Asymmetrical Information

'Why do people do this? She spent more time insisting that the thing was impossible than it would have taken her to say, "Okay, then I need your social security number and your current address."'

Was she paid for this time? Have you switched banks? What would it take for you to stop banking with them? Do they have to wad up deposit slips and hurl them at you for sport?

I have found banks to be absolutely the worst abusers of their customers there are. I am delighted to have a credit union where I work, and they are wonderful.

Unfortunately, I recently tried to avail myself of some state mortgage programs. They were only offered through a few participating banks. At no branch of any participating bank was it ever possible to speak to anyone at any time. It seemed to me to be a bad policy, but I guess they knew what they were doing. I think their business model relies on lonely old single people depositing funds and promptly dropping dead. It's a good gig if you can get it I suppose.

I've had the exact opposite thing happen here.

For a time I was getting a lot of work done on my house. So I was going in weekly to take out some reasonably large sums of money. Go in - hand them my ATM card - they tell me to stick in my pin. Walla... they give me cash.

" You don't want my drivers license" I ask. No - your atm card is your verification.

Some might say the same thing happens when you go through the ATM machine - but I was having a remodel done. These were significantly larger sums of cash than I could get out of the ATM.

I have never tried to remove money from a bank account without an ATM card, check, or withdrawl slip on which already had my account information. On none of these occasions was I asked for anything more than a driver's license.

Jane, when you were withdrawing the money, did you have to ask the teller to bring up your account number, or did you already have it? I would be disturbed by any bank that would release money from an account when someone brings in only a driver's license and a credit card.

And one day Jane's identy is stolen, her accounts are overdrawn and 3 credit cards taken out in her name are maxed out.

"How could a person who wasn't me pretend to be me?"

Because they are told to.

The "reasoning" process of your average customer service rep is a thoughtless flowchart. Ask this question, and depending on the answer, go to step 2a or 2b. If I were to call Comcast about my upstream packet loss problem, I would have to sit through an hour of yes it's plugged in, ok I'll power-cycle the modem, reinstall my NIC drivers, and sacrifice a chicken, before I could talk to someone who might actually know what a packet is and why they're losing mine.

It's essentially an 80/20 design of customer service. You construct a system that will respond to the most common issues in the simplest way, most of the time, with the acknowledgment that when your round holes encounter square pegs there will be significant pain on both sides.

It should be noted that this is the wrong way to design your customer service. Joel Spolsky shows us the right way: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/customerservice.html

Your problems with U-Haul come as no surprise. Many people claim their customer service is quite poor.

And one day Jane's identy is stolen, her accounts are overdrawn and 3 credit cards taken out in her name are maxed out...

As I understand it, the problem is not "they have security rules," it's that they apparently have secret ways around those rules that they try their hardest not to tell you about.

Which might answer your question: a person in true distress, in their judgment, gets to make a questionable transaction, while the identity theif, who might be eager to leave before anyone gets too good a look at him, is stopped by the initial denial. I don't know if that actually works or if they actually think that way, but it's a possible rationale.

Is nobody else wondering how someone who's forgotten her wallet still has her driver's license with her?

Do you keep the DL in your car?

I'm going to have to agree with Jane_Galt's frustration. A lot of places seem to have processes that never went through the equivalent of a "failure modes effects analysis".

For example, setting up utilities. They want to check your credit OR get a deposit. One or the other. Doesn't matter. BUT, since they're about to take a while to do the credit check, and a lot of people don't like giving their SSN, hm, maybe they could OFFER that second option first?

Instead it's, "I ABSOLUTELY NEED YOUR SSN. [five minutes later] Oh, guess your credit sucks, give us $100 if you want electricity."

I have to disagree with Noah_Yetter, though: this isn't universal to customer service. When I worked at a major grocery chain in Texas, they were very clear about how the "right way" to do customer service, is to ALWAYS "discuss options" instead of saying no.

Someone's CC doesn't work? Like clockwork: "We can also accept cash, checks, atm cards, or another credit card. They're an ATM machine right over there." Etc. The only hard rule was "Must have state ID for alcohol purchase if young-looking."

Hi, Jane -

A handful of points:

1. It is often the case that customer service reps use hearsay in determining the capabilities of the system. So it is as surprising to them when the system accepts inputs different than what they were told (nobody reads the manual, particularly at this level) as it is to you.

2. When you work customer service, there are a thousand different exceptions that come up all the time. They were protecting themselves, until you scared them.

3. Your comment about a stolen wallet would be caught because the DL picture (presumably) wouldn't look like the person who stole it. The requirement for two forms of authentication is intended to thwart the (somewhat lazy) identity thief who creates a single fake form of ID. In addition, depending on the form of ID, it requires a lot more work by the fraudster. Funny that they asked for a credit card, of course, since it would significantly reduce the need for the cash.

4. I assume you are not that type of person who would also complain about the lax security in place if/when your money actually is stolen, right? It is a constant job of checks and balances and your (somewhat legitimate) actions just made it that much harder for the person at the counter to do the right thing. (In the security world, we distinguish between "policy decision points" and "policy enforcement points" to try to help here.)

5. It is NOT illegal for a business to request the SSN in order to perform some service - from SSA's website:

"If a business or other enterprise asks you for your SSN, you can refuse to give it. However, that may mean doing without the purchase or service for which your number was requested. For example, utility companies and other services ask for a Social Security number, but do not need it; they can do a credit check or identify the person in their records by alternative means."

Btw, the notion that SSNs are secret is ludicrous. We should publish them all to eliminate that facade and make immediate progress toward a separate form of real authentication.

I like your blog, incidentally ;-)

Pete

"Is nobody else wondering how someone who's forgotten her wallet still has her driver's license with her?"

Yes, I was wondering that too.

There is something about these moments which is so Kafkaesque. 'Am I real because in some way I don't know if I am a person that the face of G-d could even find, or am I a beetle or cockroach which He was inordinately fond of creating different species of,' I think twitching my antennae. Recently, somebody stole my credit card and had a New Mexico driver's license made with my name on it. That was intersting to stare at; the presenter ran out of the store, leaving it, when the $10,000 in recent purchases excited some interest at the card issuer.

I'll have to defend customer service reps, here.

The main problem--and I can only speak from previous experience, and obviously not all customer service is like this--but every transaction a clerk or a representative makes is somehow audited and reviewed.

Most of them would absolutely LOVE to make life easier for you...but they can't. Or, rather, the penalties for the "exception" to the rule are far worse than making one out of every ten customer's transactions a few percentage points better. A rep that fails to ask for ID, or ask for a SSN when it is normally the case can quite easily LOSE THEIR JOB if the results are audited somehow.

Most customer service jobs--especially those that are monitored, such as virtually all call center jobs--have specific statements and steps they must follow or they will fail an audit. If the rep sounds bored when they're obviously reading some script off of a card, it's because they are--but if they don't say it, they fail. If you're going to blame anyone, blame those managers/implementors who require that the reps follow these guidelines TO THE LETTER and are too lazy to objectively look at each transaction to see if it makes sense. It's easier for a score of managers to have a checklist of steps taken by a rep than to argue with each and every rep over each and every situation.

It's usually true that there are work-arounds, but these are usually audited as well, and any deviation has to be duly noted and creates quite a bit of work for a rep. The "computers" can't handle a transaction without a certain number, of course, but that simply means that the person involved is now going to have to spend 10+ minutes filling out paperwork instead of tapping it in a computer for 2 minutes. It's hardly surprising that reps will avoid extra work, especially if the request seems arbitrary--and, to be honest, asking for extra ID or a SSN is not too terribly unreasonable. You'd feel otherwise if these fail-safes didn't save you from having your account or transaction compromised.

And, the above person is right. Asking for an SSN is not illegal, and a business can refuse your service if they decide. Obviously, the want your business so will normally do it otherwise, but, hey, if it's gonna be more work for them, it's gonna be more work for you.

Rob Lyman has a point a thief is probably more likely to slink away quietly. Also they want to train you to do things their way and not ask for exceptional treatment.

Or maybe the teller was just having a bad day. Or you were emitting offputting yuppie entitlement vibes.

I use Penske instead of UHaul since UHaul tends to have a "my way or the highway" approach to things. Like you've discovered.

The Two IDs At The Bank Thing? Two words: Patriot Act. They go through the same nonsense when setting up just about any account and I can't imagine getting cash is any different -- at least to the average "by the book" teller.

That they eventually caved -- well, with two "security questions" (what *were* they, pray tell?) -- is most interesting. I credit/blame the new Democrat(ic) majority ...

Valjean: You want to know what the security questions were? They were implied in the last sentence of the post.

She spent more time insisting that the thing was impossible than it would have taken her to say, "Okay, then I need your social security number and your current address."

Looks like your mental acuity hasn't changed much since your temper tantrum over the use of the term "belief".

My experience with banks is that it's ten times hard to get something done inside the bank than it is with an ATM ten feet outside. The ATM needs a pin; the bank needs two forms of ID, a signature, a thumbprint and a kidney.

When it comes to transactions where some extraneous number is "required by the computer system" (like the U-Haul system), I strongly suggest making one up. There's a chance they can tell (credit cards have check digits), but most likely the software will just make sure it has an entry.

Person,

Remember, that's pitiable temper tantrum.

I believe I stand corrected and bow to your infinite wisdom.

I like reading anything negative about Citibank - even if it's a generic complaint about people behind the counter. After 12 years of "eh" service, I have recent had an issue with Citibank that has made me decide to close the account. I'm looking forward to any exit questions when I remove all of the money from my so-called "preferred" money market account. Likely, they won't ask why I'm leaving, but I'm ready if they do. Now, if I could only decide on which bank is going to get my account.

I'm open to suggestions.

Why do people leave their wallets at home and then go and yell at other people when it's their OWN DAMN FAULT for leaving their wallets and ID at home?

I like how you magnify the mistake of the customer service rep, while minimizing your own, when the whole situation started because of your own mistake.

Interesting timing of your blog. Today I just had $132.00 put back in my account which someone in the Philipines withdrew. The fraud person/service rep told me it was probably nothing I had done -- they probably just got lucky with a random number generator (was it just 16 digits or with the security code, 19?). While I spent a week waiting for my new ATM/debit card to come, I had to get cash the old fashion way of going to the teller. I don't recall that I gave the teller anything more than the withdrawal slip, but then it was the branch where I had opened up my account and go in to it all the time.

When I logged on to an account online, they wanted me to answer 3 security questions from 3 sets of 4. None of the questions made sense to me and I angrily e-mailed them about how stupid they are. When I asked what would happen if I forgot the answers I gave them, they replied just call us up and you can reset your answers. I gave them answers, but it still seems stupid.

". Your comment about a stolen wallet would be caught because the DL picture (presumably) wouldn't look like the person who stole it." There have been too many times when they never even looked at the picture on the driver's license. Furthermore, even if they look at the picture, those little-bitty pictures aren't that good, and it's likely that most good-looking dark-haired young women would pass with Jane's DL.

When I was in the Air Force, there were a number of cases of men who were under-aged borrowing or stealing someone else's ID to go drinking in the nearby college town. I don't think anyone ever got caught by a bartender who noticed that they didn't look like the picture on the ID. Two guys "got caught" when the driver crashed the car on the way back. He was killed. The passenger was wearing his seatbelt and was walking the next day, but faced a court-martial once they figured out two kids well under the drinking age had managed to get so thoroughly drunk. As for how well he looked like the picture on his stolen DL - they were both blond with short haircuts, and that was about the only resemblance. There was a one foot difference in height, which was listed on the DL, but nobody had paid any attention to that.

DLT: Well, I know that in the middle of last year a large national retailer (they never told us which, but we speculate Office Max or Wal-Mart) was keeping a database of debit card numbers and pins, which was then stolen and a lot of those people ended up with fraudulent charges. It could've been something similar (my employer learned of this from the company that does our card issuance).

As to tellers, well, as an employee of a relatively successful Texas bank I can tell you that tellers are the most commonly fired employees. We have commercial lenders who do nothing but bleed money out of their portfolios year after year, they still work here, but if a teller's drawer is off too often he/she will get canned pretty quick. Which is weird, because you'd think losing $20 to $30 million in loans over the course of a year would be a worse offense than giving a few customers $15-$20 extra.

A bank teller once demanded that my 11 year-old sister provide photo ID. How many 11 year olds even have photo ID? My sister went to a little private elementary school that didn't issue student IDs, and she obviously didn't have any ID from the DMV.

Luckily I had my freshly minted driver's license with me, so I showed it to the teller and said, "Here's my ID. This is my sister, we have the same last name and people tell us we look alike." She agreed and processed the transaction.

Another time I was pulled over by a cop and he asked how old my sister was (she was in the back seat). I told him she was 14. But he demanded photo ID. Again, why would a 14 year-old need photo ID?

I guess the next step is for photo IDs to be required of all people from birth.

Christina: Your sister was withdrawing from her account and couldn't prove her identity? How did they authenticate her on starting the account? How did they plan to authenticate her in the future?

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