Asymmetrical Information

You can't live in Georgetown...

http://www.janegalt.net/archives/009870.html

or just coincidence? I hope you'll forive me if you determine that I'm painting with an excessively broadbrush. Afterall, I hear it's your favorite.

Yes, good call ahem. After all, everyone knows its either obsessively calling, visiting, living with your parents, or cutting off all contact. Clearly helping your mother find a place to live is the first.

er, so I'm guessin you've gotten over the stickershock of paying up to $3000 a month in rent... yikes. 'dja ever think about the potential advantages of telecommuting from someplace else... [it'sa joke, I know the thought may have crossed your mind]...

so all I can offer is moral support, because everyone I know in the DC metro, lives a good bit away from it on purpose... luck to 'ya ;)

What is the difference between Foggy Bottom and West End (other than a couple of blocks)?

You hate college kids don't you?

I live on New Hampshire right near the Metro. I am not even sure which neighborhood I am in.

Actually, my mother decided to move here before I did, and my decision was independent from hers. But thanks for asking.

There aren't any services in Foggy Bottom, and it's all 60's and 70's high rises.

Lived in Foggy Bottom when I was there in college (a decade ago). It's a hell of a lot different than Manhattan, in that it sucks. There are, as Jane notes, no services. I'm partial to Georgetown but that's probably out of your price range.

I hope you'll forive me if you determine that I'm painting with an excessively broadbrush. Afterall, I hear it's your favorite.

What's wrong with Virginia and Maryland? As long as you are near a Metro, it shouldn't matter that you are not in DC proper. Check out the Crystal City/Alexandria area.

I'm very close to where I work right now, less than 10 min. away - and I love it.

Depending on where in the DC area you will work, or at least spend most of your time, it matters where you are. Of the places you've mentioned, I like Georgetown and West End best. Being me, though, I kind of like the Aleaxndria-Annandale-McLean areas now.

Haven't the Foggiest on a specific apartmentplex or specific structure...six months ago they were like hen's teeth.

Hasn't U St. been enjoying a crime wave?

Hasn't U St. been enjoying a crime wave?

You're leaving New York? I'm so heart-broken.

Anyway, good luck in D.C. and don't become a Nationals fan.

Good lord, we live in a distant suburb and telecommute to Georgetown and Rosslyn -- I make the 100-mile rt once or twice a week. We bought a shabby 3/3.5/2 and our mortgage is about 3k/mo. Two fireplaces, backs up to a huge nature preserve... it would be nice to be closer to things but wow three grand to eat and crap.

otoh we each drive about 30k mi/yr

Good lord, we live in a distant suburb and telecommute to Georgetown and Rosslyn -- I make the 100-mile rt once or twice a week. We bought a shabby 3/3.5/2 and our mortgage is about 3k/mo. Two fireplaces, backs up to a huge nature preserve... it would be nice to be closer to things but wow three grand to eat and crap.

otoh we each drive about 30k mi/yr

I don't think you will find any "neighbourhoods" at all unless you live at the British Embassy.

Heh. You have somehow managed to find the only place that it sucks to move to from New York (save New Jersey).

SF: It's no cheaper, and these radicals are irritating, but it's a pretty place.

LA: I feel fat, but things are a little cheaper, and gorgeous.

Chicago: I'm in a big, modern city, but I have so much disposable income!

Minneapolis: The culture here rivals New York's, but I can walk from my Victorian house on an acre lot to downtown in twenty minutes. Nine months a year. Plus, I am so rich here.

Every place else in the Midwest: I'm really, really rich here.

Boston: The inferiority complex is so pitiful. I'm from Manhattan, knuckleheads. I'll have a good time just to spite you.

etc., etc.

This fine apartment is available in DC and has been vacant for a bit:

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/apa/360628364.html

:)

Take your time looking around Dupont, Logan, and AM. I just finished apartment hunting in May and found that a lot of the rents in those areas were grossly inflated. There are deals out there, just take your time if you can, but as a New Yorker I suppose you know that already.

Also, if you're thinking about getting a car, parking off of the street in the alley behind your building is a good thing to keep an eye out for.

Jane

(wasted breath moment)

Really seriously look at Reston, VA and Bethesda MD, and maybe even College Park MD. A well designed suburb, with a downtown, can be just as pleasant as living in 'the city', without many of the downsides.

Many of the nicest neighbourhoods in America (Shaker Heights? in Cleveland, Park Slope in Brooklyn) were in fact, streetcar suburbs built out before WW1, or just after. You know, that you can still walk to the store, but are only 30 minutes from downtown. This is also true of Baltimore (I can't remember the name of the neighbourhood, but it's up around the Catholic College, and was featured in the movie 'The Accidental Tourist'-- the houses are completely gorgeous).

(slightly less wasted breath moment)

I would be careful about Georgetown. It struck me that the place was 1. dangerous at times 2. overrun with tourists 3. had lousy transport links 4. expensive in the way that only a place overrun by lobbyists and bankers and politicians can be. Parking would also be a complete nightmare.

Dupont Circle is very nice, albeit very expensive.

Note I am not making these views on the basis of cost of living, taxes etc. but simply on having seen the neighbourhoods-- quality of life issues.

Washington just isn't a 'city' in the way New York is. It's a much smaller place than that ('10 Miles Square' according to the Constitution, I believe). So the dynamics of living there are different.

I don't know about now, but in the late 80s Washington was *much* scarier than New York. I know New Yorkers think they know everything there is to know about streetcrime, but my impression was in Washington it was far more serious, you were much likelier to get shot, if mugged. Downtown at night was completely deserted, and a (black) woman coming out of the WhiteHouse actually told us to get out of there.

The reason being perhaps that NYC is a big city, and so there are safe bits and unsafe bits, each of quite a size. DC is quite a compact city, and the 'nice' bits were really only to the West and Northwest. So it's like as if every mugger in the Bronx went down to midtown to commit their crimes.

I had a friend who lived on the 'safe' side of that park (Rockway?) in NW. One night, a drive by shotgunned to death his neighbour, in the alley right behind his house. He heard a bang, thought it was a car backfiring, and 15 minutes later he had 5 police cruisers surrounding the house. She was out walking the dog, about 9pm. OK an isolated incident, but still a measure of how even a safe neighbourhood can get freaky.

Can I nominate Arlington for 'honorary District' status? It's within the ten-mile square, was District until retroceded to Virginia in 1846. AND restaurants, culture, dog parks. If you locate near the Orange Line, easier to get to downtown than Mt Pleasant, way safer than Logan. Further bonus: you deal with the Virgina DMV instead of the District's.

I lived in this english basement at 17th and T 14 years ago. The rent was $850 then and the neighboorhood much less safe.
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/apa/363513847.html

No hardwood floors but it might suit your mother as it is a two bedroom.

jkm

and here's one for you that's just a few blocks from your mother.

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/apa/363446763.html

This probably isn't 700 sq ft but it is on one of the quaintest blocks in DC.

this is in a very nice building for $2050.
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/apa/363354577.html

As others have said, there are areas in VA and MD that have all the amenities of a nice, walkable urban neighborhood but also have Metro stations and hence easy access to lots of other nice city areas (including DC). Bethesda and Arlington, to name just 2 areas.

Your family must be a happy one. I could never live in the same city as my family. (Living in the same city as my wife's family, however, is no problem for me.)

Megan, I don't think you would've gotten so many "but consider at least Metro-accessible MD and VA" responses if you hadn't just mentioned "no matter the tax advantages." You should have said "no matter the savings," as it's not just taxes but also rents that are cheaper further out.

It's not just taxes or other savings, it's crime and aesthetics and homogeneity and discomfort with being part of a system that fails so many of its willing or unwilling participants. Two words, Marion Berry. Cleaner air. Less noise. Scenic landscape. Home ownership. Public school. Seven Eleven. Strip mall. No bars. Long drive. Big car. Karate lessons. Day care. Hijacking thread. Later on.

There aren't any services in Foggy Bottom

Is "services" a New Yorkism meaning public transportation?

It seems to me that you're too caught up in names and categories, and that you were spooked by your brief sojourn in the Maryland suburbs of DC.

Many neighborhood names in New York and all those in Washington are determined by the usage of realtors. If you tell a realtor that you want to live in one of a few specific neighborhoods, you've raised your rent by thirty percent. You've raised it by more, if the names you give match those most commonly mentioned in the entertainment pages of alternative newsweeklies.

City and state names are as bad a bugbear. Next time you travel, ask your seatmate where he's from. If he says 'New York' or 'Washington', the chances are excellent that he is referring to a city having eighteen or seven million residents respectively, not a legal jurisdiction that circumscribes a mere seven or not quite half a million people during the hours of darkness. Unless he's white, prosperous and proud of never having read the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Times, he certainly isn't referring to the areas that hold barely a hundred thousand flighty souls south of Fourteenth Street in New York or in Near Northwest DC.

Instead of asking realtors and other strangers to help you find underpriced living quarters in areas favored by naifs from the countryside, spend a little time searching out city blocks well situated in relation to your own needs. Look at a subway map, pinpoint the destinations that you must frequent on deadline, those from which you will occasionally need to stumble home whilst inebriated, and others that bring to mind the toting of suitcases or shopping bags or the letting of rental cars. Think about the money value of time : how long a train ride is acceptable and what allowances must be made for transfers, walking, crossing wide streets or (god forbid) bus rides. Use a pencil to shade along the most convenient corridors shown on your map. Now compare this map with one showing all the sites of murderous events in the last year or five. (With your research skills, you'll be able to uncover that vital information about DC in under an hour). Plot the location of grocery stores, city markets and farmer's markets. If it matters to you, mark pleasant waterways, parks and squares, overly noisy roads and nightclubs, etc. Now spend a day visiting only those blocks nearest the dozen or so subway stations that meet most of your criteria. Walk around. Inquire about every residential building that appeals to your eye. Strike up a chat with some old codger who'll tell you which properties are nice, which not.

When looking for a place to live, it's easy to be trapped by habits of mind which only made sense when you were established in a comfortable home. For the moment, re-work your budgetary categories. The one that matters includes not only rent and redecoration costs, but also local transportation and taxes. Very substantial differences in housing prices can be offset or even overwhelmed by other choices : whether you occasionally rent a car or pay for every month for car ownership, including insurance, gas, repairs, parking rental or parking tickets, not to mention the high cost of mental aggravation; whether you pay $1.35 or $4.00 or $14 plus gas for a train ride to work; and whether you pay DC or Virginal rates on income, property, retail purchases, restaurant purchases and cigarettes.

This year, you should also consider whether Renter is a category that you might escape. It's a buyer's market right now; which means that leases for any given apartment in the Washington metropolitan area cost a third again as much as they cost two years ago. You would be better off buying a condo or co-op, especially one likely to leap in value once the market rebounds. If you have to leave suddenly, you can rent it out for a goodly price.

I suggest visiting and running the numbers for areas around some of these stations: Rosslyn through Clarendon, perhaps also Crystal City in Virginia; Waterfront and Navy Yard south of the mall, Capitol South and Eastern Market east of the mall, and Archives through Mount Vernon in the old and rapidly re-vitalizing downtown core. It's probably not worth researching any Maryland stations. They are all fairly distant from your probable work and party places.

If pressed, and given that you can honestly come to terms with the DC tax structure and skewed racial balance, I'd suggest looking at refurbished office towers between Chinatown and Penn Ave; otherwise, check out newer but no less urban districts right across the Potomac. If you can't escape the lure of the historical, prefer Capitol Hill over isolated Georgetown. Your mum might enjoy a co-op by the river in Southwest; perhaps she'll consider buying an underground parking stall for you there.

Hey Meg, you know the building you visited me in that my friend lives in at Adams Morgan? They have a 2br/2ba for about $2500 which includes utilities. Might that not be right for you Mom? I don't know if the rents have gone up significantly but that could work. I'll get you the information.

I just got a great place in Arlington. You're missing out not giving that side of the river a chance.

I just got a great place in Arlington. You're missing out not giving that side of the river a chance.

Why can't y'all accept the fact that Megan wants to reside in the District? My advice? Call some brokers. You shouldn't have to pay a fee just to look at places (or, only work with brokers who won't charge a fee unless they find and successfully get you accepted into a flat). My guess is there's a 90% chance in DC the landlord will pay the broker's fee (or at least a portion of it) anyway. Don't take Jaybee's advice and spend hours and hours doing research. Your time's too valuable. Better to let professionals handle it, and then make sure the lease is written in such a fashion that it's not impossible to get out of if the place proves to be a bad fit (you shouldn't have to lose more than a security deposit).

Good luck.

I'm afraid I like old, urban buildings. And I don't want to take $25 cab rides every time I go out, or run to catch an 11:30 metro when I'm having a good time, which means that I am not moving to the suburbs no matter how fantastic the cost advantages, nor ensconcing myself in one of Bethesda's 80 million anonymous high rises. If I were married with kids, this would be completely different. But I'm not, and therefore, I am not moving to the suburbs no matter how fantastic the cost advantages.

The DC metro operates (with caveats) until 3 AM on Friday and Saturday night.

Jane Galt revealed: Paris Hilton on a budget.

The one place outside the District that STILL might be worth considering given all your caveats would be Old Town Alexandria, which is a (small) city in its own right, with plenty of options for going out and beautiful old townhouses not unlike those in DC...except nicer and cheaper.

Once you get settled, if you want to hang out sometime with a bunch of crazy gun bloggers, there are a few of us here. I live in Philadelphia myself, but my girlfriend lives in No VA, so I spend a lot of time in The District on the weekends.

If I understand you correctly, you are looking for an urban atmosphere/lifestyle. I assume that you don't want pay a small fortune for it. May I suggest to you that you take a look at Baltimore? Your cost of living would be significantly less with a place right on the MARC train lines. I have several friends that commute (on the MARC trains) into DC, and they love it. Some of them don't own cars or have a driver’s licenses. Plus we’d love to have you up here. :)

Why is Capitol Hill not on your list? I live in a quite lovely neighborhood near Eastern Market.

When I lived in DC for a summer, I stayed in an apartment just east of Scott Circle, on N Street between 14th and 15th. That area is nicer than it was then, but there are a couple older buildings on the street that are probably still fairly cheap. It's an easy walk to the Metro, and to Dupont Circle.

But I'll second everyone else--you really should look at the areas of Alexandria off the yellow line (old town).

Megan,

I don't understand why cheap cab rides and late Metro service are so important if you plan to get a car, as you have said. Unless you are planning to get absurdly drunk 7 days a week I think you are overestimating your potential use of public transportation.

Plus, there is late night Metro service on the weekends into the inner 'burbs of Arlington and Alexandria. Unless you routinely party until 4 am, I don't think you'll have the problem of getting stranded if you do decide to depend on Metro.

I'm already living in Silver Spring; I'm not unfamiliar with the DC transport system. Since I won't drive after even a moderate amount of alchohol consumption, I spend a lot of time running for trains.

I have nothing against Virginia; it's just not for me.

Don't do Shaw. It is the transitional neighborhood that never quite transitioned. Look into Glover Park. If you want value, check out Waterfront (SW), though, it is a bit sterile but safe, diverse, and middle class.

Jane

Suggestions re MD and VA were never about cost or taxes, per se, but about quality of life (apartment with the right specs, near public transport, safe neighbourhoods).

This may still apply to your mum, if not to you?

Over to the District. There are some good suggestions above, including neighbourhoods you didn't mention eg Capitol Hill? Time to do the legwork, girl ;-), or at least find a broker ;-).

Ryan

Baltimore is (was) a fantastic town: a lot of history and atmosphere. Also a lot of art and music.

Is it still as unsafe as it was in the 80s though? I had friends at Hopkins with terrible stories of being broken into (and tied up, and threatened) and of muggings at gunpoint.

Maybe I watched too many episodes of Homicide?

"If I were married with kids, this would be completely different. But I'm not, and therefore, I am not moving to the suburbs..."
-Jane

do you realize how badly you just jinxed yourself? or maybe it was on purpose, like washing your car to make it rain...

:D

Really the only place you want to be is "Greater Dupont" (Logan is just one extremity of this Jim-made geographical entity).

Just start at Dupont Circle and start heading east (down street numbers 19th Street, 18th Street, ...) until you find what you can afford.
The 17th Street strip between P and R is a great locus for search. My rule was always "no more than 2 blocks form The Fox & Hounds".

One great advantage of Dupont: no need for a car at all.

Georgetown is actually not that convenient a place to live (unless you work there). It is nice, provided you are not in an apartment over a storefront on M or Wisconsin, but I don't see the attraction.

Chevy Chase and Bethesda are really the northern parts of DC that happen to be in the state of Maryland. Taking the metro from Bethesda to Downtown is faster than getting there from Georgetown, which, if done during rush, is probably most quickly done by walking.

In the spirit of encouraging Megan to consider places that ignore her stated preferences, I suggest that she bypass DC altogether and get a place in Flagstaff (Arizona) and telecommute. It is very safe there and the multitude of muggers and unsavory sausages of DC will have trouble finding her up in the mountains more than halfway across the country. (Though, Osaka is a much safer place than even Flagstaff, and worthy of consideration as well).

Sheesh. I suppose if she ever blegs for recommendations on a good wine, we will gather our mental resources to convince her that she really wants soda.

I agree with thhe commentor who suggested the Waterfront in SW. It's walkable to downtown and the National Mall. There is a Metro and a Safeway, and you can get alot of space for your money. I lived down there for 5 years when I first moved to the District. Now, I live in Logan near the Whole Foods on P St. I bought before the Whole Foods went in, when 14 and Rhode Island was the "hooker spot". It's very expensive now, but it's one of the best neighborhoods in the city right now (Whole Foods, Carribou Coffee, Starbucks, Logan Hardware, CVS, Barrel Liquor,a couple of art galleries, and several good restaurants). P.N. Hoffman has a couple of rental buildings in the area: http://www.pnhoffman.com/rental/rental.asp

I was born, grew up, and lived almost 50 years in the DC area. Recently moved to Indiana. God, I am so glad to be out of that area. Horrible traffic, crime, noise, pollution, heat, stratospheric prices. I doubt your thinking processes, Jane.

"What is the difference between Foggy Bottom and West End (other than a couple of blocks)?"

I think it is her Anglophilia kicking in. West End is a fashionable part of London, while Foggy-Bottom sounds like the name of a Benny Hill character.

Valuethinker,

I wasn't here in the '80s, but I can tell you Baltimore is just like most cities - there are bad areas and there are good areas. There are some sections of Baltimore that are very alive and vibrant. There are some that are resurgent. And, to be blunt, there are some parts of town that look like Detroit. I’ve never been mugged or threatened and I’ve lived here 5yrs. There are sections of town I would be uncomfortable living in though.

Yes there is crime here. Yes it is as bad as Homicide and The Wire makes it out to be. And, Yes the City of Baltimore should do more to combat it effectively. However, These TV shows generally do not show the areas were people area living and working in complete comfort and ease. I don’t think a police show with very little crime would have any ratings. I could be wrong about that though- Andy Griffin did it for years.

Jaybee has a good point about buying. The $3k your mom is willing to spend would be the mortgage payment on about a half-million dollar condo. She could get something quite nice for much less than that. You could probably find something for half that for yourself.

The downside is that when the Libertarians come to power and shrink the federal government, your investment will be ruined as DC property values plummet.

Njorl

From what a friend tells me, the overbuilding in the Washington Condo market is still very evident. Might be worth waiting until 2008?

The political put option you describe is well out of the money, though.

Ryan

Thanks for that. It's a great city, and I wasn't seeking to diss it.

It sounds like it is in better shape than it was in the late 80s (the heights of the crack wars).

Now, to find a detective fiction writer who has done for Baltimore what Pelecanos has done for Washington, Maceo Redfield (Nichelle Tramble), George V. Higgins for Boston...

(probably the guys who wrote the (non fiction) Homicide, and 'The Corner'). But the city cries for a great detective fiction writer.

The basement apartments in Georgetown are a possibility.

I have a brother who lives off of Wisconsin near the Cathedral. IT's nice

Bite the bullet and go for Dupont Circle or Adams Morgan (near the Metro stations). You know you want to....(Georgetown loses out because of its lack of a Metro station)