Asymmetrical Information

Sigh, this is also the same Norman Mailer who helped get slime ball Jack Abbott out of prison. The latter murdered a waiter shortly after his release. Mailer currently is expanding upon his earlier “White Negro” nonsense. He is living proof that the degrees often granted in the Liberal Arts departments of our nation’s colleges are more fraudulent than a three dollar bill. Nobody possessing a lick of sense should be taking Mailier seriously. It is a scandal that the New York Times publishes his crap?

Am I advocating censorship? Not in the least. I merely contend that Norman Mailer has not earned the right to be published in a major publication. He arguments are childishly immature and undeserving of respect.

"not earned the right to be published in a major publication"??

Well, that's curious. If I recall correctly, ol' Norm has won numerous awards for writing, including the National Book Award (once) and the Pulitzer (twice). He's also got an engineering degree from Harvard and battlefield experience from WWII.

So, just what does it take to qualify for a "major publication" in your book, Dave?

I understand why they published it -- I just don't understand why he wrote it.

But. . . engineering degree from Harvard? I wasn't aware that Harvard had an engineering program.

On the other hand, stripped of its Maileresque rhetoric, this piece could be characterised as saying that the intent in declaring war on Iraq had little to do with weapons of mass destruction and everything with a desire (perhaps for the most praiseworthy reasons) to carry out a display of strength in the Arab region. Which, last time I looked, was the official line of the Administration when talking to people who get angry about being lied to less than myself.

oh yeh, and this history of the Yale engineering department suggests that Harvard has had an engineering program since 1865.

http://www.eng.yale.edu/history/highlights.htm

Other people listed on google as well as Mailer claim to have been studying aeronautic engineering at Harvard in the 1940s, so I'm guessing he's not making it up.

“If I recall correctly, ol' Norm has won numerous awards for writing, including the National Book Award (once) and the Pulitzer (twice). He's also got an engineering degree from Harvard and battlefield experience from WWII.”

Oh well, I must admit that I did like Norman Mailer’s “The Naked and the Dead.” But so what? He is superb stylist who can occasionally write some good fiction. However, Mailer’s nonfiction work is just trash. What about his many awards? Many of them have nothing to with merit. He merely kisses the rear ends of the radical avant garde Liberals---and they reward their obedient slut. It’s as simple as that. Norman Mailer is a well paid whore!

>>However, Mailer’s nonfiction work is just trash

Really? "The Fight", his book about the Ali/Foreman fight in Zaire, is trash?

You're claiming to have read books you haven't read again, aren't you DT?

"Really? "The Fight", his book about the Ali/Foreman fight in Zaire, is trash?"

One does not need to read everything that Norman Mailer wrote to conclude that his nonfictional works are mostly pure garbage. My comments are primarily directed to his silly rantings on racial issues, politics, and criminal justice. Have we already forgotten Jack Abbott? Indeed, the New York Liberal intellectual establishment takes good care of its sluts.

There is something about our literary culture that has caused its prominent members to believe that words are the same thing as facts, more important than the objects they describe.

It's a case of hyperbole gone very wrong. Take Derrida's assertion "Nothing exists outside the text." A sensible person might interpret this to mean that our worldview is informed by the language we use to describe it. But that's an old idea, and old ideas don't get you published. So "nothing exists outside the text" gets blown up into a big! new! idea--like "words really are more important than the things they describe!" It really isn't a new idea at all, but it sounds like one if you write it up in sufficiently dense incomprehensible Derrida-esque language.

A lot of humanities professors spend their time engaging in mental gymnastics like this, and you can't blame them personally. They have to get published. The problem is that they don't leave the illogic in their offices. It spills over into the classroom and into their political expression.

And my family wonders why I haven't finished my MA in French literature yet...

"And my family wonders why I haven't finished my MA in French literature yet..."

Your family might mean well, but they fail to comprehend the cold reality of your predicament. You most likely will have to become an intellectual slut to "earn" a MA in French literature. Heck, you would have more self respect selling your body for $2 a trick. I further argue that Jacques Derrida’s fame and glory is overwhelming evidence of today’s academic corruption.

I don't know if the war was nothing more than therapy for white American males like me (it didn't work, thanks for asking), but the basic argument that WMDs were not the real reason for war is hardly baroque.

But can I change the subject? How about Mailer's contention that the American military was "extraordinarily good, if essentially untested"? Untested? We've been in wars big and small approximately every two years since 1980. We have the most tested military on earth. I wonder what on earth led him to make that peculiar statement?

David, one becomes an intellectual slut before one can obtain an MA in French Literature. an interesting view of the human condition maybe even maileresc?

Of course, Mr. Thomson's comments raise the question of which literary awards are valuable, since the Pulitzer and the National Book Award are merely tools of the Liberal Elite.

Or perhaps he is of the opinion that only authors with no awards have merit? I suppose that does open the door to literary greatness for such luminaries as David Horowitz and Matt Drudge.

Kevin-

"I wonder what on earth led him to make that peculiar statement?"

I think it's a result of Mailor's being a part of the WWII generation; after all, compared to WWII, pretty much everything since Korea looks like a police action.

>>It really isn't a new idea at all, but it sounds like one if you write it up in sufficiently dense incomprehensible Derrida-esque language.

Since Derrida's ideas in Grammatology /were/ new, they weren't very much to do with the statement "language shapes our worldview" and Derrida's language is neither dense nor incomprehensible, your family might be surprised that you haven't got a masters in French literature, but I'm not.

"I wonder what on earth led him to make that peculiar statement?"

Gosh, you don’t seem to be paying attention. Norman Mailer is a radical Liberal slut---and therefore doesn’t have to worry about being rational. He’s been getting away with this nonsense for years. Why should he stop now?

What is the best definition for most of today’s Liberals? That’s a very easy question to answer: whore! They simply put up their finger to the wind, and see which way the wind is blowing.

For someone whom no one takes him seriously, you all sure are expending a lot of time and effort talking about Mailer. And I'm pretty sure he -- laughing all the way to the bank -- couldn't care less what conclusions you reach.

Does it ever occur to anyone that people like Mailer and Vidal get a lot of press because they are obnoxious and because they get a rise out of people? I would hardly use folks like these as models for the typical literary figure.

“For someone whom no one takes him seriously, you all sure are expending a lot of time and effort talking about Mailer.”

Unfortunately, one cannot ignore Norman Mailer because of the enormous destruction he causes. I may be able to see through his nonsense, but other’s often cannot.

Excuse me, did you also actually say that the New York Times might have printed his garbage merely for its shock value? Since when is childish iconoclasm a sufficient enough reason to be published?

I thought "The Naked and the Dead" was a little overrated. As to Mailer's political commentary, it's probably no worse than the average Village bartender's.

You most likely will have to become an intellectual slut to "earn" a MA in French literature.

Well, the classwork and exams are finished. And I doubt writing a thesis on 16th-century essays will make me into an "intellectual slut."

Heck, you would have more self respect selling your body for $2 a trick.

Let us not exaggerate, please. The whole point of my post was that hyperbole does not serve us well.

I further argue that Jacques Derrida’s fame and glory is overwhelming evidence of today’s academic corruption.

I tend to agree with you, but more because of his writing than his politics. Derrida is a horrible, horrible writer. Anyone who strings together gobs of unintelligible, unasthetic, unenlightening prose shouldn't even be published, much less revered.

Derrida's language is neither dense nor incomprehensible

D^2, thank you for the belly laugh.

Are Liberals inherently vile and slutty? Not in the least. Liberal Democrats, for instance, have much to be proud of regarding the fight for black civil rights. Sadly, conservative Republicans disgraced themselves for being so indifferent and callous.

The Progressive Movement also did much good. The struggle to end child labor and advance workers rights was morally praiseworthy. Today’s Liberals, however, have become slutty probably due to the fact that they are the “establishment.” It now the easy way to fame and fortune.

Dave-

"[His] arguments are childishly immature and undeserving of respect"

"Today?s Liberals, however, have become slutty probably due to the fact that they are the ?establishment.? It now the easy way to fame and fortune."

Is the placement of these two bits in the same comment thread part of a larger ironic point that is elluding me?

Is it a Zen thing?

Dave-

"[His] arguments are childishly immature and undeserving of respect"

"Today?s Liberals, however, have become slutty probably due to the fact that they are the ?establishment.? It now the easy way to fame and fortune."

Is the placement of these two bits in the same comment thread part of a larger ironic point that is eluding me?

Is it a Zen thing?

If anyone's being put off reading Derrida by this thread, don't be. It's not pre-school stuff and you have to apply yourself -- just as you would if you were reading high-level theory in any field, particularly economics -- but his prose is in fact (assuming it has been rendered well by his translator) witty, charming and clear.

Ah. D^2, Gayatri Spivak's translation of De la grammatologie is so liberal, it's a crib. Not that I object; she's done an excellent job of making him more accessible.

I don't find him "charming" even in translation, but it doesn't surprise me that your idea of charming differs from mine.

D2, i'm shocked that you can not read Derrida in his native tongue. It is my understanding that jack is a much more difficult read in french given the overall weakness (lack of complexity/exactness) of the langauge.

Mailer is past his prime, he knows it and the world knows it.

"I thought 'The Naked and the Dead' was a little overrated."

Turned into a first rate war flick by the mighty Raoul Walsh of White Heat fame, showing his usual mastery of screen space, action, pacing, etc. Beautifully photgraphed in Panama by Joe Lashelle with music by Bernard Herrmann.

And yeah, Mailer's an idiot.

"D2, i'm shocked that you can not read Derrida in his native tongue."

Let's not get to carried away with the importance of reading Derrida in the original French. I have also read his responses from a English speaking interview: the man is a &*%$# jerk in any language!

david, given you're overall comment, maybe we should not get to carried away with reading Derrida at al.

The Thompson/Davies wars, round #11!

norman mailer writes to get a rise out of his readers.....

hmm.....
i wonder why not.
having read him at length - ( though out of his cultural context ) one gets the feeling that his rants are actually against a whole lot of people who think that they think.
in that sense it is perfectly fair for a man with such a sense of himself as he does to let off steam as he does - and if he has survived a literary career of nearly fifty years or so - then there must be something to that which he does say ( and i speak from a part of the world that is radically different to the american continent )
and then there is also the consideration that he is not really interested in being seen as "authority" on anything that he speaks of - just that he seems to epitomise a kind of heartfelt and passionate spirit of enquiry.....
but if he modulates his speech and idiom to "suit" the "intelligensia" of the day - he shall have lost the essence of what he actually seems to be screaming - you have a head? - USE IT!!!
ego-gratification and all that jazz is cool - and i'm not really sure that we are in any position to comment on how much and to what extent he is permitted to indulge himself ...... if stressed beyond a point - we know that even we shall not stand to scrutiny.

i suppose he means to provoke a similar passionate engagement of one's reason with the flux of one's ecology.
its a pity none of us really manage to "rise" to the occasion.

us military tested - hmmm......i'm a major in probably the second/third largest army in the world and one which has been continuously fighting "terror" for over twenty years now with an average of twenty such deaths on daily basis......
i'd go along with what our man says in the sense that the US military ( some of them trained with our troops recently ) are "soft" - with not much of the kind of skill and acumen that one requires to fight and fight well in the streets and jungles.....
debatable point of view - i agree.

i suppose he also bemoans the loss of imagination in the general public - and that is the essence of his misunderstood fury......
i could be wrong of course - so correct me.
( of course i mean to imply that one reads between his lines to get a sense of what he means )
:D

just to stress upon a lil point though - for those who talk of "facts" -
there is a curious lil distinction between information and intelligence.

hehe!
its ironic that these days when swamped with information - we seem to have lost the latter.

as regards their relationship - its chicken and egg.
intelligence codes information......into whatever form ( one is not too wrong here or so one surmises ) and then intelligence extracts intelligence from information.
facts are just that - letters in black and white.

have fun!!

curious though - the critique ( if that's what this post is ) of mailer's "theory" does no better on the same merits as that by which it seeks to assess/judge.

possible question ( all things set aside ) - how wrong is mailer actually?
lets contextualise and examine - where he errs and where he is on the ball.....

hmmmm........why dismiss him so easily?

so if we seem to imply that WE have heads ( and mailer does not - or its screwed on wrong ) lets DO better.......
no?

hehehe!

hmmm...reading between the lines, didn't think of that

if you read mailer's entire rant, he equates the white males lust for war on our inability to compete on the professional playing fields (basketball, football and baseball) turning to the only competitive (as in atheletic) field which white males still dominate the armed forces...but even mailer has to concede that there is no u.s. institution which is more fully integrated than the armed forces but he equivocates here as well by noting that white males dominate the upper echelons of the military (norman just a note white males dominate the upper echelons of the sports world as well).

imagine how upset those white males must have been when two of the chief spokesman for the armed forces turned out to be an african and arab american or the utter contempt those white males must have had when the first hero of the conflict turned out to be a female.

mailer, thank you for sharing our pain.

in ending, reading between the lines really didn't help

i suppose one is grateful for contextualising the argument
:D

i'd give what mailer says, a wider metaphor than the strictly defined "white" "american" "male" - since we do not have mailer with us to share what "precisely" he "intended" to say.
hvaing considered that - i'd like to know what happens to what he says....if the definition of the white american male be extended to encompass a mindset or attitude.....be it just of the men who call the shots ( which age do they belong to incidentally - these old fogeys....bush/rumsfield et al?)
what exactly is the "white american male" mindset?
to extend the argument just a bit further - what does that 30% of the population that is not easily classified as "educated" or "academic" feel?
how does it actually feel when in a crunch - i indicate to mailer's use of the words - its collective ego?
what exactly are their attention spans and what gets them going?
what and how are they likely to be roused and aroused?
what would make them feel better - if the state of the nation be what is described? if their status is as threatened as elucidated in teh post above?
what do those men in those offices of power and decisions feel? what are their info inputs? what are the attention spans available to them? what is the nature of their perspective? how many of them are actually statesmen ( as the word used to mean some time ago - are there any left? )how much are they permitted as leeway - in terms of international/national decisions?

one must remember - i feel.....that they are reasonable men as well......as any of us - and with the same "intelligence" and personal needs/desires/troubles/aggravations ( i'd find it difficult to answer if any one of theme turned around and said that just because he is in the position that he is in does not mean that he has to lose his sleep for whatever little gratitude ( is there any?? - truly?) that he gets from those that he does what he does for?)

errors and approximations of beliefs - scale them up and see what you get?
would the world really be any different if you replaced all these men with some kind of rigorously defined "reasonable" men?
that's the nature of democracy as it ages - and with a capitalist tendency.

THIS is what we actually bargained for when we set off on the ideals of democracy and capitalism - its the same story in this nation of mine as well - the world's largest capitalist ( slowly turning so from socialist ) democracy.....
so lets not complain....
no?

imagine how upset those white males must have been when two of the chief spokesman for the armed forces turned out to be an african and arab american or the utter contempt those white males must have had when the first hero of the conflict turned out to be a female
so we are back to mailer's "white negro" - eh?
( as a mindset of those who play/are compelled to deal with "power" )

seriously though - i do not mean to imply that this is a subject of study for some behavioral scientists or psychologist ( god knows we are blinded by science as it is - thanx but no thanx - not any more of it )......
how about poor ole common sense and reason and imagination and "knowledge" of our own natures?

TRex
hmmm...a dog speaking to an extinct species.

When I think of France or Germany, one thinks of nationallity, the motherland, the fatherland et al.

When I think of America, I look at a country engaged in an on going conversation about its ideals and the optimum manner to deliver those ideals to its entire populace.

When I read mailer I become cynical, because norman is always looking for a fight, a cause, whatever. poor ole common sense and reason and imagination and "knowledge" of our own natures
never come into play in norman's world.

tom:
extinct species - you bet!!!
( your shot is more accurate that you could guess :D )

hmmm.....okay - i guess what i'd say is that one could just stop conversing and register the possibility that there is no such full and final "OPTIMUM" manner.
this leads to the hypothesis that one can only keep on working at optimising the DELIVERANCE ( or is it delivery? heheh! ) of whatever ideals are the imperatives of the moment.
reasonable? ....and it keeps open the possibility that in the "process" of doing THIS - one might just arrive at a point wherein one can conclusively say whether there is any such definitive optimum to be attained - or not.
no?

as regards mailer - looking for a fight.....
that does not necessarily divorce reason or imagination from him.....or does it?
is that the actual basis of this lil disagreement of ours?
so we could drop all else and deliberate on this......
wotsay?

btw - thanx for the sustenance of response....
:D

well, as a white american male i can say with complete certainty that the war with iraq has improved my sex life, whitened my teeth, and helped me lose thirty pounds. my self esteem has shot through the roof, leaving a big hole up there, which is great because my initially miniscule penis is now seven feet long and i had nowhere to put it. maybe we should have more of these wars; we could have doctors prescribe them and the pharmeceuticals could advertise war on tv with the other drugs and have the announcer go through the side effects ["war is not for everyone; side effects may include death, maiming, insanity and / or other psychological problems, and the rejection of an ungrateful nation. ask your doctor if war is right for you."] i'm sure glad mailer has pointed this out for us; i wouldve missed my self esteem lift if he werent around

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