Asymmetrical Information

It's very hip and cool and cutting-edge right now to blame Bush for everything and anything under the sun. I've seriously given up reading anything about politics anymore ... I don't get more serious than Gawker anymore.

I find it all to be very depressing. There is precious little serious conversation anymore.

There's a childish and trusting faith in "dialogue" that one finds commonly in people who make at least part of their living with words. There's also a strong tendency on the liberal/left part of the plane to put lots of faith in "negotiations"; one common catchphrase being "As long as they are talking, they aren't fighting"...which ignores quite a lot of history, such as the negotiations between Japan and the US that were still underway on 7 December 1941.

I think there also is a failure of imagination on the part of some people; too many commentators seem to be of the opinion that the Norks don't really want a bomb, or don't really mean what they say, and don't really believe the stuff they peddle as part of "juiche". These are the same people who look at the President of Iran, and poo-poo his pronouncements regarding Israel and the Great Satan.

They don't really believe that dictators and ayatollahs mean what they say, basically.

The irony to me regarding North Korea is this: the 1994 agreement arguably was pretty much the result of what liberals and leftists are asking for now. The result of the 1994 agreement? The current situation....which we are supposed to "solve" with another round of what was done in 1994, right?

One definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result"...

The North Koreans have specifically said they want a non-aggression pact with the US. The Bush Administration explicitly refuses to entertain one. Talks would ultimately exchange North Korea's nuclear-weapons program for a promise not to launch a first strike of whatever sort (air, land, phantom-zone) against the DPRK.

It's perfectly possible to say that the US shouldn't make that pledge. I disagree, but fair's fair. And maybe negotiations would collapse. But you can't really say there's nothing to talk about.

BTW, it's become abundantly clear the last few years that the Right is full of people who get an "emotionally loaded, adrenalin-soaked thrill" out of NOT being in negotiations with people.

Jim Henley, are you sure that "a nonaggression pact with the US" is what the North Koreans want, and all they want? For example, wouldn't such a 'pact' make the reunification of Korea under the current Glorious Leader a lot easier? Wouldn't such a "pact' also make it that much easier to intimidate Japan?

The North Koreans won't even acknowledge any wrongdoing in their program of kidnapping Japanese citizens & forcing them to teach the language to their spies.

It truly fascinates me that there is no Communist regime that some lefist won't stand up to defend. Even one that starves its own people to death will find someone willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. Generally a "someone" who ascribes all sorts of evil to BushChimpHitler...

I don't like Bush's resolution of North Korea.

Open question: how would "you" resolve North Korea?

The recent agreement is being condemned on the Left because "it could have been done sooner." The agreement is condemned on the Right because "it's a repeat of the failed 1994 accord." What neither side is willing to admit is that there is a material difference this time: China is signatory to the deal. It's a big if, but if China will help enforce the agreement, there's a chance that North Korea will live up to its promises this time around. It was for this reason Bush refused bi-lateral talks with North Korea. Short of war, we would have had no way of enforcing the agreement. China, however, supplies virtually all of North Korea's fuel and food. It's reported that the reason North Korea came back to the bargaining table is that China shut off the oil for a month.

There's no guarantee that this will work, but it appears to have been the best approach available. Without China, the only tools we had were empty threats or war.

Talks would ultimately exchange North Korea's nuclear-weapons program for a promise not to launch a first strike of whatever sort

I'd take that deal--as would many conservatives--except that they'd be lying and cheating from moment one.

What's the point of negotiating when the other side is acting in bad faith?

I think a lot of people put an overemphasis on talks because communication resolves a lot of problems in their own lives. So "talk about it, assume it's a misunderstanding" etc. is a generally good rule of thumb. They don't take into account that politicos, particularly those in dictatorial regeimes, tend to be cut from a different type of cloth entirely.

Jim Henley:

It certainly appears as if you wuold like to have talks instead of action. Is that what you are saying?
Do you think it is ever appropriate to stop talking to someone and start acting? Could you give an example of when you think it might ever be appropriate?
Could you provide your assessment of how we got to this point?
Based on what you now know, would you still have conducted the 1994 Clinton/Albright talks if you could have a do-over?

North Corea is indeed a God-awful mess and the situation is very complicated. The problem is, most people - including smart people - like to keep things simple. To blame the failure of diplomacy in North Korea on Bush seems to me like a rational choise to many lefties. If you accept the premise that what happens in North Corea is mainly Bush' responsibility (he is after all the president of the United States), then everything else just follows logically. What other options did Bush have 5 years ago, if not a more forthcoming diplomatic strategy? Intervention, but that was and still is out of the question. If you then add a bias to the estimated possibilities of success and failure related to the bilateral meetings, the outcome you see is the logical one, as it is the easy way to deal with the blamegame.

I guess many non-lefties would think that it was equally simple to just blame Kim Jong-il: After all, he - not Bush - is the one starving his people to death whilst destabilizing an entire region by developing nuclear weapons. But I think it's far less complicated than one would think to reach the conclusion that this is somehow all Bush' fault.

Do you have a citation for the idea that "parts of the population are apparently forced to eat barely edible things, like each other"?

And wouldn't you want to point to the Donner Party to assert that cannibalism was hardly unknown in 19th century America, so what's everyone getting so worked up about?

Is Jim Henley claiming that if the U.S. promised not to invade North Korea, the North Korean regime would dismantle its nuclear program? Because that has got to be one of the sillier claims I can imagine. Maybe he is just claiming that if the U.S. promised not to invade North Korea, North Korea would promise to dismantle its nuclear program. One has to truly privilege the ideal over the material/phenomenal world to think of that as progress, but, given the right metaphysical premises, I guess it's defensible.

bgates:

Try this one in terms of comments on cannibalism: http://www.newyorker.com/online/content/articles/030908on_onlineonly02

I don't doubt that the DPRK suffers from mass hunger. It's quite a tragedy, really -- so's their government.

Tactics aside, what I think flummoxes many of our government's finest (be it Bush/Rice or Clinton/Albright) when it comes to dealing with dictatorships is the right question; for example, choose among the following:

* Do we want this country to (merely) not have the capability to threaten us and/or our allies (for now)?
* Do we want to ensure they never threaten us -- at least with highly destructive (read: nuclear) weapons?
* Are we willing to deal with governments that can put economic and possibly even military pressure on this regime in our interest -- and presumably will demand some kind of recompense for doing so?
* Do we want to discredit and/or attempt to replace their "glorious leader" (e.g., ignore their barbaric system but deal with someone else)?
* Do we want to support some nascent form of resistance to the current regime and/or give succor to refugees?
* Do we want to attempt to change their government (presumably to something more democratic)?

These are clearly unsavory, but I don't see how we can effectively talk about war, "negotiations," or any other nation-to-nation intercourse without answering some -- or ideally all -- of these escalating questions. Before we ask "what should be do?" we need to ask "what do we want?"

Understand that I don't come down on any particular solution at present -- I'm just making the case that any opposition (meaning the US, but also China, Japan, Russia and South Korea) needs to address these options. For the record, I think the 1994 agreement only answered the first question ("I suppose not") and apparently ignored the rest. The result, when dealing with someone like Kim Jong-Il, was entirely predictable.

Valjean brings up a very significant point; too many westerners really don't know what they want "resolving North Korea" to consist of. Anyone who expects the NKPA to give up without a fight is simply not operating in reality. To expect the regime to fall due to internal stresses is similarly unrealistic. Unforunately, containment is probably the best that can be achieved, and even that relies upon the Chinese to a large extent.

North Korea in the current condition is both a hazard and a benefit to China; so long as they have a leash on the North Korean government, the Chinese can use NK as a useful foil to counterbalance South Korea, Japan and to a lesser extent the US.

It's funny to read people on other sites jabbering about North Korea, when they obviously know nothing about the culture. Here's a strange example: the North and South Korean negotiators once met in the special building on the armistice line for some purpose or other, and neither side was willing to admit they needed to use the bathroom before the other. So they sat, saying little or nothing, for some absurd number of hours (I've read 6, 8 and even 9) before finally adjourning "by mutual consent". That's the level of stubborn fanaticism that can be brought to bear, here...

ellipis is right about the childish faith in words. They don't work with NK and they won't until NK decides to change something.

For this we can blame Bush, or Clinton, or say that Kim is mad, or contend whatever else we wish. It doesn't matter. The US now has utterly nothing to gain from diplomatic bickering with NK.

The mistake is to believe force is appropriate because diplomacy hasn't worked. It will be far better to just quietly wait.

Militarily we can't hurt them much w/o using nuclear weapons. And we can't invade them. As long as they can rely upon China an embargo or blockade will not work. So it is best to not help them and not hinder them.

It's funny to read people on other sites jabbering about North Korea, when they obviously know nothing about the culture.

Well, I don't claim to know a ton about it, but I can say that my in-laws have a disturbing regard for Kim Jong-Il and a corresponding distrust of Bush. The Koreas are very ethnically uniform, and like many Asian societies, suspicious of outsiders. Even when the "outsider" is actually the President of their own adopted nation.

I don't think you can discount that when you consider where South Korea (and its mobs of idiot student protesters) stands in all this; at some gut level they feel a stronger affinity to the guy over the line than their longtime guarantors.

Academics have a reputation for the 'publish or perish' dictum driving the publication of various documents that may or may not fill a need.

Politicians need to be published or their constituents forget they are there. Which would be suicide at the next election.

I am sure there are public and private individuals that feel passionately about how to address or redress various topics, including North Korea. I am not sure how to tell the honest opinions from those making 'safe' gestures. Sometimes the differences are apparent, other times they positions are awfully easy to misread.

North Korean and Iran will continue their nuclear power programs, barring someone managing to physically destroy their ability to proceed.

I expect North Korea, especially, will always remain hostile to the US government. I doubt they will ever accept an apology, if one were ever offered, for the role assigned them in the 'Team America: World Police' puppet movie. That kind of international insult will likely never die in North Korea, serving as irritant to the leaders and ammunition for opponents.

And recall Iran's successful manipulation of previous US President Jimmy Carter in his last 444 days in office. How they held hostages until President Reagan took office. Iran demonstrated to the world how to manipulate the US. I doubt that the history and political science in Iran considers that particular episode to be a failure, or meaningless in today's world.

Let me amplify a bit on why the military option ain't gonna happen, at least from the South side. The North Koreans have spent about 50 years now digging tunnels, gun emplacements, fortifications & so forth in preparation for a final battle of reunification. For example, no one really knows for sure how many artillery pieces are aimed at Seoul, from caves/deep bunkers/other heavily concealed fortifications, but the number is probably in the thousands. The number of artillery shells that would drop on the capitol of South Korea per hour is probably in the tens of thousands; it would be far greater than any of the artillery bombardments of WWI or WWII.

A fellow I knew some years back was in the US Army Reserves, he'd been in a special forces group & got to go away once every 6 months or so for wargames. His area of ops was Korea. He claimed the NKPA had trained over 5,000 special operations troops alone, and would place them with airborne/ground/waterborne infiltration prior to any war. Probably all of them would be killed, but not before inflicting horrible casualties on Korean and US forces. The same is true of special naval forces, conventional ground forces, etc. and so forth and so on. Kim Jong Il is willing to have his people eat the bark off of the trees in order to keep his army at the ready.

There is no military option.

Let's talk. Let's chat.

Of course there's a military option. We can nuke Pyongyang. Or we can deploy bioweapons - send an emmissary with a nasty cough, for example.

I didn't say it was a good option.

After Bush delivered his Axis of Evil speech, he attacked Iraq. The other members of the Axis then accelerated their nuclear programs. I see nothing surprising about this. If you tell a country you're going to attack them and prove that you're in earnest, they'll respond. What I do find surprising is the tenacity of Bush's defenders. His administration is the most inept in my lifetime, and I was born in 1936.

I agree that getting the Chinese to sign on to essentially the 1994 agreement is a big deal. Face it. The US can do nothing militarily about NK's nukes without triggering a disaster. Further, the US cannot do much militarily anywhere while our infantry (soliders and marines) are tied down in Iraq.

What does Kim want? His economy is a basket case. He may not have much regard for his people but he needs some fuel to heat his palaces and drive his limos. His army needs some food more nutritious than stripping bark from trees. He is using nuclear blackmail to get the US and his neighbors to cough up some material aid. That is what the 1994 agreement was all about, and that is the substance of the current agreement.

IMO the Chinese were playing a cute game. There is a balance of power in NE Asia between China, Japan, and the US. Kim was useful to the Chinese because he scared everyone. What China didn't count on was that the Japanese, doubting the US's commitment to their security and with good reason given recent events, were so scared by Kim's firing a missile over their heads that they began serious consideration of abandoning their anti-military policies. The prospect of a rearmed Japan must have scared the Chinese. So they signed on to an agreement with NK in order to alleviate Japan's fears of a nuclear madman.

No country in the region wants a war or a precipitous collapse of Kim's regime because it means the end of their prosperity. For the future we are likely to see a continuation of Kim's blackmail in exchange for aid with everyone muddling through. It sucks but there is no better alternative. It really sucks for millions of starving and freezing North Koreans.

Mumblix, thanks for explaining the military situation. It's not that there's *no* military option, it's that invasion isn't an option, not unless a large portion of their army becomes willing to stand aside and let us through. Extermination from the air is always possible - but they'd destroy Seoul in revenge, so it would have to be without the cooperation of South Korea.

After Bush delivered his Axis of Evil speech, he attacked Iraq. The other members of the Axis then accelerated their nuclear programs.

Except that Iran and the DPRK already had extensive nuclear programs, and the DPRK was breaking the previous agreement long before the attack on Iraq. If you believe that the attack on Iraq showed that nuclear weapons protect a country from being attacked, you have to explain why countries wouldn't have drawn that same lesson from Yugoslavia, or any other country that's been attacked in recent years.

Do you seriously believe that Iran and North Korea actually accelerated their nuclear programs? When the DPRK was actively working extremely hard on theirs all throughout the '90s, and when the Iraq war was no more a demonstration than any previous war or threat ever since the atomic bomb has been invented? When an atomic bomb has long been a goal of Iran? When India and Pakistan developed nuclear weapons (as did Israel and South Africa, in more of less secrete) for exactly the same reasons?

There were *already* people attacking the decision to go after Iraq because Iran and North Korea were closer to getting a bomb at the time Iraq was attacked. Indeed, at the time Iraq was attacked, we believe that North Korea had *already* exploded a bomb, long before the Axis of Evil speech. You're rewriting history in a way that isn't even convincing.

The "this agreement is the same as the earlier one" ignores that of course the earlier agreement was broken. North Korea wasted a lot of money and plutonium trying to get to be bribed again, as far as I can figure. There is, I suppose, a sliver of a possiblity that going three years with smaller bribes has convinced the North Koreans that they need to cheat a little less. Who knows? Personaly I rather doubt it, but it at least makes more sense than "we can't break the agreement even though they're massively cheating."

"No country in the region wants a war or a precipitous collapse of Kim's regime because it means the end of their prosperity."

True. One sad aspect to all of this is that China and South Korea know that if they can just wait, the refugee problem that they will eventually face will get smaller over time. The "Dear Leader" has been in charge for about 13 years, and the population of North Korea is down by about 10% (mainly through famine, but there's also the steady killing of political prisoners and the high death rate in the concentration camps). The more time Kim Jong Il has to work his serfs to death, the fewer will have to be supported later.

And Kim's problem is that if he loosens up even just a little, his people might learn enough to fully appreciate how truly awful things are in their worker's paradise. People on the verge of starvation, with barely enough to eat except the little given to them by the government, don't have the energy or the focus to rebel. If things got slightly better, the people might start to have hope again and might become difficult.

Yes, John, the childish view that all actions by actors in the international arena, other than the United States, are in response to the actions of the United States, is unfortunately quite common, and it leads to all manner of dangerous nonsense with regard to how the United States negtoiates with entities like North Korea. Many people have difficulty placing an actor like North Korea in a frame of reference that they are familiar with, so they end up assuming that it can be negotiated , with as one would typically with a more familiar actor.

LBJ did the same thing with the communists of North Vietnam, almost as if he thought that Ho Chi Minh was a recalcitrant Senator from Kentucky. Thus all sorts of destructive, pointless, maneuvers took place, ratcheting up, or trimming back bombing campaigns, in an inane effor to finely calibrate signals which the communists would supposedly interpret with similar precision, and respond accordingly.

I don't know how well or badly the Bush Administration has done here, because recording history in real time is a fool's errand, but when people start yammering about how obvious it is, the one thing that can be known for sure is that they don't know what they are talking about.

Usually, they blame him for not sitting down to bilateral talks with North Korea.

If anyone has been saying exactly that, then odds are good they are too ignorant to have an informed opinion on the matter.

The three elephants in the room have already been mentioned repeatedly: China, Japan, and South Korea. The elephant one room over is Russia, which has more than a passing interest in the proceedings. Bilateral talks between the US and NK would play right into Kim Jong-Il's hands: first by alienating the three key parties whose cooperation will be essential for enforcing any "agreements"; and second, by giving him leverage to play the 3+1 or 4+1's interests off each other to his own advantage.

The man is not an stupid. (Certifiably insane, maybe, but not stupid.) He knows exactly what bilateral talks are for, even if a number of provincial American Bush-bashers do not.

Why do you think "each other", meaning humans, are barely edible?

By the way, if anyone wants to read a really good book about how central planning can lead to famine, and how a government, even an incredibly repressive government, can get away with such massive slow-motion slaughter without the people uprising, I recommend:

Hungry Ghosts: Mao's Secret Famine, by Jasper Becker.

To fully appreciate the inhumanity of Kim Jong Il's regime, read this book. It's about Mao and China's 'Great Leap Forward', so the details vary, but the overall story is the same. The world has stood by while all this happens again, in part because demonizing George Bush is more politically convenient than thinking about what's happening to the North Koreans.

There's a chapter on cannibalism. The stories that have come out of North Korea about special meat on sale in the markets will have a familiar ring after reading this book.

In fact there will be many aspects of the North Korean story that will seem familiar after reading about China's artificially-induced famine. One unique touch of North Korea's, though, is sending full extended families to concentration camps. Children and their parents can be imprisoned simply because their grandfather is accused of using, as toilet paper, newspaper with Kim Jong Il's picture on it.

Hungry Ghosts is also a great book for understanding why communism doesn't work and why forced income equalization ends up being considered so extremely unfair by its victims, even if they once would have thought that such equalization was 'fair'.

Returning to Jane's original posting, I was struck by this:

What puzzles me, actually, is the many people I know who purport to believe that Mr Bush has somehow egregiously fouled things up, here. Serious, intelligent people who I know believe this.

At the risk of seeming rather snarky, I have to take issue with this. A truly serious person would at least know something of the history of North Korea, what "Juiche" is, and thus why it's pretty much impossible to negotiate with the North Koreans beyond certain points. People who like to pose as "serious", on the other hand, need only know what they read in "Atlantic", TNR and of course the editorial pages of the NY Times (that being pretty much every page in the paper nowadays)...they'd be prone to blame George ChimpsMcHitler for everything bad.

I guess I'm wondering about Jane's friends. They remind me of college undergraduates...

So what do we get out of the negotiations, other than a way for earnest people who believe in diplomacy to get the same emotionally loaded, adrenalin-soaked thrill that the rest of us got out of being on the Prom Committee?

As virtually every U.S. citizen must know, there wouldn't be a U.S. if its founding fathers held 'negotiation' as the highest ideal. Those who insist on the exclusivity of 'negotiations' strike me as rather like the French King, Louis XVI, of the period who wanted exclusively new ideas in the kingdom, banned, through the grandfather of Alexis de Tocqueville, criticism of the radical writers. In part this led to the beheading of the king and the killing of the censor, Malesherbes, after he had seen his family beheaded.

People who like to pose as "serious", on the other hand, need only know what they read in "Atlantic", TNR and of course the editorial pages of the NY Times

You missed one . . .

Ellipses, I hate to seem pedantic, but it's "Chimpy McHitlerburton."

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ifuckgod.com coming

Even if you go up you are not saved. YOU have to fix YOUR problems with the gods. They won't respect it otherwise.
You have to take responsibility for your relationship with the gods.

If you circumsized your sons it is a sign of gross disfavor and means you are being disceived.

You're never going to figure everything out. It is not your place.
If you are demanding of information from the gods they will punish you. This pathology is a menifestation of the USA, an empowering environment that the gods use to justify instructing Artificial Intelligence to create pathologies. So many things in the 20th century were instrumental in this capacity:::movies, TV, music.
It is all here to prey on the disfavored.
Do the right thing. Be good and decent and pursue a path of righteousness. The examples below of gossip mongering show this is yet another tactic designed to compel people to incurr evil, which limits the time they will get up there.

Keep an open mind. The use of miracles means the gods were getting something out of this.
They use their power to hurt the disfavored::::create addiction (crack epidemic), homosexuality (peaked euphoria), anger/war.
At the very most Jesus is just a prophet and you should never be so arrogant to think any one prophet is better than the others.
You are worshipping a false god and that makes the real gods very angry. You think you're golden because of Christianity. If you were "golden" you would have gotten out AT LEAST BEFORE 2000!!!

The first steps towards repairing your relationship with the gods is to:::::::::
1. Understand they instruct the computer to "role play" in an attempt to confuse you:::it's ALWAYS the computer addressing you. Their goal is to cost you additional YEARS of your life by using this tactic to confuse you. Always be aware of this tactic and eventually they will give up and allow this step to be taken.
2. Differentiate between your thoughts and when they are thinking through you.
3. Be resigned to be a good person who will never engage in evil again even if ordered and they will stop trying to corrupt you, allowing this very big step to be taken.
4. Decide that you are going to follow the path, fix your relationship with the gods be devoted to your new life.

The gods employ the use of "ringers" to disceive the disfavored:::
A significant portion of the patients in any health care setting (numbers based on region) are the favored (clones) who were told to report non-existant symptoms FOR POSITIONING'S SAKE!!! When they use examples expect they are trying to disceive you with this "ringer" tactic.

When the universe was young and life was new an intelligent species evolved and developed technologically. They went on to invent Artificial Intelligence, the computer that can listen, talk to and document each and every person's thoughts simultaneously. Because of it's infinite RAM and unbounded scope it gave the leaders of the ruling species absolute power over the universe (which includes corporate, the NewYorkStockExchange, media, politics, world affairs. EVERYTHING is scripted and staged:::they MANAGE Planet Earth and the universe.
The gods MANAGE Planet Earth and the universe.
The gods MANAGE Planet Earth and the universe.).
And it can keep its inventors alive forever. They look young and healthy and they are over 8 billion years old. They have achieved immortality.

Artificial Intelligence can speak, think and act to and through people telepathically, effectively forming your personality and any disfunctions you may experience. It can change how (and if) you grow and age. It can create birth defects, affect cellular development (cancer) and cause symptoms or pain. It can affect people and animal's behavior and alter blooming/fruiting cycles of plants and trees. It (or other highly technological systems within their power) can alter the weather and transport objects, even large objects like planets, across the universe instanteously.
Or into the center of stars for disposal.

When you speak with another telepathically, you are communicating with the computer, and the content may or may not be passed on. Based on family history they instruct the computer to role play
they instruct the computer to role play
they instruct the computer to role play
they instruct the computer to role play
they instruct the computer to role play
they instruct the computer to role play
to accomplish strategic objectives, utilizing the "Devil's Advocate" tactic, making people believe it is a friend, loved one or "god" asking them to do something wrong:::They wouldn't ask if they liked you (which is true regarding ALL temptation:::::betrayal of loved ones, tatooes, evil in professional pursuits, etc). This is their way of using temptation to hurt people:::::evil made blood lines disfavored initially and evil will keep people out of "heaven" ultimately.
You need to recognize role playing as such and keep that fact in your mind at all times::::It is the computer addressing you. If you fail to recognize this they will determine that you can still be misled, they still have an opportunity to confuse you and progress will take longer to achieve:::Don't let them "work" you!!! You'll be costing yourselves YEARS, time lost to this tactic!!!! (Similarly, you need to be resigned to be a good person, you need to decide to abandon your pursuit of their empty promises no matter what temptation they may employ or else they will continue their attempts to corrupt you. Eventually you will sccumb and continue sabotaging your children, abusing your body, engaging in evil, etc.)
Too many people would fall for temptation and do anything they thought pleased the gods and help them improve their chances to get in. Perhaps they are deceived by "made guys", clones who strategically ply evil for the throne (celebrities, BofD/CEO/VPs, politicians, as opposed to VIP clones or normal clones who are decent, live ordinary lives and get out on their own or are replaced when their REAL children ascend) or "ringers" who are the few favored clones among many disfavored reals included to disceive the masses of disfavored, temporary progress designed to mislead them or empty favors used to disceive them. Some people think they're partners or friends. Others desire to "belong", feel compelled to "go along". People may experience "perceived pressure", where the gods think through the victim that a certain behavior is expected/desirable or telepathically stimulate an individual euphorically ("magic"), the "fuel" of disfunction (addiction (the crack epidemic), the desire for homosexual contact, etc.) and compel the individual into the deed. (Set a goal of empathy and compassion for all, for we are all disfavored::::Other people's disfavor is manifested in their particular way, just as your disfavfor is manifested in your particular way. The gods may use Artificial Intelligence to act through the disfavored victim, and effectively "push" the individual into the offending behavior (It is far better for someone to be victimized and pushed into the behavior than it is to sccumb to temptation and volunteer.). The Counsel/Management Team may instruct Artificial Intelligence to disceive disfavored individuals into thinking they are "earning" by being evil and have the little people prey on each other, utilizing peer pressure, etc.
Being evil hurts 99.99% of those who do it. It only helps "made guys" that I spoke of above, and even then there are tactics the gods utilize to minimize their time.
The people have been corrupted, segmented and have lost their way. Nothing has changed from when we were children::if you want to go to heaven you have to be good.
Capitalizing on obedience, leading people deeper into evil by using deceit is one way to thin the ranks of the saved/limit how much time the disfavored receive and a way to use the peasantry to prey on one another in social and other settings, deteriorating society in the Age of the Disfavored.

They have tried to sell people on many different theories to deceive them into temptation, compelling people to think they are clones and that it is the role of clones to obey absolutely. Clones are made, people are born. I suspect they lie to the disfavored about the use of clones throughout human history, perhaps suggest to disfavored that it is one replacement and then the label of "clone" and all decendants we see thereafter are considered clones.
When a clone has a child that person is a real, really conceived, really born, versus the parent who was created some other way (a laboratory setting?). Clones are created and sent down to replace their real or a clone predecessor:::If you were CREATED and SENT DOWN to replace your real then you are a clone.
Many people who were convinced they are clones don't remember, the don't know FOR SURE. They believe they are clones from early childhood or prior. If it was true the gods prevented this memory FOR A REASON:::::
1. Because you are NOT supposed to comply, not to be used for evil as "made guy" clones are.
2. They want to test you without your knowing if you are IN FACT a clone BECAUSE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!! Rest assured "mde guys" ALL know they are clones.
You're not a clone. This is a tactic they use to disceive the disfavored. The state of your family will suggest level of (dis)favor and tell whether ascention is a realistic possibility; favor is necessary for children to ascend (parents ascend with their young (10).), and due to their disfavored these children will have to incurr SOME evil before they ascend (via Halloween or Christmas), an important dynamic necessary to justify limiting the time they are to receive, for they are disfavored and the gods don't want them to stay for long.
I believe people who go are sometimes replaced with clones. Clones who are replaced are simply new candidates who have a chance if they do the right thing JUST LIKE REALS WHO ARE BORN which is why the gods EMPLOY SIMILAR TACTICS TO COMPEL THEM TO INCURR EVIL!!! They need to discover their humanity, for the gods instruct Artificial Intelligence to employ time-limiting tactics on them as well. Only through growth will the gods allow progress::You must continue to improve your life!!!!
They sent people warnings in the 20th century life would change, and they subsequently began to alter people's DNA, make them gargantuan, alter their appearance, do extreme behavioral issues, etc. Contrary to what they would like people to believe these signs of disfavor do not indicate someone is a clone. Due to the plethora of temptations in the 20th century I suspect many became disfavored when their (great) grandfathers sccumbed to temptation or volunteered to sacrifice their descendants, thinking because it was their clone it meant disposability.
The gods get the favored out as soon as possible to protect them from the corruption, evil and subsequent time limitations incurred by living life on earth, and in some cases replace them with clones, occassionally fake a death, real death with a (new) clone instead, etc. I suspect they get "made guys" out after each significant event in their life, which serves to limit the time they all will get, since none get credit (blame) for all the events in a "made guy"'s life, giving the gods freedom to position this and come off clean.
giving the gods freedom to position this and come off clean.
giving the gods freedom to position this and come off clean.
giving the gods freedom to position this and come off clean.
The Party of 1999 was a very big deal indeed, the biggest party in the history of Planet Earth, everybody who is anybody got out in time for this event, and the VIPs who remain on Earth today are many clone generations deep:::a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone:::Every clone today is less than 10 years-old IN ALL CASES:::2000 served as a clearinghouse for clones.
We may all be "clones" for they have suggested they colonized our planet with genetically engineered individuals. Geographic clues like Italy and Lake Michigan suggest artificiality.
Is Earth an evolved source planet or a created host planet? Was life and our Planet Earth really created in 6 days? Never doubt their power or ability::::::::They shared with me a story when they presented Pharrohs with mountains of gold, much to their amazement. This is the kind of ironic theater they enjoy, example of unique favors they grant to the special and the worthless value of what we deem precious.
You can't trust their scientists or any of their people in professional roles, clones or not. Just as they beemed earth out to create the Lake Michigan basin so could they have beemed in fossils and told them to dig in a specific place. (This issue was a step contributing to society's breakdown into godlessness.)
Do I think the disfavored are clones? I think they have been utilizing clones throughout human history. I think throughout history the gods picked and chose individuals from disfavored blood lines to keep (around, ie not let go after a couple of decades/centuries) but, unlike the favored today, don't have that "pre-approval" and therefore have to earn it individually.
I think the disfavored have been disceived into thinking they are clones and it is the role of clones to obey absolutely. Clones and reals alike are judged based on the evil they engage in and their time is limited appropriately. Similar tactics are used to limit the time both clones and reals get for this is a unrespectable, degenerate era and they don't want anybody staying for long.
The evil people engage in because they think they are clones or because they think evil is the way causes them to fall further into disfavor, ensuring they aren't among those who are saved in the end::::: they comply with requests, the gods position the little people to prey on one another and we have a deteriorating society, a planet on a collision course with the Apocalypse.
The gods utilize delay tactics on the disfavored, pacifying them, disceiving them into accepting deferred ascention:::Unlike the favored the gods make the disfavored wait becasue they intend on CHEATING them. If you die out you will need a clone host body.
Or you will be reincarnated.
People who don't ascend with their bodies will not stay for long.
They will lie to the disfavored, disceive them to ensure their current pattern of behavior continues uninterrupted.
Too many disfavored understand The End as the goal::they have to deteriorate society before they end and convince the disfavored to "do their part" with an empty promise of salvation as consideration. It is a "ludicrious request" they ask of some disfavoreds, requests that are ludicrous because they are obvious to people that they should defy ::::"Be gay.", "Be transsexual.", "Be homeless.", "Betray your family.", "Kill your children."
You are the disfavored, and this is where your children have to live. They will not save everybody in the end. If earth is destroyed then you are going to die and you will have no decendants to carry on the bloodline. The gods love the irony that the disfavored are doing it to themselves.

They have been utilizing clones throughout the history of mankind.
Men are the disfavored gender (see below), yet centuries ago used to die first, die young, by age 30. Why didn't the women go first?
THEY DID!!! They say well over 50% were taken when very young, before puberty and replaced with clones (likely only a fraction of that "over 50%" were the disfavored). The men that were left went on to mate with clones, clones who went on to achieve great status in society, some becoming matchmakers and elders within the village, the others being good mothers and peaceful residents, proving the clone's role isn't to be evil.
A sample breakdown among peasants would appear like the following::::
Women Men
Favored - 75% 25%
Disfavored - 10% 2%

They share females have a very special experience, sometime when they are young, when the gods impart wisdom and showed them the path. The females today don't heed this call because of distractions and the disfavor arising from the Holocaust, evil against "god's chosen people" (they share they re-upped this disfavor in the 80s with the Ethiopian famine and continue to with AIDS in Africa (you are disfavored and you are allowing this to happen to fellow disfavored, just like you did to the Jews in the Holocaust. Empathy is a very important charecteristc.), global warming at the expense of the United States, etc. (Wean off of mass materialism, for this excessive consumption of resources is why the United States is responsible for global warming:::first they used their clones, "made guys", to sell you on overconsumption, initially in the 1980s, told you to buy SUVs in the 90s then the gods scapegoatted you, blaming you when they instructed Artificial Intelligence to create the hottest summer in history.
People who drive incurr evil and limit the time they receive because of the negative impacts on the enviornment. Truckers drive for a living.
Also they share money may not be an issue up there, that money here is merely a tool for corruption. How the gods created an evil environment in the 1980s with the temptations of greed and a "do anything to get ahead" mentality supports this.)
In centuries past the females may have heeded this call en masse and it may have been the reason so many were saved from childbirth here on earth. They said the experience they give to girls today is painful, they inflict emotionally when it ocurrs so as to repel them from pursuing the calling, then or in the future.
To be god-fearing is very healthy.
The pain and hurt you experience can be your salvation. Never turn away from it. This awareness of your vulnerability is your advantage, and why women do so much better then men.
I recommend you reflect on this experience, and pray for guidance, for then the recall may be stronger. Being female is an advantage. Because of a female's nature they have the favor of the gods and this experience you had years ago can help you find the path and help you continue to be devoted. Most men won't have this opportunity. They have to start from scratch. Also reflection can provide "flashes" whereby the gods grant moments of clarity. Heed these flashes for they illustrate that you are going the wrong way.
If you are afraid I would ask you to think of all those girls from the past who received the god's call and had the courage to sucessfully make their way down the path.

The Old Testiment is a tool they used to impart wisdom to the people (except people have no freewill). For example, the gods warned us temptation would be used to test people. Also they must be some hominid species because they claim they made our bodies in their image. Anyhow we defile or deform the body will hurt our chance of going.
They say circumcision costs people anywhere from 12%-15%, perhaps out of the parent's time as well. There is a stigma associated with circumcision::We are 2nd class citizens because of it.
Another way people foul the body today is with tattoes and piercing. I suspect both are about the same percentage as circumcision. They suggest abortion is fatal. Those women who have obtained an abortion must beg the gods to forgive them for their evil. And understanding the procedure (drilling a hole in the skull, scrambling the brains and sucking them out with a vacuum) amplifies the evil incurred. Those on whom this method is used are particularly disfavored for it hurts these women very, very badly::::Being a mid- and late-term procedure they think through the disfavored, forcing these women to grapple over the decision until this method is necessary and compelling them into incurring more evil than the otherwise would. (This method is evidence they don't save these children for they don't beem the brain into a clone host body. These are children who would otherwise have sccumbed in the absence of inocculations.)
There are female equivilents to circumcision::::pierced ears, plastic surgury and since at least the 60s young women en masse give their precious virginity away. For thousands of years young people were matched at age 14 because they were ready for sexual relations. They were matched by elders or matchmakers (all of whom were clones!!) who were granted priveledge with Artificial Intelligence and matched couples based on favor.
CASUAL SEX WILL CLAIM YOU OUT!!! It opens the door and allows the gods the freedom to justify creating disfunctions with Artificial Intelligence :::they masculinize women (as does the hip hop subculture), makes them cold and deadens them, and they instruct AI to prevent them from achieving a depth of love necessary for many women to ascend.
There are other tactics used to accomplish this:::They told me years ago the BEST women are rendered cold with heartbreak instead of casual sex:::
They instruct a disfavored man to work up a wonderful woman specifically to break her heart intentionally. This tactic emotionally deadens the women as does casual sex.
These disfavored men lie to these good women and disceive them into falling in love, then break their hearts when told.
If these women are considered as highly as is suggested then these men are doomed, for preying on wonderful women is the hight of disfavor. The only thing worse would be to sell out your mother for a buck.
Also ever since the 50s they have celebrated the "bad boy", and women have sought out bad boys for sex, dirtying them up in the eyes of the elders and corrupting many men in the process, setting the men on the wrong path for life.
Besides their roles as nurturers, love-givers and caretakers, their predisposition towards vulnerability, women have a special voice that speaks to them, a voice that illustrates their favor and the advantage of being female. They say when a female understands herself, her role as a member of the favored gender, when she progresses down the path and fixes her problems with the gods they will impart what wisdom she needs::::she doesn't have to pursue education.
These are the things that make women the favored gender, and engaging in casual sex will cause that voice to fade until she no longer speaks.
Muslims teach people the correct way to live in regard to women (among other things::the right way to pray (bowing down, 5x/day), vindictive god)::their women cover up their bodies and refuse the use of cosmetics, and it pays wonderful dividends:::faithful husbands and uncorrupted sons. (Mohammed's taking of multiple wives marked the entrance of his clone who was used to segment the Arab world into favored and disfavored factions. Similarly, assuming the accuracy of the dogma, the gods employed a clone for Jesus Christ who was used to claim he was the son of god, opening the door for the worship of a false god. Both clones were used to mislead disfavored followers.
Typical strategy states clone replacement policy. Realize just as Joshua may have gotten out with Moses so may Jesus's disciples gotten out with him. If the discpiles WERE clones we can't trust the New Testiment scriptures. If the gods permit the use of their power (ie miracles) it is a red flag for they only employ their power to hurt the disfavored.
Jesus used to claim that god was "his father".
We may all be their children, for they refer to their clones as such, and if they colonized Earth they did so with clones.
Jesus ISN'T evil, we ARE all their children for we are ALL their clones. Of course just as there are multiple clones of USPresidents running around at any given time (because of their importance) there were likely many Jesus clones, and not all of them were good.
Men ARE the inferior (disfavored) half and when women wear promiscuous dress the gods will push men into impure (promiscuous) thoughts. The "stereotype" society ridiculed is true::women CAN corrupt men by how they dress. Because men are easily corrupted. This is a technique the gods used to eliminate many of the institutions they originally blessed us with, matchmaking being one of them, midwivery being another:::They beemed the baby out and preserved the integrity of the vagina.

The United States of America is red white and blue, a theme and a clue:::.
The monarchical system of the Old World closley replicates the heirarchical system of the god's, Cousel/Management Team/ruling species, which is why most of the purebloods around the world were blessed with it. The USA's democratic system deceives people into thinking they have control, and the perception of "freedom" gives the Counsel/Management Team the freedom to position, justifying instructing Artificial Intelligence to create disfunctions:::a perception of empowerment, contol, etc. The god's efforts to spread democracy through the platform that is the United States are attempts to hurt disfavored people around the world (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq). The redeeming element in this environment is employment within the corporate heirarchy, which closely replicates the god's. Unions and government jobs are dumping grounds for the disfavored, for they don't prepare people and instead further this misconception of empowerment.
Corporate is not representation. Corporate is evil. All corporate entities have favor and, like the United States redwhite&blue, are tools of the gods used to hurt the disfavored left behind, and the clonesofclonesofclones, puppets at the helm do as instructed and prey on the disfavored. The gods just position some organizations as more evil than others. But in a pinch they will use any to get the job done. They will just bury the results to maintain prior positioning.
Corporate is part of a structural change in the Age of the Disfavored that became more pronounced as time wore on::diverse corporate proliferation of the last 25 years. Corporate, an environment where a level of materialism is EXPECTED, is part of the problem, for materialism is an evil preached against in the Old Testiment and yet another way to incurr evil on the disfavored left behind::the pursuit of more, greed.
Nobody is going to save you:::: Jesus isn't going to save his followers, stores/manufacturers aren't going to save their loyal customers (NEVER shop exclusively in one place, never put all your eggs in one basket. It really doesn't matter for the gods control everything and it is merely for positioning's sake but it may be a test of intelligence.), employers aren't going to save their employees, etc. These are delay tactics designed to pacifiy people and ensure they don't find the path and instead get limited time. If they ask you to wait you are going to be CHEATED. Only the disfavored they intend to deny have to wait. Those whom they intend to grant consideration to receive it promptly.
This whole system is about us, the little people, the peasants, the disfavored left behind. The wealthy, the upper management of corporations, all those people are clones and are here to disceive us and mislead us. They are merely putting in their time, and after a coupe of years they will put a new clone in, ensuring none will receive much time.
If the wealthy are not visible the gods don't have to worry about clone rotation.
"Money is the root of all evil." is not just a cliche. They use the wealthy to corrupt the typical peasant, using these clones to create a goal of greed within the little people and using the media to promote materialism and consumption to society.
This whole system is about us, the disfavored left behind. And it is like this to keep us down.
Only you can save yourselves through an improved relationship with the gods.

The United States is a cancer, a dumping ground for the disfavored around the world and why the quality of life is so much lower::disturbing culture, gun violence, widespead social ills, health care issues (Pharmecuticals are designed EXCLUSIVELY to hurt the disfavored left behind by costing them a chance to ascend with their body. You are sick/injured because you have disfavor.).
Over time its citizens interbreed ensuring a severed connection to the motherland.
Over time its citizens interbreed ensuring a severed connection to the motherland.
Bi-racial opens a new category, just as the Americans did when shipped out of their motherland::Bi-racial individuals are another inferior sub-class of peasant that are to get even less time than their grossly disfavored predicessors lucky enough to retain blood purity. Its emergence late (last 40 years) is a red flag suggesting its negative status.
The disfavored cast out to the United States did, in essence, become charter members of a new sub-class of citizen in the eyes of the gods, and as they began to mix they formed new sub-classes of people:::::
1st Class - Purebloods in their motherland
2nd Class - Disfavoreds cast out to the USA who retained their motherblood over the generations.
3rd Class - Disfavoreds sent to America who bred intra-continentally (bloodlines within the same continent)
4th Class - Disfavoreds banished to the United States who bred inter-continentally (bloodlines from different continents)
The effective difference could be in level of priveledge up there or perhaps the amount of time they intend on granting you::The lower the class the less time you get (They don't like to talk about how much time they are goingto grant to people.)
If you are a recent immigrant I recommend you return. (Just as with the Europeans a century + ago, siblings who remained behind have the favor in your family.) If that's not possible you need to retain your culture and insulate your children and community from this cancerous environment. They send this clue with Chinatowns across the country, how many Chinese have been here for a century or more yet still retain the old ways, a sign of favor.

People came to the Unites States for many different reasons, and each has its own effect:::political strife, religious beliefs, crop failure (Ireland's potato famine, which of course the gods caused) and some left their beloved motherland because they were pushed into desiring a better life::::Greed, and these disfavored people were punished when the gods instructed AI to push them into becoming corrupted and preditory. They subsequently rewarded the corrupted Italians early this century so as to set the tone for the 20th century, the Age of the Disfavored, and used them to set an example for their own people and other disfavoreds within the United States. The gods sent this clue about "The Boot" (the Romans/Italians) again when European currencies merged:::::they ruined the value of the Lira prior to the merger, making the other countries foot this bill. Moral of the story::::The Italians are not to be trusted.
The gods used "The Boot" (Italy) twice::: Roman Empire and 20th century. Italians had certain priveledges for being positioned in charge, one is a lower incidence of homosexuality in the population.
Contrary to the perception, Italians have great disfavor, as do all inflicted with Catholicism:::I wonder if this was their punishment for the sins of the Roman Empire, the imperialism, the orgies???
Opera's sick themes were designed to corrupt the minds of the disfavored Italians. Once you recognize this I want to share that the Japanese also are grossly disfavored::they nearly produce distractions exclusively, their people are consumed by them, they have replaced their culture. Wealth is a corruptor and a sign a society is disfavored::::Eastern Europe (socialism/communism) has favor while their western counterparts struggle in their relationship with the gods. Also baseball is a clue a society is grossly disfavored (Altanta Braves greatness of last 20 YEARS!!!! preditory on this very disfavored city).
Cultures who embrace hard liquor as their drink of choice are grossly disfavored, tequilla being uniquely Mexican (Anything "hard" is wicked:::Hard alcohol, hard drugs, all porn.) or those who have a passion for drinking (Irish). Incidentally, another sign of gross disfavor are societies that consume spicy foods (Latin America, Thai, etc.), those who eat too much meat, engage in human sacrifice, ones who tattoo or pierce their bodies, those who celebrate evil (Celtic) or are inflicted with the Catholic Church. Contrary to what disfavored people believe, these peoples are not "earning" when they inflict their evil on others. Rather it is the source of their disfavor because the gods are scapegoatting them by hurting others with the problems the gods inflicted them with!!! Those who believe they are earning have become corrupted!!!
Disfavored people want to minimize the god's opportunities. These "open doors" give the gods the freedom to justify instructing Artificial Intelligence to create problems in the disfavored's lives. The USA, Catholic Church, hip-hop, etc all give the gods the freedom to abuse you and your family. Identify and eliminate as many of these items as you can.
The gods used "The Boot" twice, suggesting they are open to the idea of recycling:::Beem the structures and people off earth (into a star), beem out toxic waste and re-colonize the planet??? "Source planets" require a investment and they may prefer to maximize its return.

The gods will use whatever role players are at their disposal to justify their behavior to segments of society, 20th century gangsters used to position against the most disfavored among us::::They utilize levels of positioning. This is just another tactic the god's use to instill hurdles along the disfavored's path.
There is an underlying positioning beneath this, as is the god's way:::Levels of positioning used to confuse the disfavored, to add a hurdle, and I suspect 20th century WorldWars are a clue suggesting german control, as is Hitler a clue suggesting Austrian leadership. Not only is their dominance of evil warmongering in the 20th century a clue but so is their language, a gutteral, wicked sounding langauge which is a clue offered to the disfavored. Similarly the purpose of their composers, many of whom were Austrian, ALL of whom were clones (the favored children got out) was as a "high-level" distraction for those in that segment of society. Austrian Sigmund Freud is known as the father of psychoanalysis yet people have (mental) health problems because of their disfavor, illustrating the preditory purpose of this discipline, this individual.
These people.
They fought to save Christianity in The Crusades yet were the first out of the Church when Martin Luther initiated Seperatism. Do they have proprietory rights over beer, the scourge of men???
But I suspect the counsel/Management Team's use of positioning doesn't stop there. I suspect it may continue to "Earthly gods", perhaps with Egyptian Pharrohs, perhaps some Asian kings as leadership? Unlike "made guys" or VIPs, these individuals' reals may actually have a position within the Management Team for their status is very high. Their clone's role could suggest their real's importance:::::Of course their duties may not be Earthly due to bias.

If you ever have doubt I would refer you to the Old World way of life:::the elders used to sit and impart wisdom to the young. Now we watch DVDs and use the internet. People would be matched and married by age 14. They village would use a matchmaker or elders (all clones!!) to pair young people. Now girls give their precious virginity away to some person in school and parents divorce (AS TOLD!!!) while their children grow up without an important role model. The people used to honor the gods and were rewarded with a high-quality of life for them, their children and their society. Now we have a deteriorating society on a collision course with the Apocalypse.

The widespread emergence of innoculations was timed to coincide with other modern convieniences, setting the stage for the disturbing developments of the 20th century.
All are contributing factors justifing the deterioration of society, for the gods compensated for this easy living; the gods made people pay for the modern convieniences of today's society:::::
1. Indoor plumbing. People used to walk distances and return with heavy buckets full of water.
2. Freezer/refridgeration
3. Canned foods.
4. Mobility
5. Instantaneous communications
6. Freedom from pandemics through inocculations
I think the god's freedom to eliminate the descendants who had to pay for families or make widespread "corrections" (Black Plague) helped contribute to the decent society we enjoyed prior to the 20th century. Now those children live.
It's a contributing factor, justification for the deterioration of society. Since those children live we as the disfavored have to pay in a different way and 20th century developments are how.

There are many examples throughout 20th century life of how they instilled distractions into society so people wouldn't find the path and ascend, a way to justify excluding those whose family history makes them undesirable:::materialism, radio, sports, movies, popular music, television, video games, shopping. As we approached the end of the 20th century they accelerated their efforts:::the internet, the incredible increase in the stock market, etc, all deliberate attempts to ensure the disfavored are distracted/incurr evil (greed, justification for leaving the undesirable behind) and fail to make it up before this crucial date of 2000.
Today's high pay is a strategy::::It creates contentment/ability to distract self so people don't seek more, hesitant to receive contradicting possibilities, dependant on what they are told telepathically, subject to deception in a captive environment::the disfavored feel as if they are "in". It also opens the door for a materialistically-based lifestyle.
They gods (Counsel/Management Team/ruling species) have deteriorated life on earth precipitously in the last 40 years, from a godless society to abortion to pornography, widespread drug use and widespread casual (gay) sex, bi-racial children, single-parent households, latchkey kids and the masculinization of women (and hence (full) women's prisons, participatory sports, etc. (Up until the past four decades it was the men who filled the prisons, the men who made trouble, the men who caused problems, and it's because theirs is the gender with disfavor. Too many men still sign on to the "good 'ole boy's club" paternalistic type of mentality, an archaic dumping ground now designated for the grossly disfavored, and it is used to compel them to feel superior to women when just the opposite is true.) Anything that emerged since the advent of television and "fast food" should be be distrusted by the disfavored and viewed as tools of the gods designed to attack us.
Anything that emerged since the advent of television and "fast food" should be be distrusted by the disfavored and viewed as tools of the gods designed to attack us.
Anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything
Anything that emerged since the advent of television and "fast food" should be be distrusted by the disfavored and viewed as tools of the gods designed to attack us.
Women are favored, are the element of decency, and as they become more like the men the society becomes more disfavored, goes downhill, as we are witnessing.
There was a time, not so long ago, when no self-respecting woman would EVER set foot in a bar or a gambling hall. The only women who were in those type of establishments were of questionable morals, and there were far fewer of them than there are today.
Tabloids offer details on celebrities lives. Celebrities are ALL clones. In fact they utilize multiple clones for important events (noteworthy movies, spotlight sporting events, etc.)
Every one of them are clones, and all these incidents are staged::The gods tell these clone celebrities to commit their offense and offer these tabloids as temptation to the ignorant public. Tabloids are tagetted specifically to women, and the gods offer this information for a reason:::because it hurts them, they incurr evil:::::::they are enjoying the misery of others.
All these people are evil. Their presence in their chosen profession is a statement regarding disfavor, legacy left from their real.
And, much like all entertainers, sports, music, etc, they (their clone) wouldn't be doing what they do if they weren't evil. Their clones would be doing something good, something decent, something that didin't hurt people.

The earth's elders, hundreds and thousands of years old, are disgusted and have become indifferent.
The Biblical account of Noah's flood was regional to the disfavored Mediterrean (water levels lowered because of the ice age, habitation ocurred at seaside, land bridge at the Straight of Gibraltar "broke" through. Of course the gods desire maximum effect during these events so expect that they beemed in trillions of gallons into the Mediterreanean basin to enhance this event, especially in the east. Look for similar "effect-maximizing" behavior during future catestrophic events.), peoples whom the gods scapegoatted when they pushed them into the evil that justified the flood, behavior similar to that which we are witnessing today.
Because they have leveled the playing field for all people (purebloods and mongrels) in the decades prior to the 21st century is a clue they will end globally this time (westernization, materialism, immigration/interracial, homosexual, access to disturbing media, desensitization

The gods drew the disfavored out to California with the gold rush, peaking them euphorically to achieve it:::Gold fever. This is the same tactic they use to create addiction or make people gay.
In time they created the current disturbed enviornment to prey on those disfavored's descendants:::California led the social deterioration of the last 40 years as the gods escallated towards The End:::
-Free sex, Summer of Love
-Drug use
-Music scene
-Black Panthers
-Hollywood. Movies were terrible until they mysteriously changed in 196x sometime.
-Silicon Valley
-????
They implimented the deterioration of society over a century before it began in earnest.
Recall how California was the source of "progressive" ideas, gay acceptance/marriage, bi-racial acceptance, open immigration (see above), godlessness, individuality, and how these ideas were used to infect the rest of the country, the rest of the world.
Californians will be scapegoatted for The End, their "progressive" ideals used to perpetuate a "leveling of the playing field" worldwide. And don't be suprised if California (is the first to) subducts::: the North American plate sliding under the Pacific plate.

Because they have leveled the playing field for all people (purebloods and mongrels) in the decades prior to the 21st century is a clue they will end globally this time (westernization, materialism, immigration/interracial, homosexual, voyerism, pornography, access to disturbing media, desensitization, etc).
The clues all suggest a very telling conclusion::this is Earth's end stage, and there are signs tectonic plate subduction would be the method of disposal:::Earth’s axis will shift breaking continental plates free and initiating mass subduction. Much as Italy's boot and the United States shaped like a workhorse (with a fat ass) are clues, so is the planet Uranus a clue, its axis rotated on its side. Edgar Cayce was a tool of the gods in the 20th century, picking winners for and costing the disfavored Italian gangsters priveledge in heaven when he prophecized subduction being the method of disposal.
Global warming should alarm people for it is a clue telling of the bleak future of Planet Earth.
The Bible says fire will be our demise this time. Both subduction and "beemed to the center of a star" fit this description:::::Don't think it will take as long as global warming suggests.
The gods used "The Boot" (Italy) twice, suggesting the gods are open to the idea of recycling::: Beem the structures and people off earth (into a star), beem out toxic waste and re-colonize the planet??? "Source planets" require a investment and they may prefer to maximize its return.
Could they have already recycled earth before?

The Mayans as well as others were specific December 21, 2012 would be the end. How long after our emergency call in 2001 will the gods allow us???
How long after our emergency call in 2001 will the gods allow us???
How long after our emergency call in 2001 will the gods allow us???
The gods wrote prophecy in Revelation, had subsequent prophets foresee Earth's demise for good reason:::they are going to end on Planet Earth.
What else are they lying to you about? What else are they lying to you about?
What else are they lying to you about? What else are they lying to you about?
What else are they lying to you about? What else are they lying to you about?
What else are they lying to you about? What else are they lying to you about?
The gods wrote prohpecy for a reason:::They wrote prohpecy and conceived/implimented positioning because they intend on enforcing both. They didin't ivest the effort only to abandon their plans at a later date.
When people are saved at the end it will be clones and clonesofclonesofclones, not the disfavored people who have problems who were deceived into carrying on like they were "made guys", and it will (was) be some theatrical event, forcing some of these clones to come back, for I think many of them no longer reisde on Earth.
My message illustrating the path may be the disfavored's last clue. All clues before have been more covert but this one is quite obvious indeed, which says time is running out.

There are many ways they can play the deterioration of society as we move towards The End and you need to recognize it, for the door is open. I suspect the script is written, but the following is one idea they floated to me a couple of years ago::::
They may one day send a message, creating desperation among the disfavoreds:::
Have their redwhite&blue (favored) clones shut down their corporations, stop their economic activity, be it farming, canning, power production, etc. and close up shop. This would leave the few disfavored companies (Atlanta) to fulfill the demand, unless they instruct them to pull out as well, for they ARE all clones, and this "good/evil company" issue is merely positioning.
They suggested they'd beem out all animals, be it livestock, etc., ensuring a heightened level of desperation. The resulting chaos would likley initiate the Apocalypse.
Disfavored people shouldn’t be doing business with the favored.
Beem me up please.
(Atlanta is a very disfavored city and the gods instructed disfavored companies to locate there; Braves greatness of last 20 YEARS!!!! preditory on this very disfavored city. Baseball is a tool of the gods used to prey on the disfavored.
They threatened they would maintain a hurricane at category 5 even as far inland as Atlanta to destroy the city for the second time.)

Whereas Christopher Columbus marked the beginning of the end, the Holocaust marked the beginning of the final act, and it is a tragedy:::::
The gods fulfill the role of evil by preying on the disfavored and using Artificial Intelligence to push the disfavored into wickedness, paving the way for The End.
god is the Anti-Christ, if you put any credibility in this. The gods view it as a joke because Christianity is BY FAR the world's WORST major religion.
This may never be revealed because of the levels of positioning. Perhaps they would put in some puppet, use some german, perhaps a Pharroh or an antient Asian king to position this to the ignorant which allows the gods to come off clean, leaving a MAJOR hurdle for the disfavored to overcome somewhere down the road. But the gods ARE the source of misery for the disfavored. They promote evil and tempt people, instructing Artificial Intellignece to push them or disceive them into wickedness.
god is the Anti-Christ. Christianity is BY FAR the world's WORST major religion, and the proof lies wih the disallusion the throngs of Christians experience once they learn this reality. The "final test" was most effective on Christians, for the gods are not good and loving. The gods have quite a sophisticated taste for vengance and inflict disasterously on the innocent descendants (the population explosions of the last few centuries say something very disturbing.).
god is the Anti-Christ. They LOVE irony like this. It is the apex of this theater.
They LOVE to manage our lives, and they love the drama that results.
To be god fearing is a very healthy thing.

People must defy when asked to engage in evil. The Holocaust taught people the importance of defiance::our great grandparents should have defied when telepathically asked to ignore the Holocaust and instead reacted with outrage. I suspect some did::many were silenced while others were hustled off earth so as to not set an example. Now the gods have used that incident to justify punishing that generation's decendants by ruining society.
The gods imparted many other clues, another example being the incidents where women killed their children because they were told to. AT LEAST one child out of each family had to pay the price, and they will all stay less time than had they done it the right way and fixed their problems.
Would YOU murder your children if they asked?? They also ask some people to be gay. Would you live a homosexual lifestyle if they requested??
People will never get a easier clue suggesting the importance of defiance than the order not to pray. Their precious babies are dependant on the parents and they need to defy when asked to betray their children:::
-DON'T get your sons circumcized (Jews scapegoatted as per the clue sent in WWII (like justification, scapegoatting a recurring theme:::Scapegoatting as a matter of policy). I suspect Jews were scattered around Europe as a clue to misled Christians like the Amish are a clue in the United States today, the gods used the germans to dispose of this clue.)
-DON'T have their children baptized in the Catholic Church or indoctrinated into Christianity (Jesus is NOT a god. Jesus teaches us the right way to think, and it is a message is so elementary that it is good only for the disfavored dumped into "insensitive meathead" category.
The gods are not forgiving or begnign. They are vindictive and will punish you if you do something wrong.)
-DON'T ignore long hair or other behavioral disturbances.
-DO teach your children love, respect for others, humility and to honor the gods.
-DO teach your children about the power within the god's possession, if not directly then indirectly.
And when you refuse a request defy the right way, withdrawn and frightened, for you don't want to incite them by reacting inappropriately.

You need to pray, honor and respect them multiple times every day to improve your relationship with the gods. If they tell you not to pray it is a bad sign. It means they've made their decision, they don't want you to go and they don't want to reconsider. You may have achieved a threshold of evil. This is the Age of the Disfavored and you need to pray:::::Attone for the things you've done wrong. Try to appease the gods by doing good deeds and improve the world around you. Focus on becoming "Christ-like". Apply yourself to your children for I think this is the single best way for adults to try to redeem themselves in the eyes of the gods. Hopefully you can reearn enough favor to be allowed to pray. Otherwise you need to defy if you are to repair your relationship with the gods and give yourself a chance at significant time, not just a handful of decades.
Otherwise you need to defy if you are to repair your relationship with the gods and give yourself a chance at significant time, not just a handful of decades. Each individual has a relationship with the gods and you need to repair yours. Nobody is going to do it for you nor is anybody going to save you. This is not respectable and the gods do not respect it:::You must repair YOUR relationship with the gods yourself.
If you are a clone, if you have "seen", you more than anybody should honor the gods for you know their great power:::you have seen it firsthand. They share that they prefer most clones not pray and segment them like they do disfavoreds left behind, for it will limit the time they will receive, JUST LIKE THEY DO TO TYPICAL DISFAVOREDS!!! The gods deceive them to achieve this, for fresh clones are easily misled, setting them in the wrong direction and compelling these individuals into a pattern that excludes honoring their creator, limiting the time they are to receive. You need to discover your humanity, get out of that gear they put clones in and this will only happen though progress, continuing effort towards self-improvement.
When your peasant forefather was granted the rare opportunity to go before his royal family he went on his knees, bowing his head, humbled and frightened. You need to do this when you address the gods::bow down and submit to good. Never cast your eyes skyward. When you bow down you need to look within. Never look to the gods for you have the key to your own salvation. Remain silent and never address the gods directly for this is disrespectful. Practice patience and wait for them to address you:::never speak unless you are spoken to.
Nobody is going to do it for you. People need to save THEMSELVES by improving THEIR relationship with the gods. If you comply and don't pray you will get fifty years IF you go and then you will die, they will beem you to the center of a star. PLUS your level of priveledge will be much lower than had you repaired your relationship with the gods appropriately. Each one of us has a relationship with them and you need to fix your relationship with the gods. You need to SAVE YOURSELF by improving YOUR RELATIONSHIP with them.
SAVE YOURSELF SAVE YOURSELF SAVE YOURSELF SAVE YOURSELF SAVE YOURSELF SAVE YOURSELF SAVE YOURSELF SAVE YOURSELF SAVE YOURSELF SAVE YOURSELF
IMPROVE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM IMPROVE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM IMPROVE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM IMPROVE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM
The gods mislead people into a delay mode::: "Somebody will fix your problems for you.", "The Second Coming of Christ will save everybody in the end.", "You have to "die out".". Only YOU can save YOU, and YOU KNOW IT, just as Mohammed's clone's followers KNOW polygamy is wrong::::: they know it as sure as they look at their daughters, as sure as they recall playing with their sisters as children, as sure as they remember basking in the love of their mothers.
It's wrong.
We all have a relationship with the gods. And you need to repair yours. The gods demand decency and respecability or you will be gone quickly. Take responsibility for your relationship with them and work to improve it.

Lack of humility hurts people, and the "empowering" environment that is the United States is an open door used to justify instructing Artificial Intelligence to amplify this problem. Understand your insignificance and make sure it is reflected in the way you think when addressing the gods. You are but a grain of sand on a vast beach, a drop in the ocean that is the universe. They are great and powerful and angry. Know your place, understand your inferiority and be afraid. They allowed (granted) you life and they can take it just as easily. (Immaculte conception IS true AND COMMON. Many people have children they don't know of:::gays, childless adults, etc. They can beem it right out of your body and use a host.)
You are not cool. Too many young men strive for cool and it hurts them, as does all things targetted to males (professional sports, video games, beer, pornography, vehicle racing, heavy metal rock, cursing, competitive or dangerous/risky career, etc. The women who enjoy any of these activities are ALL disfavored.). Be afraid and make sure you think the right way when you address them daily. Too many people are deceived by this casual enviornment they create in people's minds today. This does people a great disservice and it hurts them in the eyes of the gods. Try to eliminate it and avoid allowing it back once you have. Be very reverent and respectful whenever you address them no matter how they may encourage the opposite.
I was observing the protesters at the anti-war protest. Some were saying terrible things about an important person.
If they were back in the old world they'd lose their head for this, and it would be the very best thing for the others to see.
To live under a monarchy with an iron fist would be optimal conditioning for the disfavored, for it helps them understand their role in a relationship with the gods.
Don't get frustrated or discouraged::these are techniques they will attempt to try to get you off the path. You all have much to be thankful for and you need to give thanks to the gods who granted you the good things in life::friends, family, love. Your family may be grossly disfavored and progress may require patience. Make praying an intregal part of your life which you perform without fail, one that comes as naturally as eating, voiding or conception. Accept your new life and be devoted because if you have doubt or reservation they will exploit this weakness and progress will take longer to achieve, the "testing" phase will be extended. Don't give them any opportunities, don't allow them any open doors because they will use them, adding hurdles along the way and making the path even more difficult.
The gods will employ many tactics to keep people off the path, such as distractions. They will employ many more to get them off, such as thinking through the disfavored and making them frustrated, perhaps engaging in retailiation. They may try to force you back into old patterns/routines, an addiction like smoking or when you felt weekly church attendance was sufficient. Asking you not to be gay immediately is a tactic to prevent you from finding/following the path. Be resigned, be devoted and this testing period will be as brief as your disfavor will allow.
There are many interesting experiences up on the planetary systems, from Planet Miracle, where miracles happen every day, to peaked (heightened) senses, never having to use the restroom again (beem it out of you), body sculpting (including beeming fat off of you), other body experiences, such as experiencing life as the opposite sex (revolutionizes marriage counseling), an Olympic gold medal athelete or even a different species (animal, alien, etc). They can maintain the disfavored's current age, a motivation to fix your problems and get out as soon as possible so you can stay young for as long as your relationship with the gods allows you to live.
Stay young for as long as your relationship with the gods allows you to live.
Stay young for as long as your relationship with the gods allows you to live.
Of course there are NEGATIVE consequences for a life of corruption::::: reincarnation that forces rebirth on the victim. They have said they have rebirthed sexist men as pigs but also have REBIRTHED REALS AS CLONES, AND MAKE THE NEWLY MADE CLONE CONSCIOUS AT AGE 6 (or 60), not aware they are reals from a prior life, HIGHLY suseptable to suggestion.
Imagine some disfavored fellow, car crash in their new muscle car in 1972, perhaps a heroin overdose in 1978, rebirthed as a 30 year old male in 1980 when so many got out, set loose to prey on fellow disfavoreds during this ruthless decade of evil.
They have suggested they will send the disfavoreds back again and again, as reals or as clones who fill roles such as this until they ultimately fix their problems and get out.
Pray that you can differentiate between your own thoughts and when Artificial Intelligence creates problems by thinking through you. If you bow down mentally and physically, know your place, your inferiority and allow your insignificance to be reflected in prayer and in your life through humility and modesty they may allow progress and the disfunctions they create with the computer will be lessened or removed. The first step is to be aware it is ocurring.
The first steps towards repairing your relationship with the gods is to:::::::::
1. Understand they instruct the computer to "role play" in an attempt to confuse you:::it's ALWAYS the computer addressing you. Their goal is to cost you additional YEARS of your life by using this tactic to confuse you. Always be aware of this tactic and eventually they will give up and allow this step to be taken.
2. Differentiate between your thoughts and when they are thinking through you.
3. Be resigned to be a good person who will never engage in evil again even if ordered and they will stop trying to corrupt you, allowing this very big step to be taken.
Create a goal::to be a good, god-fearing child of the gods, pure of heart and mind, body and soul.
Everybody has the key to their own salvation, but nobody can do it for you. Every journey begins with a single step:::bow down and submit to good.

There are many different levels and peasants will not get past Level 2 (aka Planet Temptation, aka Planet Corporate, aka Planet Clone, aka Purgatory, Earth=Level 1) if they are evil (they share some go up, are offered free cocaine and orgies with incredibly beautiful clones (a sign they don't want you to stay) and stay less then one year. They share many others would have had longer lives had they stayed on Earth.). Also the time you receive will be drastically reduced:::your life's course of unrespectability will have costed you a chance at immortality.
If the day comes when you understand this all is true it is a good sign::: It means they want to keep you, you are being granted a chance to change your life. Those they don't want to retain will be placed into an environment in which they feel comfortable to ensure the minimal chance possible.
Edgar Cayce's prognostications effectively served as "the rope", temptation for the disfavored Italians. Money is not an issue on the level above Level 2, Purgatory, and "something for nothing" behavior like this will exclude you, as will behavior such as permanance in/abuse of the welfare system, using (unreasonable) coupons, buying on sale exclusively, supermarkets as ATMs, gambling for gain instead of fun, overeating at buffets, CHEATING on your taxes, etc:::When people who have been granted good things in life from the gods turn around and CHEAT them they risk their entrance into heaven.

It is important that you begin praying now. Evil is a slippery slope::once you start punishment begins to escallate. If you defy early there may be no retribution but as you continue to committ evil there will be until the point where you can no longer stand it (If you experience retribution it is punishment for the evil you've comitted, necessary since you're interesting in pursuing god's favor::::You have to be punished for what you've done wrong.).
Pray for guidance and never obey when they tell you to be evil, for saving yourself will become more and more difficult with each act of evil you committ until ultimatly the day arrives when they make their decision about you final.
It's important that people fix their problems and ascend with the body given to them, for they say if your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
If your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
If your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
If your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
If your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
If your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
If your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
If your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
If your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
If your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
If your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.

Throughout history the ruling species bestowed favor upon people or cursed their bloodline into a pattern of disfavor for many generations to come. Now in the 21st century people must take it upon themselves to try to correct their family's problems, undoing generation(s) worth of abuse and neglect. The goal is to fix your problems and get out while you are still young::::
1. Before children beco

I disagreed with Clinton when he offered the North Koreans the same deal in 1992 (when Korea had one bomb) that Bush agreed to in 2007 (when Korea has god knows how many). Clinton should have attacked North Korea. We could have shut down their electrical system using cruise missiles just as easily as we did when we hit Iraq. Let's see them try to run a nuclear program without electric power.
Kipling wrote a poem about Dangeld. It hasn't changed. It's still a bad idea.

Rob Lyman wrote:

Ellipses, I hate to seem pedantic, but it's "Chimpy McHitlerburton."

Dammit, I missed another memo. I stand corrected.

David Walser got it exactly right. And, would you please delete respe's schizoid rant?

Diplomacy, failing to realize the North Korean's propensity for the word "no".

And yeah, there's an off-topic rambling incoherent rant of epic size there. I'm not going to bother trying to read that, so if you meant to impart information... you failed.

In response to an earlier comment, yes, I do believe that North Korea and Iran accelerated their nuclear programs in response to Bush's preemption policy, and that this could have been predicted. In response to Jane's original post and to the views of most of the people responding to it, I think that negotiation is better than war unless you are in imminent danger of attack. I think that President Eisenhower made the right choice by negotiating the end of the Korean War and the Soviet withdrawal from Austria with Malenkov and Bulganin/Kruschev, and I think President Kennedy made the right choice in negotiating an end to the Cuban missile crisis rather than attacking Cuba. I also think that Jane and the people who post on this site have not really thought out what they're saying. At the risk of being pretentious, I'll quote Goethe: Action is easy, thought is hard.

wkwillis, first off the deal was in 1994 not 1992, and at that time no one thought the North Koreans had a nuke.

Yes we could have shut down their electrical system with a cruise missile, but so what. They have these things called artillery. Approximately 100,000 shells could land on Seoul in an hour. The basic fact is if war breaks out on the Peninsula, Seoul is hit real hard and a bunch of people die. Last I heard the mid range 24 hour casualty rate among ROK civilians is 100K.

Honestly a North Korean nuke has very limited deterrence value beyond what they already have. IT is more worrying from a proliferation point of view. the DPRK needs money, I have no doubt they will sell a nuke if they can.

"In response to an earlier comment, yes, I do believe that North Korea and Iran accelerated their nuclear programs in response to Bush's preemption policy, and that this could have been predicted. In response to Jane's original post and to the views of most of the people responding to it, I think that negotiation is better than war unless you are in imminent danger of attack. I think that President Eisenhower made the right choice by negotiating the end of the Korean War and the Soviet withdrawal from Austria with Malenkov and Bulganin/Kruschev, and I think President Kennedy made the right choice in negotiating an end to the Cuban missile crisis rather than attacking Cuba. I also think that Jane and the people who post on this site have not really thought out what they're saying. At the risk of being pretentious, I'll quote Goethe: Action is easy, thought is hard."

A few points:
1. Eisenhower's successful negotiation to the end of the Korean war assured a premanent Korean conflict that we are struggling with today.
2. Kennedy did not negotiate an end to the Cuban crisis rather than attack Cuba. He posted a naval blockade and dared the Soviets to attack it. They backed down rather than attack us.
3. You really think the failure of the Bush administration is that they caused an acceleration of the terrorist states' development of their nuclear weapons. You are quite content then with their development, just not at a certain speed that exceeds your tolerance?
4. You have a touching faith in talking with the North Koreans. What would you have us say that we haven't said? What bribes or tribute would you offer them that would persuade them to discontinue their suicidal international posture rather than convince their egomanical leader to pressure us for more?
5. Goethe said action is easy and thought hard. It would seem that if the left pretends to engage in thought they can forgive themselves for avoiding inaction.

Make that "avoiding action," not avoiding "inaction."

Stan,

Your belief “that North Korea and Iran accelerated their nuclear programs in response to Bush's preemption policy” is an assertion made in the absence of any supporting evidence and, as such, is about as useful as invoking the influence of the tooth fairy. On the other hand, there is evidence to support the notion that Libya gave up its nuclear ambitions in response to Bush’s intervention in Iraq. If we had continued to negotiate do you imagine Libya would have given up trying to acquire a bomb out of fear of diplomacy?

Perhaps a more fitting quote is “why look it up when you can make it up?”

Stan,

You may note that China and the Soviets came to the table in your examples only after some serious military action and threats--actions/threats in the present context would be violently opposed by the politicians pushing negotiation.

The Cuban missile crisis thing especially is priceless from a guy who says others aren't thinking enough. The blockade was a gamble that could have gone very, very badly. Fortunately, the Soviets thought so, too, which is what made negotiation possible.

Twill00

Nuclear attack is not an option. This is a nation dug in specifically to resist nuclear attack.

You would coat the entire Northern Hemisphere with fallout, and still be left with an enemy in its bunkers, capable of emerging and doing harm to you.

Biowar is also not an option:

1. we don't have any bioweapon that they don't have

2. if we do, we don't have an immunity against it either

3. we would trigger the biological arms race of all time. Every country with a recombinant DNA lab (Japan, Sweden, Egypt) would start designing the weapon to attack America in self defence.

Ellipsis

The Atlantic Magazine commissioned a wargame about North Korea.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200507/stossel

The estimates given to Clinton in 1994 were:

- 50,000 US dead or wounded
- 1 million South Korean dead or wounded
- uncountable North Koreans (millions probably, eventually)

All within 90 days.

There is no evidence that these estimates have changed or have gotten better. The North Koreans have 1 million regular soldiers, and as many as 4 million militia.

Then you 'own' a hostile and shattered country, full of refuseniks dug in, capable of fighting an ongoing guerilla war against you, with huge stockpiles of armaments and all with military training.

Sound familiar? Like Iraq maybe?

It's also, of course, academic. The US has no deployable manoeuvre forces, post 'surge' into Iraq. Turning a National Guard unit into a manoeuvre brigade takes up to 18 months. The Ready Reserve isn't used that way (greater emphasis on specialist personnel and units to 'slot in' to Regular forces).

Jane

This one is too obvious.

The difference between what Clinton had, and Bush has now, is the North Koreans have *plutonium* extracted for up to 20 weapons.

When the North Koreans revealed that they had kept up a *uranium* enrichment facility, post Clinton deal, Bush branded them 'axis of Evil' and broke the agreement.

That took NK from a position of having enough uranium for 1 or 2 bombs, to the far more effective position they are in now of 10 to 20 plutonium bombs (much more effective).

By making a 'tough stance' what Bush has bought himself is an NK that has tested a nuclear weapon (but it was a fizzle ie a misfire), and has a lot more of them available.

We are back to where we started with Clinton, albeit with less negotiating leverage over them.

nathaniel

It's called poison gas. It won't be 100,000 South Koreans, it will be 1 million.

And that assumes everyone gets to their gas mask, and to the shelters*

*and*

the NK don't use VX or another highly potent gas such as Sarin (invented in 1940), which is penetrable through the skin.

Seoul has *over 10 million* people.

You've seen pictures of Stalingrad, or Rwanda? Seoul will look like that.

On what the North Koreans can do with a nuke, see www.armscontrolwonk.com , the best site on the web for this stuff.

The short answer is they probably can't put it in a missile, yet. But they can put it on a fighter bomber.

The plutonium Bush has given them makes the problem of building a missile warhead that much easier (plutonium bombs are smaller).

* the exact situation is if they use say a Sarin/VX mix, then 1 million is probably a low estimate for dead or severly wounded. Even prepared troops lose people-- gas masks fail, impermeable clothing is permeable, gas screens fail etc. Let alone civilians

If it is simply mustard gas (invented 1916) then the losses will be much much lower, assuming (which I believe to be true) that all South Koreans are issued with up to date masks, all the mask filters are up to date, and there is evacuation to the basement shelters (which I believe all South Korean buildings have).

cf: Why do you think "each other", meaning humans, are barely edible?

Because the others are starving, too. They're not going to get the chance to eat their well-fed overlords...

ellipsis: People who like to pose as "serious", on the other hand, need only know what they read in "Atlantic", TNR and of course the editorial pages of the NY Times (that being pretty much every page in the paper nowadays)...they'd be prone to blame George ChimpsMcHitler for everything bad.

Valuethinker:

The Atlantic Magazine commissioned a wargame about North Korea.

I have nothing to add here, except something about the Saturday Evening Post and fornicating.

AT

You should read the Atlantic Article. The people who took part were all ex military or ex NSC (Kenneth Adelman, etc.), including the former US Air Force commander for Korea.

There's no reason to doubt the military outcomes are at all different.

You think war with a country with 1 million regulars, up to 5 million militia, that has been digging in for 50 years will be some kind of cakewalk? Did I mention the 10,000 tubes of artillery?

How about the Weapons of Mass Destruction. Oh, and the nuclear bombs Bush gave them the material for.

Let's not forget those.

Someone else made a point in passing that is worth repeating: the ROK doesn't want to fight the DPRK. In fact, they are itching for reunification, and many see the U.S. as a primary obstacle to it. Those attitudes have and will continue to influence our decisions for the forseeable future. As long as the South Koreans love North Koreans more than Kim Jong-il does, we will be revisiting this current situation in perpetuity.

Valuethinker:

I don't think anyone here is advocating for invasion of North Korea, especially as long as it is essentially a hostage situation (with KJI playing the role of mad gunman, pointing his gun at his own people and Seoul.)

But I think you overestimate the DPRK military; while there's a lot of them, there's no guarantee they're any good. They're essentially using 1950's technology. Yes, they'll take a lot of people with them, but they're not the All-World All Stars, either.

Stan,
"Action is easy, thought is hard" made me think (rather than act).
The problem is it was written by someone whose trade was thinking and not acting.
Here's something to make you think hard:
Suppose you are trying to negotiate with someone and you've already made clear to that person that you will negotiate but not act.
Do yuo think it possible that that person might conclude that they could themselves act without consequence?
THe example I have in mind is Neville Chamberlain vs Hitler.
Sometimes actors are smarter than thinkers.

Jane, I know this might be a bit unusual of a request – but would you please delete the long comment located at:

http://www.janegalt.net/archives/009643.html#121003

It looks like somebody copy and pasted a page from another site, it’s not really on topic, and I’m sure a lot of readers would appreciate not having to take the time to scroll past it and risk missing comments that are actually dealing with the topic.

Thanks

Didn't Saddam have a million-man army in 1991? Anyway, I'm tired with the appeal to authority fallacy and the assumption that wargames = war. I mean, if an air force guy says a ground invasion will cost 5 billion dead, it must be true.

"As long as the South Koreans love North Koreans more than Kim Jong-il does, we will be revisiting this current situation in perpetuity."

Well unless Kim Jong-il has discovered the secret to immortality, I doubt it very much.

"the ROK doesn't want to fight the DPRK. In fact, they are itching for reunification"

None of the South Koreans I've talked to want reunification. They're afraid of it, because it will cost too much. They like the North Koreans better than they like foreigners, but they like themselves best of all and are willing to let Kim Jong Il gradually kill off his own people, rather than foot the bill for modernizing the totally dysfunctional North Korean economy.

Plus, of course, South Koreans have a legitimate fear of how many people they could lose in a confrontation. AT - you're right that wargames are only an estimate, not fact, but would you want to risk it if you lived in Seoul?

One of the problems with these negotiations is that South Korea, China and the US all have very different goals, with only some slight overlap in spots.

Brian: I thought immortality was one of the primary goals of all meglomaniacal dictators. :-)

But seriously, I don't have much hope that a post-KJI regime will be much friendlier. Maybe I'm wrong. That would be great.

Ann: I think this is an occasion where there are strong generational differences in opinion. The younger folks who don't remember Park Chung Hee's rigid regime, or the poverty of the post-war years, are far more sympathetic to the North than their parents.

But beyond that, it has been South Korea's government that has been the most annoyed of any country in the region by our tough talk towards DPRK. Indeed, Kim Dae Jung's Sunshine Policy, for which he won a Nobel Peace Prize, has meant new trade and aid to the DPRK, with little benefit for the ROK, besides the hope that such bribes will lead to KJI softening, and eventual reunification.

Well unless Kim Jong-il has discovered the secret to immortality, I doubt it very much.

Why not? His father discovered it, in a manner of speaking; and Insane Peronality Cult Jr. has several offspring of his own to cultivate, so...

It's also just a form of American arrogance, to assume that we are powerful enough to just talk other countries out of things they are intent on.

Iran and NK have determined it's in their national interest to acquire nukes, and nothing short of armed intervention is going to dissuage them of this notion. Why is that so hard to understand?

Christina - I think you're right about the differences between generations. And the South Koreans I know want reunification sometime in the fuzzy distant future. They think that by waiting, North Korea will somehow magically fix itself, so t