Asymmetrical Information

Well, whaddaya know. Just two or three days ago I was looking at the same code on the checkout card machine at a local grocery and thinking "Hmm, what's that? Either their own proprietary return credit/gift card, or else food stamps. Probably food stamps. But what's the acronym stand for?"

I'd just gotten off a few-month stint as a temp worker in another line of retail, one that involved all sorts of inscrutable acronyms when you were at a register or, indeed, anywhere else in its various computer setups. But "EBT"? E for "electronic"? Or "emergency"? B for "benefit," maybe? T for "transaction"? Beats me.

You could have pulled a Neal Boortz and asked the cashier how you could sign up to use the EBT and get other people to pay for your groceries too.

EBT acronym explanation here.

Obviously white=bad and black=good in polite society, so you could no more imagine taking offense at the checker than you could imagine the words 'stupid, poor black ghetto idiot' running through your own head. But I'm more interested in the edge cases.

Suppose your question was asked by a newly arrived member of the undocumented-American community, and the words 'stupid Mexican migrant idiot' ran through the checker's head. Objectionable?

Suppose the question was asked by a black colleague of yours from the Economist, and the checker thought, 'stupid uppity black idiot' - objectionable?

Please comment on the food stamps post on feministing.

Amy, I second that.

bgates - interesting post, but we all know double standards exist. It just reflects worse on the people who can make racist stereotypes against white people and feel comfortable doing it for whatever reason....mob mentality perhaps.

Wow, that post you linked to is crying out for a proper fisking.

Based on my own personal experience--but, in fairness, the kind of people that I make friends with aren't necessarily the nicest people--it is entirely possible that, as a woman with a job, the supermarket clerk thinks "lazy stupid idiot living on my tax dollars" every time she checks out a food stamp recipient. If the clerk is Jamaican, she probably adds some mental remarks about the inferiority of people who are not of that nationality.

Thanks for the explanation, Dave. I suppose I should've looked it up myself, but in that temp gig I was practically making a game of acronym-guessing, as most of my co-workers didn't know what most of the abbreviations stood for either. I seem to have gotten this one pretty well spot-on.

I didn't read the whole thing at feministe, because it seemed an example of what Peter Wood has called New Anger. "New Anger," Wood said in a Jan. 4 NR piece, "is about flaunting one’s anger as a kind of credential. It is a way of asserting one’s authenticity and, according to its own cultural logic, moving from authenticity to authority. Its essential message is, “I am to be believed and reckoned with because I am angry.”" New Anger is inherently monological--it's a one-man show, not a conversation between two sensible equals who are sharing their best arguments with each other.

JG, please do write something on the feministe piece. I know I've heard it said before that WIC tends towards fattening food. Is there anything to that? Is government cheese making poor people fat?

So working sufficiently to afford enough food without the benefit of food stamps makes you privileged? Does that mean not having enough food is normal?

I think I just went through the looking glass.

I "third" (or is it now "fourth" or "fifth"?) the request for comment on the Feministe piece. Look, face it, you were always going to write about it; linking something top of the entry with a firm denial that you'll comment on it is one of the cheaper sorts of teaser.

Or if that doesn't work: C'mon, you know you WANT to.

Anyway . . . completely OT except to the Feministe piece, did anyone else hear the NPR segment this morning about the insanely cheap and plentiful and good produce to be had at Asian markets? It doesn't tell me anything I don't know, but then I don't write for Feministe.

Briefly: The best and cheapest fresh produce (also lots of imported canned and dried things that will turn up at higher prices at your well-stocked supermarket) can be had at grocers in poor but intensely "ethnic" (read: still-identifiably-immigrant) neighborhoods. The reasons given were these: A lot of immigrants (Chinese featured in the story, but from my experience it might be any of a number of groups) shop daily or nearly so, to pick up what they want for the evening's meal, or the next day's. And they want their produce really fresh, and don't mind if that means it will rot in two days, because in two days it will be long since eaten. And vegetables and fruits that are really ripe, and don't have to be guaranteed edible a week or two hence, aren't only better to eat than the shelf-stable kind, but also cheaper precisely because they aren't shelf-stable. And the ethnic groceries can deal with the shelf-stability issue because they have a lot of customers who just want really fresh produce, and don't even have to be wealthy for the business model to work, because really fresh produce (in the "eat it now, because tomorrow you will probably not want to" sense) is way cheaper. Who knew? Apart from everyone already shopping this way, of course.

Please comment on the food stamps post on feministing.

Amy, I second that.

Wow, that post you linked to is crying out for a proper fisking.

JG, please do write something on the feministe piece.

I "third" (or is it now "fourth" or "fifth"?) the request for comment on the Feministe piece.

Jane may be above engaging in a battle of wits with the unarmed, but I see I'm not the only one who would enjoy seeing her thoroughly excoriate that Feministe post.

Okay, I'll be the heartless bourgois cretin and say it. Jane, the only shame here is that you felt any shame whatsoever at the cashier's look. By what legitimate standard is not being up on the latest intricacies of the dole a bad thing? Think about it this way, if the cashier in front of you had mispronounced a word and someone else in line gave a look of "God, can't this worthless trailer trash even learn basic English?", would you agree with them? Based on everything I've seen you post, I'm guessing not. But, what's the difference? She knows something that you don't have a lot of context to learn about. I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, the entitlement ethos exhibited by the Feministe article flows through to the cashier's stare implying that you're somehow deficient for not knowing enough about foodstamps.

Food stamp trivia:

In Missouri you can buy drinks from gas station soda fountans with food stamps--- as long as you don't put the straw in before purchase.

The straw, you see, means it's just a drink. Strawless they might be taking it home for storage. Or something like that.

She was shocked that The Economist Human Resources dept. hadn't told you more about the use of your stamps?

bgates: You beat me to it!

I didn't think there was anything wrong with you not knowing what EBT meant. But as you went on about how embarrassed you felt and about how familiar you were with the whole food stamps thing in NYC, I thought, wow, you sound exactly like one of those privileged middle class white girls. The sort who try to feel superior to other middle class people by talking about how familiar they are with the plight of the poor.

There's something in the South called "graciousness" or just "grace". It means if someone acts like an idiot, you treat them with respect and pretend that the fauz pas they made was perfectly reasonable. (Which in Jane's case, it actually was.)

All that was demonstrated by the clerk was a lack of graciousness.

Now that all of the checkout data is computerized, the items that can be paid for by food stamps are clearly identified. The amount of cash required for disallowed items is clearly stated.

I suspect that back when the laws were passed, clerks let people sneak toilet paper and soap but made them pay for cigarettes and beer. Now the computer won't let them.

Yes, you will Jane! Once the USDA(with the Mossad helping of course)interrogates you under the ugly glare of their CFL lights, you'll tell all.

I have to agree that shame is not called for, except maybe for the idea (and I am not accusing you) that not knowing about food stamps is a white thing--but it wouldn't shock me if the cashier also thought that such ignorance is solely a white thing, but is bitter about it. The thing is, I'm black and until I read this post, I also never knew what EBT stood for. It furthermore wouldn't have occurred to me to care enough to get upset about my ignorance. I'm not obliged to know about food stamps, and I can't figure out why you thought you were obliged to know either. I can only see caring as a taxpayer if I thought someone was gaming the system, but in the day to day? Not so much.

This post is actually amusing to me, because I once had a white boss who mentioned a few times she had been on welfare before. I wonder how she would have reacted to your question if she had been the check-out girl, because THAT would have been interesting. Personally I think the clerk might have thought you were mocking her or had a chip on her shoulder about the whole food stamp issue. She was just rude in any case, regardless of what her inner thoughts were. Why sweat that?

Incidentally, the majority of welfare recipients are white, not black. Does this change anything?

You know, I finally read the post you linked to. Do please fisk it.

Note Jane's original sentence: But I don't think that I am imagining the words "Stupid, rich white suburban idiot" running through the checker's head as I gathered my groceries and left the store.

This does a fine job of telling us how Jane experienced the moment, but she's said nothing at all in particular about how the checker acted, spoke, or looked at her - in fact, I took it as an implication that the checker's response was rather subtle, and accepted it on those terms. And yet there are commenters responding to it as a literal report of the checker's internal voice, complaining about the double standard of what Jane thinks the checker thought vs. what other hypothetical people might have thought to themselves, and the most recent comment I see calls the checker "just rude". All based on no specific report of anything.

Shamhat, you seem to think that having a computerised checkout stops the cashier from manipulating the way it accepts payment. You clearly have never worked with a computer.

It's very simple, if they have two items, each $1 each. One is allowed to be paid with food stamps, the other is not allowed. You swipe the first item twice. Stock discrepencies are solved by someone else at stocktake time, but as long as the money works out nobody complains.

Gosh, Jane, now you know how George Herbert Walker Bush felt in 1992. I guess y'all should start a "surprised at the supermarket scanner" club, or something.

I have never felt like such a dumb, privileged middle class white girl in my life. Ever.

You may be privileged and middle class, but in this instance it should neither bring shame nor imply stupidity.

I am a middle-class Asian-American. I know little of the ways of the truly rich or truly poor. I had only the vaguest ideas what investment bankers were until college econ classes, and while I had knowledge of the working poor, I didn't know much about the welfare classes until a similar time.

I feel no shame about either of these things - nor do I feel shame about once knowing little about how Scandinavians prepare their fish. They, after all, know little about how we prepare ours.

You, like many whites, seem to feel compelled by guilt to learn about all other cultures, and to diminish your own. This guilt is unwarranted. You are not inherently greater or lesser because you are white, suburban, and well off. You have no more shamed yourself by not knowing what EBT is than a poor person might shame themselves by not knowing what Greenpeace is.

I just don't get it. I have no experience with food stamps. Does that make me bad? Or stupid? I'm white. Does that make my crime even worse?

I used to think you were smart and original, but recently I just don't know...

Ellipsis, I do hope you are aware that what surprised GHW was the ability of second generation scanners to read barcodes regardless of the angle at which they were presented.

Poster Tom above asked if it would make a difference if you knew that most welfare recipients are white. It wouldn't make any difference to me, since I wouldn't be embarrassed in the least to be unfamiliar with technical details of handout distribution. It is, however, not entirely clear whether Tom's information about recipients is accurate. Different sources give different numbers about different people at different times. Here's an example, from the Migration News from the University of California at Davis.

The 1996 welfare reforms and the economic boom have changed the demographic profile of welfare recipients: most US welfare recipients are racial and ethnic minorities. The share of Blacks on the welfare rolls is almost three times their share of US residents and the share of Hispanics in the welfare population is twice their share of US residents. The number of Black families receiving welfare now outnumbers whites and the Hispanic share of the rolls is growing the fastest. Black and Hispanic welfare recipients combined outnumber whites by about 2 to 1. In addition, the remaining caseload is increasingly concentrated in large cities.

The New York Times in July 1998 reported a survey of 15 welfare programs in 14 states and New York City that account for nearly 70 percent of US welfare recipients. In early 1997, Blacks accounted for 37 percent of welfare recipients, and 13 percent of US residents; Hispanics were 22 percent of recipients, and 11 percent of residents. Whites accounted for 35 percent of welfare recipients and 73 percent of US residents. Since peaking in 1994, the number of white families on welfare declined 25 percent, the number of Blacks families fell 17 percent, and the number of Hispanic families dropped nine percent.

The Hispanic share of welfare recipients has almost doubled from 12 percent since 1983. There are several reasons for the rising share of Hispanics in the welfare population. Many live in central cities: 63 percent of Hispanic welfare families lived in central cities, as did 71 percent of Blacks. About 64 percent of Hispanic adults on welfare did not have a high school diploma in March 1994, as did 40 percent of Blacks and 33 percent of whites. About 55 percent of Hispanics on welfare lived in census tracts where 20 percent or more of all residents were poor, as did 64 percent of Blacks and 21 percent of whites.

In my comment above, everything that follows the italicized paragraph is also a quote from the same source. In the preview, they all appeared as an italicized blockquote; after I clicked Post, the last two paragraphs lost that formatting.

Well, I'm a black woman and I was never sure what that button was for. I kinda guessed once but I'd never had it confirmed. I was just never interested enough to ask.

What I find interesting is that you assume that the black cashier assumed everyone knew what it was. How do you know that the black cashier knew what it was before she started working there or do you assume that all black people get food stamps and automatically know what the button is?

What I find funny is that I live in Silicon Valley (one of the highest costs of living in the nation) and a few times I have been stuck behind customers going through the tedious task of using WIC coupons and food stamps (they have to separate things). I've seen the cashiers be rude and unfriendly to them. The kicker is that these customers are never black. They are any number of the "foreigners" who live here (East Indian, Asian, Hispanic) or white. Yeah, I've been pummeled with images of public assistance being a "black thing" but I soon found (decades ago when we moved to a diverse environment) that it definitely wasn't the case.

So, I'm playing violins for the ignorance of the button because, once again, the subtleties of unconscious racism (i.e. assuming the black cashier thought you were rich and stupid or that she expected that EBT was a no-brainer) are more pronounced to me.

By the way, now that you're in Silver Spring, I hope you're using Tyler Cowen's Ethnic Dining Blog as a restaurant guide. Don't know where in SS you are, but Mandalay on Bonifant near Georgia is excellent. He also recommends Roger Miller across the street, but I haven't tried it yet.

You should be proud that you don't know what the EBT button stands for, not ashamed.

And Jane, I almost lost it when you referred to yourself as "privileged" because you don't know the ins and outs of food stamp debt card technology. That's setting the bar a little low, isn't it? I mean, I'm steadily employed, I've never been in a gang, I got married before having children, I drive a car and do not use public transportation -- I must be part of the "privileged" white power elite, like John Kerry and Howard Dean! In fact, I'm from an aristocratic white family -- all of the above was true of my father (he drove a cab), and his father before him (he had a dairy farm and sold insurance once it went under). Privilege is all I know! It's in my blood!

There is nothing wrong with being a middle class white girl. There is something wrong with being a food stamp recipient. There are certainly people, down on their luck, who must resort to food stamps for a short time -- but if I were one of those people I'd be near-suicidal with shame, and would work 25 hours per day to get myself out of my predicament. Do most welfare recipients do this? Nope.

Having a JOB and buying food with money you EARN does not make you "privileged." It makes you a responsible member of society.

It may be that it was all in my head . . . but previously friendly checkout clerks don't usually start staring me down like Gary Cooper at High Noon after I ask a question, nor suddenly slow the pace of bagging my groceries to a glacial, yet somewhat violent, crawl. On the other hand, race makes for insults taken where none are intended; I once had a man I'd been staring at ask me "Never seen a black man in an art museum before?" when what I'd been thinking was, "I must have that tie for my boyfriend!" Needless to say, I still don't know where he got that tie.

But--oh dear, this is awkward--please don't think that I assume all black people are poor, on welfare, or know about such things. I'm well aware that the majority of african americans are solidly middle class. But in all the cities I've lived in, the supermarket checkers are minorities (on the Upper West Side, usually dominicans); they are also, separately, of a different economic class than most of the people they check out. (My current NYC supermarket excepted). It would be foolish in America to pretend that those things are unrelated; racial and non-Asian ethnic minorities are not only more likely to come from parents working crappy, low-paying jobs, but they are also, unless they get quite a lot of education, likely to have a harder time getting into a better income position. I'm pretty sure I'm not imagining the fact that a lot of people in this position resent that, nor that they focus their anger on the more affluent white people who remind them of it--just as I'm sure my friend the database administrator is not imagining it when white sales clerks follow her around the store. If nothing else, there's a rich literature about resentful Irishmen in America to make me feel connected with positional pain.

I have the sense Qusan up there feels she scored some sort of point, but for the life of me I can't figure out what it is. Any guesses?

There is an unbelievably long list of reasons that a person may be on food assistance, not all of which have to do with the ability to work. What I do know is that, as a cashier, it is pretty rare that you care what a person is when they ask you a question. Usually it is irritation because they broke your chain of thought or your system for getting them through and out as fast as you can. If Jane was the only customer in the store, the cashier may have been looking for an opening to extend the conversation. The tedium of babysitting a cash in an empty store is extreme.
As a person living in Canada, I would be curious about such a button. Up here they tend to just give you cash/check when you are in a tough spot. As an ex-cashier, I would be curious to know how working the button fits into the 'get them through and out' system that most cashiers develop.

Jane - If you're living in Silver Spring and were 'upset' by the checker's attitude, have no fear. SHE probably lives in DC and works in Silver srings. 'Attitude' is just a DC thingie. Maybe you need to get over to New Hampshire Ave in Takoma Park and do some real shopping. THERE, you'll really be 'bugg'n.'

Jane - If you're living in Silver Spring and were 'upset' by the checker's attitude, have no fear. SHE probably lives in DC and works in Silver srings. 'Attitude' is just a DC thingie. Maybe you need to get over to New Hampshire Ave in Takoma Park and do some real shopping. THERE, you'll really be a 'bugg'n.'

Ah, the EBT. I live in a small town on the Oregon Coast. Here in Oregon almost all EBT recepients are white or hispanic, permanent benefit types. It's called the Oregon Trail card here and made up to look like a credit card, to avoid the stigma associated with food stamps. I have known two people in this town who ordered and had flown in live maine lobsters (through safeway) paid for on their EBT cards. You see, it's unprocessed food, and therefore legit on the card. My girlfriend is a cashier at a different local market, she sees a hundred people a day who buy all kinds of expensive junk food on the EBT, then pay cash for beer and smokes. She works 40 + hours a week, I'm a fisherman who owns my own boat, and we can never afford the lobster or good steaks. If these people can afford beer and smokes, why should I have to buy their groceries?
It's a huge scam, and welfare abuse in the state of Oregon is widespread and longstanding. The majority of EBT and housing recepients in this (Lincoln) county are not us citizens. I'll vote against any increase in benefits or taxes in this state as long as I live here.

There has been some discussion of "Shame" in the linked comments and a condemnation of how conservatives want to make sure that the very personal element of humiliation is not lost.
When I was a child, my parents were on welfare (for a time) but they did not tell me until many years later. Living in the poorer parts of a California suburb, I could tell that most other people were materially better off. I was highly motivated to better my condition. I'm 49 now and own two companies, etc. The "shame" debate misses the central issue. Welfare is meant to be a "saftey net" not patio furniture.

Christopher hello from Washington County and be safe out there Skipper.

Quite off topic, but "secret asian man" may be my favorite commenter nickname ever. I'll be singing that one all day.

What are food stamps?

I did a web search on EBT and got it immediately. Your only shame was that you didn't think to wait until you got home to ask the question. By the way, as a middle class American Indian who was brought up in an island of relative wealth in a sea of poverty it was always very hard to watch my friend's parents use food stamps (it was simalarly hard on my friends), I find the newest EBT cards quite nifty. Although I am far from the reservations now, I notice that my poor students are going to the store in pairs so that one will have a card only purchase and the other a cash only purchase so no one knows they are on assistance.

Fortunately I know that my students, at least, are headed for a brighter future.

I think I just blew your secret identity, Christopher. E-mail to follow.

Being well off, through one's own or one's family's efforts, is not a privilege; it is a right. You have nothing to feel guilty about. The fact that so many others are worse off is usually the result of decisions those others made themselves.

There are two ways of asking what percentage of the welfare, foodstamp or whatever clients have property P.

One way is to ask what percentage of the existing clients at a given time have property P. That counts a long-term client at a higher weight than a short-term client. I will call this the snapshot.

The other way is to ask what percentage of the new clients that are added to the rolls during a short interval have property P. I will call this the flow.

In my opinion the snapshot is more relevant because people care about the money they have to pay in taxes, and that weights proportionally to time spent on the rolls.

My guess is that people who claim that the majority of clients are white rather than [pick your politically correct group] are using the flow percentages. I actually believe that most people in the flow model are not the stereotypical welfare clients and are in fact not on for very long -- and I don't care very much about these people because they're not costing me too much money. The people who make it a life plan are in fact a problem, although probably one which has been largely solved by the new five year limit.

I understand that each state has a privilege of exempting a percentage of their case load from the five year limit, but I suspect that percentage is a snapshot percentage.

-dk

Being well off, through one's own or one's family's efforts, is not a privilege; it is a right. You have nothing to feel guilty about. The fact that so many others are worse off is usually the result of decisions those others made themselves.

Er, what about poor children? Yeah, they totally made the decision to be born into low-income families.

Or those children without the foresight to realise that the family which is prosperous at birth may not stay that way forever. I grew up white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, and middle-class, with two highly educated parents. But when my mom left her abusive husband and took her three kids with her, she hadn't worked outside the home in twelve years. And while she was requalifying, we were on public assistance, and even for a while afterwards, because it took her a while to find non-casual teaching work, AND because raising three kids with no child support is tough.

She was damn lucky she had a good education, no matter how out-of-date it was. If she'd married before finishing university, or if her parents hadn't been in a position to pay for her to go to university, she probably would've been stuck with some minimum-wage job forever, as she wouldn't have the training to do something better-paid.

I guess my siblings and I should've known better than to get born into that middle-class WASP family, huh? Going through several years of extreme poverty and dependence on 'the system', we just brought that on ourselves.

"That's for food stamps," she said, finally. She was black. I am so white that sometimes, in the early morning, I blind myself in the bathroom mirror. I have never felt like such a dumb, privileged middle class white girl in my life. Ever.

The EXACT same thing happened to me too, but instead of the black cashier being hesitant (by irritation or embarrassment) to answer, my black cashier lady laughingly told me what EBT was.

"What did you think it was?"
"For gift cards?"

That made her laugh even more.

Don't feel guilty.

Ignorance is not the worst thing in life. Remaining stupid, is.

Cheers,
Victoria

You could have pulled a Neal Boortz and asked the cashier how you could sign up to use the EBT and get other people to pay for your groceries too.

LOL!

The epitome of quick thinking (both as blog response, and reality).

Cheers,
Victoria

Hawise,

As an ex-cashier, I would be curious to know how working the button fits into the 'get them through and out' system that most cashiers develop.

Interesting question, that. At first glance, it doesn't look as though the cashier has to do anything. The customer uses a card that goes into the same device used for credit and debit cards, and then punches the "EBT" on the screen where another customer would hit "CREDIT" or "DEBIT." I don't know what follows then — probably the EBT card has some sort of PIN like a debit card, so that it's useless if lost or stolen — but that's the deal on the technological side.

But food stamps can't legally be used to buy all sorts of things, so somehow the cashier has to be alerted to the method of payment. These machines do let you "swipe" your payment card at any time after the previous transaction is closed, but many people don't do this until they see the total. I would guess that EBT users do "swipe" early, & that something on the register's screen alerts the cashier, who can then make sure the purchases are legit.

Jane, when you were in the museum, you should have responded by simply saying "No, I've never seen that incredible TIE before, and I can't take my eyes off it. It's no surprise at all to find a person with the good taste to wear something like that in a place where he can appreciate fine art. Do you mind telling me where you got it, so I can buy one for my boyfriend?" At that point, he'd have two choices:

1. Be a decent person, maybe apologize for assuming your motivation based on your skin color; and based on where the tie came from, either tell you where he bought it, tell you that it was a gift, and he didn't know where it came from, maybe flip it round to see what brand name was on the tag and offer you that much information, and if he really felt bad about how he'd treated you, whip out his cellphone to call the person who gave it to him and ask where it came from;
2. Be an even bigger ass and say something like "What, you think a black man can't afford nice clothes? You think I STOLE it?", or maybe just say nothing at all.

In Reply to "Food stamp trivia:"

"In Missouri you can buy drinks from gas station soda fountans with food stamps--- as long as you don't put the straw in before purchase.

The straw, you see, means it's just a drink. Strawless they might be taking it home for storage. Or something like that."

Here in South Louisiana, we have a similar rule at the drive through daiquiri depots. You drive up order your drinks and they are handed to you in a drink container(stryofoam cup) with the lid taped on and an individually wrapped drinking straw. Of course, food stamps are not accepted for these purchases.

We all say and do things that are innocent and well-intentioned, but misinterpreted as a hostile act (or clueless) by the other party.

More often than not, it can be the other party who has the problem.

At a previous job in 2001, whenever I would email a certain female co-worker, who was a big baseball fan (but who rooted for the Mets), I would often conclude, "Long Live Paul O'Neill!" I thought it was funny, and I was expressing my admiration for one of my favorite Yankees. Later, me and this co-worker (who likes to tease people but is hypersensitive) had a major falling out. When she told me off, she mentioned how writing that in my emails made her uncomfortable. I couldn't believe it! (Had she often said in her emails, "Long Live Mike Piazza!" I wouldn't need a therapist.)

Anyway, you can always shop at the big Safeway on Thayer (?) in downtown Silver Spring.

I used to be a pretty much doctrinaire Libertarian on the food stamp issue.

Then I read "Bell Curve" and changed my mind.

There are some people who through no fault of their own (the decline of reasonable pay for low skill jobs and the inability due to low IQ to get a better paying job) who need help.

The provision of food vouchers (food stamps) is the least intrusive way to help such people. Yeah it creats moral hazards. So do hungry people running throuh the streets (we got a huge dose of socialism due to the depression).

I'd like to reccomend the "Bell Curve" to every one. Eye opening.

Christopher and Rick: Hello, fellow Oregonians. (now in Hoosierland)

You know, I always wondered what the Oregon Trail card was. I figured it was for welfare, but I didn't know.

Thanks, Michelle-"At first glance, it doesn't look as though the cashier has to do anything. The customer uses a card that goes into the same device used for credit and debit cards, and then punches the "EBT" on the screen where another customer would hit "CREDIT" or "DEBIT." I don't know what follows then — probably the EBT card has some sort of PIN like a debit card, so that it's useless if lost or stolen — but that's the deal on the technological side."

That was what was confusing me- if the button is on the cash then it is the cashier's problem and if it is on the debit card reader then it is the customer's problem. I would imagine that the coding for each item is in the programming. At the end of the transaction the reader would inform the customer the amount NOT covered by the EBT and they would use an alternative form of payment for the rest.

As for stupid food payment rules- up here in the North, a donut is taxable, a six-pack of donuts is not; a single-serve cup, can or bottle is taxable, a large bottle, multi-pack or case is not. And they wonder why there is a growing trend to obesity.

Hawise, your Northern state may have silly rules about food taxation (and a college friend who worked at a pharmacy in NJ told amusing tales of the byzantine rules governing what was, and was not, essential in the eyes of the state - toilet tissue, for example, is not), but I can assure you it is better than the Southern solution - we just charge sales tax on everything.

Michelle, don't forget that the store computer has a list of all the purchases and knows which ones are food-stamp legal. The way the purchase would hang together is that the EBT would be debited only for the food-stamp-legal purchases, and the cashier would be instructed to ask the customer for a payment method for the remainder.

-dk

Devilbunny- when I mean North, I mean North of 40, I'm in Canada. I was working as a cashier when they modified our sales tax laws and had to spend most of my time explaining it like some sort of tax lawyer. I can see where a cashier on a bad day might be a little off put by having to do it again and again. The customer who is No. 100 on a long shift may just get the evil eye meant for whoever created the stupid system in the first place.

Hey if you fisk the food stamp article you can call it "Do these food stamps make me look fat?"

dick king: Yes, of course, that must be how it operates. Makes sense. There is of course the case where something comes up to the reg. and doesn't scan, in which case the cashier would need to know whether the item was EBT-legal or not. But even there you'd see nothing more on the customer side than such-and-such EBT, such-and-such not.

Long-time reader, first-time commenter...

Anyway, I know a story that will put yours to shame:

In college, a friend of mine stopped at the grocery store (on the way to the liquor store, since this was in Texas) to buy some mixers for a party she was having. She gets to the checkout and is using her debit card to pay for the stuff. But, knowing that the machine often asks if you want to use it as a debit or credit card, she punches EBT thinking that some of the letters in "debit" had worn off (as they actually tend to do). Needless to say, she was rather embarrassed when the cashier explained what EBT really was.

So anyway, you can take solace that you didn't actually push the button, and that you were buying groceries instead of mixers because as an upper-middle class college student, your parents pay for everything else.

ellipsis

The story about GHW Bush and the scanner is an urban legend. Snopes.com has the full story. Bush was at a trade show, where NCR demoed its latest-and-greatest, a checkout station that could read torn bar codes, weigh produce, and verify signatures. Bush was appropriately impressed. The pool report noted this. A NYTimes writer who wasn't there expanded that into a long riff about Bush being awed by an ordinary scanner.

Yes, Michelle and DK, the current machines are smart enough to do the EBT calculation and then ask for more money. I used to shop at a grocery store near a lot of Section 8 housing, and got one of the cashiers to explain how the Maryland EBT cards worked when they first came out (12 or 15 years ago?). The EBT card looks just like a bankcard, so it was much less embarassing for people to use it.

I believe the current system accepts the EBT card, and then gives a new total for any additional payment required. Since the EBT cards are loaded with a set amount each month, this could be because you used up your "food stamps" as well as bought items not covered.

A similar process needs to be used at stores that accept gift cards, since you might be buying a $50 item with a $25 gift card; I understand this has been a problem for some stores to handle.

I stopped looking for consistency in the food categorization process when I learned that New York State considers mini-marshmallows untaxable food and regular marshmallows taxable candy.

So PJ/Maryland, size does count for some things;)

The Korean groceries nearby (H-mart on Georgia
just south of Randolph, and Korean Korner
at Veirs Mill & Randolph) have far and away the
best selection and quality of fresh fish in the
area. KK's takeaway cook-at-home Bulgogi
is good too. Welcome to the burbs.

M. Simon

The Bell Curve has been destroyed so many times it is not funny.

The book has no scientific credibility.

Stick it in the list of 'books that lie by misinterpreting statistics'.

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/cgi-bin/mt_2005-2/mt-tb.cgi/134

The Monster wrote:

"Jane, when you were in the museum, you should have responded by simply saying "No, I've never seen that incredible TIE before, and I can't take my eyes off it. It's no surprise at all to find a person with the good taste to wear something like that in a place where he can appreciate fine art. Do you mind telling me where you got it, so I can buy one for my boyfriend?" At that point, he'd have two choices:

1. Be a decent person, maybe apologize for assuming your motivation based on your skin color; and based on where the tie came from, either tell you where he bought it, tell you that it was a gift, and he didn't know where it came from, maybe flip it round to see what brand name was on the tag and offer you that much information, and if he really felt bad about how he'd treated you, whip out his cellphone to call the person who gave it to him and ask where it came from;
2. Be an even bigger ass and say something like "What, you think a black man can't afford nice clothes? You think I STOLE it?", or maybe just say nothing at all.

Either way, you'd have done all you could to resolve the situation in a civilized manner. But by failing to explain why you were staring, all you did was validate his prejudice."

No, what she should have said was, "No, you stupid bastard, I was admiring your tie. You in fact are the racist here because you immediately assumed that I was doing something based on MY race. Go f*ck yourself."

Much more satisfying, and it has the advantage of being accurate. Why be civilized to uncivilized people? Maybe the other guy would think a bit it the future before running his piehole.

Comments are Closed.