kidding? Flip on any of our major networks on Sunday morning: nobody does it better than the U.S. Senate. Nobody. Well, maybe Hollywood when they put on the Serious Social Activist caps.
But am I (and my compatriots) a little touchy? Sure. I wouldn't care for my local newspaper to editorialize agasint my wife, even if I agreed with it. I'd be especially annoyed if they did it based on press reports written by people who couldn't pick her out of a lineup, and who got her name wrong.
I'd be triply annoyed if the criticism ran along the lines of "She doesn't cook enough good meals for you, but she spends too much time in the kitchen baking." (Here I'm thinking of the criticims that the US committed murder by 1) intervening in Bosnia and Iraq, and 2) not intervening in Rwanda and Darfur. These criticisms are usually advanced by the same people.)
And I'd be beside myself if some newspaper ran a headline that said "How could Rob be so DUMB as to marry her?"
At some level, I suppose I could say "Who cares what some idiotic paper thinks?" But I'd still dislike the editors, and get perverse joy out of any misfortune that befell them.
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 26, 2006 3:21 PM"Mr. X. Must have missed where you said you were Canadian."
Tim H, I never said I was, I never said I wasn't, you just assumed that someone who knows how many states there are could not possibly be a Canadian. You staked out a position about an "American" based on an ignorant assumption, and vehemently defended it despite all evidence to the contrary (most Canadians don't know about Nunavut's new status, what are the odds an American would?).
Thank you for illustrating my point perfectly.
I do not recall anyone here "portraying Americans as immune from windbaggery and obtuseness", please indicate who did.
Posted by: mr.x on October 26, 2006 3:41 PMBill Daslie made me laugh.
"Camadians are the ones who dont care..."
I have talked to Austalians who say that if they are not sure whether someone is American or Canadian, they ask them if they are Canadian, because if the person is American, they are amused, and if they are Canadian, they get angry.
True story. Sorry.
Posted by: moptop on October 26, 2006 4:30 PMYou know what I meant. If they are Canadians and you get it wrong.
Posted by: moptop on October 26, 2006 4:32 PM"you just assumed that someone who knows how many states there are could not possibly be a Canadian."
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I assumed that most posters were American. American blog, jumped to conclusions, my bad. It wasn't based on what I thought any American or Canadian would know. (I also assume anyone can use google and come up with the 'right' answer). It was based on my unthinking expectations on Canadian participation on this blog. If you want to impute a greater degree of ignorance or malice to it, then that's up to you.
In terms of "portraying Americans as immune from windbaggery and obtuseness", OK, hyperbole, but the argument seems to be that Americans would never be jerky enough to assume they know things about other countries and tell people from those countries about their (misguided) knowledge, so it's really unfair that others would do this to Americans. I dunno. I know a lot of folks with experiences of encountering American ignoramuses and blowhards (as well as germans, and belgians, and mexicans and fijians or whatever). But look up "Ugly American" in Wikipedia, for example. (Not saying the portrayal is accurate or fair, but the perception is certainly common, and I'm not making it up to be shrill or unkind)
But if that argument is true -- that it happens for Americans more than anyone else, then I speculated on why. Why would folks feel able to tell you things about your own country? Well, the US tend to be a little noticeable, what with being the predominant superpower, largest economy, pervasive media, invading countries every so often etc. Couple that with an unkind and unfair assumption about the overall lack of awareness residing in citizens from your fair nation, based on the public face shown by, say, the Bushies, Ann Coulter, the ease with which Rick Mercer can pull his pranks, generally bad tabloidy-news, the apparent high esteem held for the political opinions of Julia Roberts or Barbra Streisand, and you get a pretty weird and unflattering view of what Americans are like. Sorry. Feel free to fix it any time now. Then the Europeans will quit being so condescending.
And if that's NOT the argument, then it's just venting about a phenomenon that happens to everyone from all nations. And, so, like, so what?
Tim,
A little. Why wouldn't we? A nuclear armed neighbour 10 times our size run by trigger happy morons.
We have 10 times your population, but about (what?) half your size. Even with Alaska, your country is much larger.
And the only thing you Canadians have to worry about with regards to our "triggers" would be an Islamic Terrorist cell setting up camp/operations in Canada with which to fire rockets and mortars at United States cities from behind Canadian lines (ala Hezzbolah in Lebanon.) Israelis didn't put up with that nonsense and neither would we. I doubt that Canada would tolerate that Islamic garbage for more than 10 seconds, so you don't need to worry about our "trigers." Next issue.
You are our largest trading partner. 80% of Canadians live within 200 miles of the border (or something like that, please, no furtive Wikipedia "gotcha" projects).
So? It's cold up there in the Great White North. Of course the majority of your 28,000,000 live close to the US border. I don't see how this is a problem. Next issue.
You are our largest trading partner. We are awash in american culture, products, and tourists.
Our culture and products? Don't buy our stuff. We don't care. We don't point a gun at your head and force you to buy it. You buy it of your own free will. We'll find someone else to sell it to, really.
Don't let our people across your border to spend money in your country if you don't like our tourist dollars. Do you remember what happened to the economy in Toronto in 2003 with SARS? You need us a lot more than we need you.
That said, would you please continue to sell your lumber to us for a small fortune (and your nation is making MAD MONEY off of soft wood lumber sales?) You don't need to import anything, just keep exporting all those trees. We like building things in our country and we really need your lumber.
Thanks so much. Next issue.
We can't just ignore you and hope you go away. To not be able to make observations would take a close mindedness of epic proportions.
No we aren't going anywhere. We live down here, and we are here to stay. But you can ignore us. You don't have to have anything to do with the United States. Just stay on your side of the border and do Canadian things. Don't worry about us. You have nothing to worry about, really.
But if you need help (like when your Prime Minister was nearly attacked and that Islamic terrorist cell tried to blow up the CN Tower) all you have to do is ask. We will be there to help you. But only if you ask for our help. We know when we are not wanted.
Posted by: Paul on October 26, 2006 4:51 PMI don't have to tell you more. You live it. I am just correcting some of your misconceptions about my country.
Unless you guys starting giving sanctuary to Islamic Terroris groups, we aren't going to "invade" you. Don't worry about our "triggers."
Posted by: Paul on October 26, 2006 5:16 PMI don't worry that there's any malice there or an imminent invasion, no one sane would, but as one of our Prime Ministers said, it's like sleeping with an elephant. Just responding to the taunt that, har har, we pay attention to the states. Well, dur. Hard to avoid. Imagine if Mexico had 3 billion people, a huge military and the world's biggest economy.
But nice to learn we have cold winters and lotsa trees. I'll file that under "useful information".
Posted by: Tim H on October 26, 2006 5:27 PMTim H, Canada is a tremendous country, with a great standard of living. I would rather be here than anywhere else in the world, all things considered. But there is this strange attitude among certain Canadians, more prevalent in Ontario than other provinces, towards the US. Basically they have to put the US down to make themselves feel good about their country, and define themselves as Canadian only by referring to negative things about the US rather than positive things about Canada. There is a constant obsession with pointing out the differences, even though they are very minor compared to the differences between Canada and other countries (seriously, what country is more similar to Canada in lifestyle & culture than the US?). They moan & groan about living next to the US, a wealthy, stable democracy, while they plan their US vacations and dream about retiring down south.
This huge chip on their shoulder effects their worldview. Think about how an innocuous comment about how Canadians are convinced there are 52 states set you off. It was a funny but bland observation, and true (try it, ask your friends & family), about on par with saying men don't like asking for directions, not an attack on anyone. But you immediately responded with the ad hominem assaults ("know-it-all hack"), bizarre references to reliable bogeymen Fox News, Anne Coulter, and George Bush, as if they had any relevance to the discussion. It is this kind of narrow, unoriginal, provincial (lowercase-P), mindset, which coupled with the unshakeable belief in moral and intellectual superiority over Americans, which is freakin hilarious! And if this contradiction is pointed out, the usual reaction is similar to your reaction: anger and namecalling.
The US does not have to be bad for Canada to be good, and movies / TV / occasional visits to the US might not necessarily make you more of an expert than the locals. And just because an American might know more about his country than you does not necessarily make him a Fox News-watching, Ann Coulter-reading, George Bush-voting, "ugly american" (by the way, try reading the book, it is amazing how it has been misinterpreted: the "ugly american" is the hero).
Lighten up, and open your mind, you might be surprised with what you discover.
Posted by: mr.x on October 26, 2006 5:50 PMI don't worry that there's any malice there or an imminent invasion, no one sane would...
Then why mention it? Why would you even talk about our "triggers" making you nervous? You have no reason to be bothered by our arms and you know it.
...but as one of our Prime Ministers said, it's like sleeping with an elephant.
Well, you are going to have to explain this term to me because it makes no sense. All I see here is some shrill, envious, rhetoric, used for political purposes. "Sleeping with the Elephant" means absolutely nothing in reality.
We could increase the size of our military to be ten times as big as it is now, if we were spending a percentage of GDP that was equal to what the Soviet Union was spending militarily in the 1970s and 1980s. And if we did, you would have as much to fear from this "elephant" as you do now.
Imagine if Mexico had 3 billion people, a huge military and the world's biggest economy.
I can imagine 3 billion Mexicans very easily, but I am also imagining 2 billion, 900 million of them living here, cutting our lawns, washing our dishes, picking our fruit, and sending their checks back across the Rio Grande to feed their families who are incapable of leaving one of the most corrupt nations on the Earth. Your comparison is an awful one. Your neighbor to the South is nothing like our neighbor to the South. The problems you have with us aren't rooted in Gringos crossing the Canadian border illegally to cut down all your trees for less than the Canadian minimum wage.
More to the point, stop "imagining" things. Live in the real world. In the real world, the United States does not threaten (or even bother) Canada. Any of your angst or worries that you have towards the "elephant" to your South, are irrational, self-inflicted, worries and imagination.
I was merely pointing out how odd it is to be so sensitive to misperceptions about one's own country. The provinces/territories thing was merely meant to point out how crazy it is to get worked up about stuff like that. I wouldn't expect many people other than Canadians to get it right, and even Canadians would likely forget to count Nunavut. "Ugly American" is in the vernacular with a certain meaning, never mind what the plot of the book originally was. And my references to Bush etc. are to the things that drive foreigners' perceptions of the U.S. Like it or not, it's what others often see of you and drive the behaviours that are annoying you. But I never said I thought these examples were representative of the character of all Americans?!?!?
This has become the weirdest most disconnected conversation I've ever had.
But I'll try to remember that Americans have feelings too.
Posted by: Tim H on October 26, 2006 6:04 PMFor the Americans in the audience, the "like sleeping with an elephant" quote is from former prime minister Trudeau, who said this:
"Living next to you is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant: No matter how friendly and even-tempered the beast, one is affected by every twitch and grunt."
It is true, in that Canadians can be tremendously affected by relatively small changes in the US. For example, a cessation of all trade would cause a mild recession in the US, but a severe depression in Canada. The quote is usually misused by certain Canadians to bitch and moan about how bad it is living next to the US, as if having China, Russia, or Nigeria as a neighbor would be better.
The observation by Trudeau is true, and when people use it I respond "Correct, so why are we needlessly and pointlessly trying to piss them off so the Liberals can eke out a few more votes in the greater Toronto area?!?"
You may as well ask why Texan politicians don't try to adopt New York approaches to policy.
Because having a distinct identity is important. Don't take it personally.
Posted by: Tim H on October 26, 2006 6:23 PMBut I'll try to remember that Americans have feelings too.
Tim, you don't have to worry about our feelings. Americans don't generally get their feelings hurt when we hear foreigners and their nasty misconceptions about our country. We've been listening to those misconceptions for decades. We are desensitized to it. What we "Ugly Americans" try to do is understand why others feel the way they do about us, and getting to the root of that problem can take a very "weird" and "disconnected" conversation (your words.) When we finally understand the problem, we work hard to correct those misconceptions.
You stated that you see us as trigger happy. After an exchange of posts, I have come to realize that you aren't bothered by our "trigger happiness" at all, but you thought to mention it initially. This leads me ("an ugly American") to think that something else is bothering you, but you can't (or won't) describe it, which means we Americans can't help you with your "problem" with us.
"Ugly Americans" are not very complex. We are simple people South of the border. From a poker terminology we are an easy read. We have "needs" that must be fulfilled. We "need" to go to work, come home, light up the barbeque, grill some burgers, play with our kids, and watch the ballgame. Simple. We start to flex our military muscles if people threaten those very simple "needs" (like on September 11th.) Canadians don't threaten to hurt our "needs" so they needn't worry about the "elephant."
If you have other REAL problems with us, then you need to let us know what those problems are so that we can adress them (if we are able to.) Being droogish and condescending towards your neighbor to the South without vocalizing your real problems gets you nowhere. It only succeeds in making "Ugly Americans" regard you as infantile and immature. We start to turn a deaf ear to you and tend to ignore you. I don't think you want us to do that.
Posted by: Paul on October 26, 2006 6:26 PMMr X, that you for describing what the "elephant" is with regards to the United States. You are talking about our "economy" and the stranglehold we have on the Canadian economy. I got ya.
Believe me, the last thing in the world the United States wants to do, is shut down trade with Canada. We need your timber. We need your hydro-electric. We need your minds. We need your artists, musicians, and thespians. We are very happy (blessed really) that so many of your talented, educated, and skilled people want to move to our country, live here, and work here. We wouldn't want to do anything to jeapordize that.
Posted by: Paul on October 26, 2006 6:33 PMTim H., we all agree how "crazy it is to get worked up about stuff like that", that is why it is funny that you did. The point of this thread is people's experiences that when an American gets something wrong about Canada/Europe and is corrected by a Canadian/European, the reaction is generally indifferent. Not because Americans are better people, but BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE. I don't know the number of Cantons in Switzerland, and if I guessed wrong I would not be bummed about it because I really don't care.
When a Canadian gets something wrong about the US and is corrected by an American (or by someone he thinks is an American), the reaction is much more negative. Canadians are extremely defensive vis a vis Americans. Look at some of the comments you have made when you thought I was an American and gently poked fun at Canadians:
"know-it-all hack"
"FOX news doing a fair and balanced job? Foreign policy going well? Feel proud of that genius in the White House?" [this reference was not to how others' perceptions were driven, it was a crude way to formulate what you thought would be insulting to an American]
Basically, an overly emotional response. The reason is because the national self-esteem of many Canadians is based on a belief that they are better than the US. If they feel they do not know as much about the US as they think, that calls into question this belief, with the resulting angry response.
As a Canadian, it is embarrassing to see other Canadians act like this. It is a mindset which is easily manipulated by politicians here, unfortunately, much to our detriment.
Plus, just because something is in the vernacular does not make you any less ignorant for stating it if it is wrong. Most people may think the sun revolves around the earth, it does not reflect well on you if you just go with the flow on that one.
"Like it or not, it's what others often see of you and drive the behaviours that are annoying you." - Again, I am not an American, please try to keep up with the conversation.
"This has become the weirdest most disconnected conversation I've ever had." - That is what happens when you don't pay attention.
"But I'll try to remember that Americans have feelings too." - Sharp observation there, keep up the good work.
You may as well ask why Texan politicians don't try to adopt New York approaches to policy.
I was talking about Canadian culture to someone from Venezuela once. He was visiting the States and was wondering why this Canadian did this or why that Canadian said that. I responded by saying that you can't encapsulate "Canadians" in anyway, mostly because Canada is such a large nation. Geographically speaking, there is far too much land and far too few Canadains to look at all Canadians the same. No way. Canadians who live in Victoria are not the least bit concerned with life in Moncton New Brunswick, or vice-versa. They are radically different and diverse across that large country.
Growing up in Boston, I knew a little bit about "French Canadian culture" and Canadians who were residents of Quebec. I didn't know then, but I know now, how very different Canadians from Ontario are from those who live in Quebec. And I know how different Albertans are from Ontario Canadians. And I know how different the "Native Canadians" (from the various tribes) are from everyone else. Everyone is different.
But it is hard to explain those differences to people who live in much smaller countries. They make the mistake of generalizing (the same mistake they make with US citizens) by assuming we are all the same. We aren't. And Canadians aren't.
Posted by: Paul on October 26, 2006 6:47 PM- mr.x
Most people may think the sun revolves around the earth, it does not reflect well on you if you just go with the flow on that one.
Moreso than you think. First off, the only statistic I could find was that 20-25% of Americans believed this.
Second; Now, what do you believe? Take a moment. Say it out loud...
Okay, now can you prove can you prove heliocentrism? It's true that the calculations for predicting star locations if the sun revolves around the earth are far more complex than having the earth revolve around the sun. However outside of one model being much simpler for certain uses as compared to geocentrism, it isn't technically "true."
From wikipedia;
From the point of view of modern science, in particular in light of Einstein's theory of general relativity, there is no absolute frame of reference, only frames which are more or less convenient to use for the purpose at hand. A geocentric frame is useful for everyday activities and most laboratory experiments, but is a less felicitous choice for solar-system mechanics and space travel. While a heliocentric frame is most useful in those cases, galactic and extra-galactic astronomy is easier if the sun is treated as neither stationary nor the center of the universe, but rotating around the center of our galaxy.
link
Mr. x = was this what you were referring to?
According to Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World, perhaps 50% of Americans polled don't know that the earth revolves around the sun and takes a year to do so!
Posted by: Ryan on October 26, 2006 9:44 PMLove how
A nuclear armed neighbour 10 times our size run by trigger happy morons.
is quickly followed by
No need to taunt or get shrill.
Uh-huh. My Dad was born in Toronto. Now I know why he left.
Yes, we apparently have someone posting as “American Negro” and Canada has you.
Honky ass cracker's sense of humor needs work!
Posted by: American Negro on October 26, 2006 10:37 PMActually, the quickest way to shut up the type of Canadian who would presume to argue for a wrong number of states would be, "More than fifty? I've been away from the news for a few days, has Canada joined the Union now?"
Posted by: anony-mouse on October 26, 2006 10:42 PMMr. X,
Actually that was my point. The Canadians could care less. Americans couldn't (as in they don't care at all). Sorry if the phrasing was a bit awkward. But, aren't I right? I know a couple of other people made the same assumption about my comment. That said, it was a joke. All in good fun. What I don't get is why so many Canuks feel so insecure. I mean guys, given your population, you've done remarkably well for yourselves
Posted by: Bill Dalasio on October 26, 2006 11:14 PMPeople from totally different continents don't have a fully accurate understanding of life on the other side!
Am I the only one not to be shock by this.
True, in Britain, many people have impressions of America based on what the American media exports.
True if you live in a densely populated nation of 60 million, it might be hard to appreciate the sheer size of the US and diversity in climate and geography.
However for every Brit who can't tell between NJ and NY or thinks Los Angeles is a short ride from Miami, I can find 20 Americans who think Scotalnd is in England, London is a small town and that Britain has no minorities.
Amongst these posts there is a habit of referring to "Euros" as if Europe has a homgenous population - as oppose to a continent of 30+ sovereign nations, with a multitude of languages and thousands of years of accumulated culure and history.
I get to live on both sides of the Atlantic - trust me, neither has a monopoly on ignorance, stupidity, daft misconceptions or humanity, compassion or courtesy.
Posted by: Rumpole on October 27, 2006 10:43 AMRumpole,
While I see your point, I don't think the comment was intended as a one way street. I'd be shocked if we did know the things you mentioned. I think the point made was that, more than just not knowing one another's facts, we both apply almost completely different sets of presumptions about the world to our conversations. You cite the diversity of European culture as an example, and no doubt we Americans often do overlook such issues (although the cosmopolitanism of the elite media we tend to receive from Europe no doubt plays a role in this). That said, I think many people do the same on the reverse side, underestimating the incredible level of heterogeneity in just one (U.S.) culture.
Posted by: Bill Dalasio on October 27, 2006 11:42 AMBill
I suspect we are on the same wavelength - although I's be a little concerned about anyone who thinks London is a small town!
But I agree with what I think you're saying - there are somethings that you simply wouldn't expect the average American to know of Europe and vice versa.
However, to balance the list of daft questions American's have had or heard from provincial europeans...
On my first trip to the US, I went to a July 4th party with so ostensibly well educated Americans. One of the first questions asked of me... "How do you celebrate July 4th in England?"
I've subsequently been informed by other expats, who have received the same inquiry, that the official answer is: "That's when we have thanksgiving." ;-)
Posted by: Rumpole on October 27, 2006 4:20 PMRumpole: LOL. Perhaps if more people called it by its proper name of Independance Day, that question would be less common.
Posted by: Rob Lyman on October 27, 2006 4:31 PMThat's pretty funny. Actually, I'm almost inclined to wonder if it came from misunderstanding of the brainteaser. The question is "Do they have a fourth of July in England". The answer is "Yes they just don't celebrate it." The trick, however, is that so many associate July 4 with Independence Day that they automatically answer "No".
And strictly speaking isn't the City, per se, actually fairly small?
On my first trip to the US, I went to a July 4th party with so ostensibly well educated Americans. One of the first questions asked of me... "How do you celebrate July 4th in England?"
Then again, I've asked that very question of an English guy just to mess with him. I also asked "oh, you guys play soccer too?".
Posted by: Dan on October 27, 2006 7:23 PMI've never heard an American argue that, "No, there are 27 members of the European Union. Trust me, Switzerland and Norway are members."
Posted by: Evan on October 28, 2006 2:24 AMOh dear, are the Merkins still feeling all unloved and misunderstood by the world? Tut, tut.
Guys would it help if I said that the majority of us don't give a flyings about you, except when we come across a discussion like this, when we feel a vague sense of pity for you and your fragile egos.
Posted by: John on October 28, 2006 6:01 AMGuys would it help if I said that the majority of us don't give a flyings about you
It might, if we cared what you thought.
We're misunderstood -- we're not saying that *bothers* us, just that it's a fact.
Posted by: Dan on October 28, 2006 6:49 AMRumpole: Do you Brits have a day analogous to Independence Day, where you celebrate your national identity? The only thing I can think of is Guy Fawkes day, or is that just an excuse to let off lots of fireworks? (Why do we have only one such day a year?)
It does seem odd that the only distinctively English holiday I can think of is named after a traitor who tried to blow up Parliament. (I know that it commemmorates catching him, but couldn't you have found a different name.)
Posted by: markm on October 28, 2006 7:44 AMBill: what you would know as London covers 600 square miles, has 52 boroughs and a population of 6 - 9 million (depending on who is counting).
2 of the boroughs are cities in their own right - one, rather confusingly, is the "City of London" - which is approximately one square mile and the home of the financial district and is the location of the original Roman city.
Evan - I think you would find it difficult to find an average EU citizen that can name all 25 EU members. You couldn't hold it against an American for not knowing.
markm: Guy Fawkes day isn't actually a holiday, but otherwise, yes, it is an odd thing to celebrate. Their is no UK national day, but the various constituent states have national days - except England.
Its worth keeping in mind that until recently it was illegal to fly flags from your home in most of England. So a national holiday could be a little way off.
Dan - :-))
Posted by: Rumpole on October 30, 2006 12:32 PMFor those who think the US has 52 states, tell them to count the number of stars in a flag.
--------------------
European to tourist from Chicago: Do you have a tommygun back home?
Chicago native: You gotta problem wid dat?