Asymmetrical Information

"Apparently, this means I am not a real American, and therefore don't get to talk about immigration. Only real Americans, who care about this country, get to vote."

Well, supposedly, only those who are citizens get to vote. Whether they are bible-thumpers whose knuckles drag on the ground, or latte-sipping, chic MiniCooper-driving Progressives in NY/DC, if you are a citizen, you get to vote.

You need to tell that to Juan, Jesus and Jorge, who are the overseers of the agricultural workers in the San Joaquin Valley. You start to want to make voting a little bit harder in lotus-land, when, on election day, you see these pimps for the agribusinesses gather up their groups of 'guest workers' (yes, they are still out there) and drive them to the local voting station. They proudly vote, then go right back to the fields to work, as they chatter on, discussing their 'patriotic duty' (which is equal to that when they vote for their fav Mexican politician during their elections).

The Democrats who run for office in Southern California rarely worry about telling the illegals/Refugees how to vote. When they're caught doing it, though, of course there is no follow up and, if there is an article, you really can't find it, buried like it is on page B99.

It's a bit shameful to realize the strongest coalition possible has been formed between the neocon business-types and the Progressive media and legislatures. The poor old knuckle-dragging evangelicals have about as much chance with this group, as they would with a group of ravening Jihadiis with very sharp, neck-massaging knives. I can only hope the common-sense of the mass of Americans, red or blue, can overwhelm those seeking greater riches and power.

IHOP is a great place to eat, especially the Swedish and German pancakes.

how come all Americans aren't fat

Wait a few years.

Depending where you're at in the DC area, you should try breakfasting at:

http://www.originalpancakehouse.com/phm_specialties2.html (thought I'd point you to the two house specialties)

http://www.eggspectations.com/

I'd try to comment on the Red vs. Blue color divide, but I think we should focus on what unites us in this country, instead of what divides us. Pancakes seem like a good place to start.

Megan,

You're buying a Mini Cooper? Has this been announced before?

I'm more of a loyal MR reader, but I keep up pretty well on JG.net. I don't remember seeing any mention of you buying a car.

If you start driving a car, I'll stop being fat. This could be the start of a Red-Blue rapprochement. (Can Red Staters use French? I know we don't say "detente"!)

(Congrats on the car!)

--Colin

No, this is a very new development.

start actually addressing your disagreements.

Well, we kinda tried that, and you called us racists and crypto-Nazis. And if that isn't "preening," then I don't know what is.

You didn't, RMc; no one has. The "addressing" consists of asserting, on no evidence, that previous groups were different. They weren't. There is a reason that Samuel Huntington is the only damn historian who has ever tried to argue that they are, and his evidence is less than overwhelming; previous immigrant groups had all sorts of trouble.

I didn't call you a racist; you chose to interpret my exasperated take on the only *actual* difference between the experience of Mexican and other previous groups of immigrants, as calling you racist. Perhaps other people on the pro-immigration side have called you a racist; I didn't, or certainly didn't mean to.

How does someone like you fit into a Mini? And once you've gotten in, how do you get back out?

At least it will be good for parallel parking.

The Mini Cooper really ties together that list of Yuppy descriptors. I laughed out loud in a place where I'm supposed to be quiet.

And I really hate the red state/blue state divide. California had more Bush voters than any other state, and Texas had more Kerry voters than any state (outside of California and New York).* While this is obviously an artifact of size, the point remains that there are a great many people in both places (each somewhat regarded as the epitome of red or blue) who don't fit the stereotype.

Indeed, even many California conservatives would view the flyover blue states as being part of the great mass of redneck America.

I do not mean this comment to be snarky. I really, honestly want to figure this out:

As I understand it, Jane, you are American. Why, then, do you use British spellings ("centre," "ise" rather than "ize," etc.)? If you were raised and educated in Britain or Canada it would make some sense. But you went to an Ivy League -- i.e., American -- school, so that doesn't explain it. Is it some sort of affectation, or is there something going on that I just don't get?

I used to think the same thing, until I learned that she was working (writing) for the Economist, a British publication. I think that she found it easier to stick with one instead of trying to switch back and forth...and reasonably chose to stick with the one where she was getting paid.

I've worked for a British paper for four years. I do all my journalism in British spelling; it slips into the blog.

And Alan, they've actually got a lot of leg room. In front. In back, you'd basically have to be a chihuaua to fit. But they drive beautifully, and they're easy to find parking with.

How does someone like you fit into a Mini? And once you've gotten in, how do you get back out?

Actually, I'm taller than Megan and weigh 300 lbs, and find Coops about the most comfortable car around that smaller than an SUV (or my 10 year old Mercedes E320).

All I can figure is that they're just bigger on the inside than they are on the outside.

Megan and Charlie

If you've ever seen Dr. Who you'll understand that things bigger on the inside than the outside are a British speciality.

There actually is a biography of Alex Issonyis (the designer of the original Mini) which is quite good.

Note it also gives a lie to the notion that we all *must* have SUVs if we are over X foot tall.

I can vouch for their size (a 6'4" friend of mine is quite comfy in one).

However I also note their reliability is not supposed to be great.

And have you ever known a BMW that had a low repair bill, even for a very small fix?

Megan and Bob

On spelling, does the North American edition of The Economist use American spelling? I know the content is slightly different, and the section order.

(believe it or not, there is such a thing as English Canadian spelling, which is distinct from American or British spelling)

I spent years here (London) trying to convince my colleagues (to no avail) that the Oxford English Dictionary spelling of capitalization (as in market capitalization) is, in fact, capitalization, not capitalisation.

Years of red circled memos being returned has meant I cannot now but spell it (incorrectly) as capitalisation.

It's worth remembering that to a large extent it's not "blue states" and "red states".

It's "blue major urban areas" and "red everything else" (mostly).

(The only urban area that isn't blue that comes to mind is Salt Lake City, and it's still far bluer than the rest of Utah.

The famed 2004 election county-wide return maps really make that point clearly.)

(And I don't care if the Mini is for some reason stereotypically Yuppie-Progressive. Everything I hear about them suggests they're a blast to drive.)

I think the determination of whether you drive an SUV or a mini is a function of how likely you are to have passangers. Engineering around a driver seat isn't hard to do.

I secretly prefer the British spelling of "colour" and "centre" and such, although I won't use them in writing for fear of the red circles. I get enough grief for writing times in 24-hour increments (such that 5:00 pm is 17:00), and that only in emails and handwritten notes.

I sometimes get miffed about the "East Coast and California vs. The Redneck States" mentality, but I'm able to laugh when I think that our critiques of one another are pretty much as valid as a broad, class/regional stereotype can be.

Hey, Jane, congratulations on getting a new car. If your decision to by a Mini is irrevocable, stop reading now. If you can still change your mind, please consider Consumer Reports rates the Mini as "fair" in reliability (the fourth of five categories). There are lots of cars that should be more reliable -- some for much less money.

Having said that, the Mini has a lot going for it. I have several friends who love their Mini -- except for when it's in the shop.

A couple of things, Jane:

1. Your "Look at you -- you're all Americans" plea misses the point. There's no feud like a family feud. You don't get to really hate someone unless he or she can get under your skin.

2. Yes, there are honest differences and we kind of have universal suffereage. But the real anger that originates from each camp is personal.

There's a large swathe of lefties who really hate America and see only bad things in our country. And the left has an overabundance of over-educated but under-employed folks who likewise hate the conservative folks who are happy with their lot and want simply to enjoy the fruits of their labors. It's part envy and part a religeous thing (Lefitsm, being a religeon).

And there are lots of social conservative who think the lefties are wanton idolaters. But most conservatives just want the government to stick to its knitting (roads, bridges, common defense) and to keep its sticky fingers out of our pockets. But ALL conservatives have no use for "Americans" who hate America.

You didn't, RMc; no one has. The "addressing" consists of asserting, on no evidence, that previous groups were different. They weren't.

Nonsense. Several commenters have pointed out the vast differences between Mexican immigrants of 2007 and the Irish et. al. of a century ago. You simply don't want to believe them, for God knows what reason.

I didn't call you a racist

Bull. You were the one who started in with the "But the Mexicans are brown! And they speak Spanish!" crap, not me, and not anybody else. How else can such an attitude be interpreted?

Own up to your mistakes, Megan. Stubbornness, especially when your opponents have you dead to rights, is not attractive.

a MINI! super cool, and hey I know how the fit thing is a problem, so if the slipper fits...

but I must say, from a whole laundry list of BMW owners... bmw seem to have this curious affinity for electrical system problems, and I think that is a design thing, So it carries through to the MINI... but hey it's your car! I hope you like it, as they say sometimes you gotta get what you WANT, not what comes best in consumer reports...

how come all Americans aren't fat with these places littering the landscape

because IHOP is much less effective at promulgating homogeneous quality standards than say, McDonald's. The number of abandoned IHOPs currently serving as Chinese and Thai restaurants should serve as a clue.

my personal experience has been that the closer you are to Florida, the better the IHOPs are. I once briefly patronized a truly atrocious IHOP in Seattle at which the omelets were largely pancake batter.

I second the recommendation of the Original Pancake House. The chain is geographically spotty, and you usually have to seek them out, but I've found them in Portland, DC (near the Bethesda metro), Indianapolis, and Dallas. On the other hand, I've never seen them in cities as large as Seattle and Nashville.

If you find one, though, you'll forget all about IHOP. Good luck.

Meagan,

RMc is correct. You have not addressed the fact that Mexico's proximity to the USA, and its historical claims to the south-west are VERY different from the Irish, Greeks, Italians, Germans, etc. that came later.

You have also ignored the issue of volume, which is very different from proportion. 12 million people, of whom the majority speak the same language, is very different from 12 million people, of whom, 2 million speak one language, 1 million another, 3 million yet another, etc.

And to touch on Sigivald's comment (blue urban areas, red everything else), people with money (and there is a correlation with wealth and urban areas) can insulate themselves from the problems associated with illegal immigration (closing ERs, overcrowded schools, increase in crime), whereas, those of us who don't have this wealth cannot insulate ourselves from these problems. We at least see an association with these problems and the increase in illegal immigration (along with the stagnation in low-skill wages), and resent that nothing is being done to address it. This isn't racist. We care about our own circumstances. We don't want our kid's classes focusing on teaching children English, rather than content appropriate for their age. We don't want the local hospital failing because a large number of people use the ER for their primary care (and don't pay the resulting bill). We don't like the criminal culture that has developed with the incoming migrants (which was also present among prior immigrant waves, and which preyed disproportionately on the poor).

Frankly, Meagan, I can't help but view your approach on this topic as trolling for comments. You ignore reasonable objections for the status quo, you are unable to sympathize on how this negatively effects poor Americans, and you did infer racism for those who object (which is a rather effective bait, I might add).

What a coincidence. I had dinner at the IHOP in Mamaroneck on Friday night. Their pancakes are great. (They have burgers and other regular food too.)

I go there once a week or once every two weeks. Anyone who eats there every day or several times a day will likely put on weight unless they have Don Gorske's unique metabolism. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Gorske

A Cynical Taxpayer

Thanks for making that all clear.

I nearly fell out of my seat laughing with your stereotypes ;-).

those of us who don't have this wealth cannot insulate ourselves from these problems...

Seriously? This is really why you think that so many of us urbanite and near-urban people are on the pro-immigration side?

First, the type of wealth that it takes to insulate yourself from those problems is quite large: it is a very small percentage of the population that can a) live in a gated community away from "them" b) avoid use of hospitals when necessary c) pay to opt out of the public school system completely and d) have some sort of crime-protection service when walking the city streets.

Most of us just live here like everybody else. If anything, being in an urban cluster brings you into closer proximity to immigrants, etc, because it brings you into closer proximity to everything.

Just a thought.

Megan,
You're buying a mini cooper? That's great! I hope you get the 2007 model, and not the 2007 convertable because that is still based on the '06 version of the car. I have a 2005 and I like it, the quality is incredible. Everything feels solid. I would like to trade it in for an '07 but they are not available in jet black. That's what I want. Plus I'm ready for a 4 door. But really, the mini is great. You will find it very convenient. It is small, but virtually every cubic inch of the car is useful. I regularly seat 4 people in mine. I am 5'10" and I am perfectly comfortable in the back seat, as are my friends. The only time I had a problem was when I drove to the movies with 2 friends, both of whom are 6'6" tall, the one in front was okay but the one in back had to sit sideways. Okay this is a little off topic. Sorry about that.

Heh. The only thing that turns otherwise rational people into unhinged, irrational loons more quickly than the immigration debate is anything pertaining to Red Sox vs. Yankees.

And nice choice on the car. Hopefully we'll be getting the MIN Clubman Diesel here in the states soon....that'll be wifey's next car.

'D' has it right - you are buying a MINI, not a Mini.

This is just as well, unless the gig at the Economist requires debugging Lucas electrics and changing those funny rubber u-joints.

If you get a chance to look at an original, you'll be amused at the styling cues built into the new one.

"The "addressing" consists of asserting, on no evidence, that previous groups were different. They weren't."

Sure they were. They came through Ellis Island and stood in line like everyone else. That's way, way different than sneaking over in the back of a truck or something. That's the big difference that a lot of us here are trying to point out, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears so far.

Frankly, this red-state/blue-state nonsense made me tired when it was my ever-so-liberal neighbours complaining that "they" are a bunch of bible-thumping Jesus freaks, and it is every bit as fatiguing when it's coming from commenters who think that "they breed like cockroaches" and "they have a funny religion" are common objections to immigration heard mostly in weirdo evangelical circles.

' my ever-so-liberal neighbours complaining that "they" are a bunch of bible-thumping Jesus freaks, '

Whoa - Jesus freaks are sermon-on-the-mount lefties, bible thumpers are old testament and revelations righties.

Brad L,

You don't need to live in a gated community to avoid crime. You need to live in a good neighborhood. And good neighborhoods will cost more. Middle class people can afford them, but those working at low paying jobs are hard pressed to.

Second of all, the increase of illegal immigrants in the migrant farmers work force does effect the rural communities, I would think. The strength of rural communities is the informal networks that reinforce community values. People who don't integrate (even pseudo-WASPs like myself) cause some discord.

"They came through Ellis Island and stood in line like everyone else."

The wait was generally 0-3 days. They needed a little money and a valid travel passport, but even that was often ignored. Large numbers used falsified papers and aquired new identities when they came over. Even with such easy immigration laws back then, many still came into the country illegally.

Generally, you saved the money to make the trip. You got off the boat. If you didn't have TB or any obvious diseases - welcome to America!

Who's checking for TB at our border with Mexico?
Who's going to run around and check TB for all the "amnestied" undocumented Americans?

and you (or your community) provided your own health care, family support, religous requirements, everything except education - provided in English only.
Now can we talk about the 40% percent of the non-Mexicans who come in on visas and just skip? Since 1986, it has become technologically possible to track visas (or would have, had the project been outsourced instead of left up to the State Department) yet we are still not able to do this. Jane - do you really wonder why people are upset about this discussion? Anyone who has been the least bit aware of the various immigration bills is also aware that any roadblocks in the way of unrestricted immigration will only be ignored until they can be waived or eliminated. I am with the poster who said that this is basically a business subvention - and I propose that with the Internet, we can identify businesses hiring Illegal aliens and stop patronizing them. For the ag folks, why are they illegal - I thought that farmers could bring in laborers legally - just too much trouble, is it?

Approximately half of the population of the United States are red staters. Approximately half of the population of the United States are blue staters. Look at each other. You are all real Americans. You all get to have opinions on how things should be run. Neither of you is the more authentic, moral, or freedom-loving group. All of you hold opinions for the same reason as those hating you across the aisle: a mixture of self-interest, conveniently cultivated ignorance, rational analysis, and high moral principle. Stop preening yourselves on what an altogether finer breed you are and start actually addressing your disagreements.

(swoons)
Ms. Galt, that was so freakin' beautiful.
Will you marry me?

"...and you (or your community) provided your own health care, family support, religous requirements..."

In other words, immigrants were treated just like other Americans. Should today be different?

"...everything except education - provided in English only. "

Simply false. My grandmother was educated in a Philadelphia public school in German.

When people act like this, they lose the ability to be taken seriously as Americans.

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