Asymmetrical Information

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Youth is wasted, please who the hell do you think you are saying that! You have no fucking room to talk!

Well now, there's a bit of intelligent commentary.

As one who has an apparently insufficient grasp of textual communication, could someone tell me if that's sarcasm or derision? My first guess is derision, which seems silly because none of the points are addressed.

Ah well.

Jack, dude. Pot, kettle, and black.

Even though you claim the universe does not revolve around me, I still love you.

I liked Orin Judd's take: It will be Vietnam until the last stake is driven into the last Boomer's heart.

Now I am a boomer, born in late 1947, but I have long been disgusted by the bizare combination of self-righteousness and narcissim of my cohorts. My question is if how could the boomers parents be the greatest generation if the raised the worst generation?

I'm puzzled by the perspective that something that happened 35 years ago is somehow so ancient that it's lost in the mists of history.

"Those who do not remember their history" and all that, you know.

To know where we've been, what we've done, and how we got to where we are today is *important*, don't you think?

Well, yes, but it's not exactly front page news that bad things happened in Vietnam, is it?

For something to make headlines, it should be something that is very important to the readers lives -- something that they will want to do something about. What, exactly, are we going to do about an alleged massacre, for which the evidence is long gone, that took place 35 years ago, under an administration that was hounded from office in disgrace, and under the command of military officers who are dead or shortly will be?

There is a difference between news and history and also between font page news and regular news. Front page news generally recounts important recent events (like yesterdays election), not something that happened 35 years ago. While the discovery of this historical massacre in Viet Nam should be reported (and it was), I don't see how it rates front page news status.

For some in that generation, protesting the Vietnam war was the defining moment in their lives. And for most of these people, it was the highlight of their lives. In order to change the world these people took jobs in universities, the government, the media and the legal profession.

I am anxiously waiting for their retirement. When they do, intellectual honesty in those institutions is going to take a giant leap upward.

...demanding that we all stay mired in their adolescence until the last one of them falls, still whining about the breakup of the Beatles, into a grave paid for by our Social Security taxes.

Too funny. Although the whining wasn't so much due to the breakup of the Beatles, as to the formation of Wings.

Wouldn't it be great if, when confronted with a question like "MAC or PC?", the candidate would say something along the lines of: "That's all fun and interesting to talk about at a saturday night cocktail reception with a bunch of your friends, but we're here to decide which Democrat will run for President of the United States, the strongest most powerful nation that is presently threatened by murderous barbarians that despise us for no other reason than that we live a happy and fruitful existence."

I have never voted for a Democrat (in 28 years) but I would vote for that guy.

WRT the last paragraph:
i'm sure it's very passe to declare one's love for ms. jane galt. i guess i'll have to get in line. none the less, in two years of reading, that has to be one of the most well written things she has said. beautiful!

"What, exactly, are we going to do about an alleged massacre, for which the evidence is long gone, that took place 35 years ago, under an administration that was hounded from office in disgrace, and under the command of military officers who are dead or shortly will be?"

Try to learn from our mistakes and take a look at the current military to see if safeguards have been put in place to try and avoid similar situations in the future?

In a time when we're at war, I'd think that instances like the one described are doubly important for the public and our military leaders to acknowledge and discuss.

I was born in the middle of the baby boom (1955) and thus was in the last group that had draft numbers drawn. Vietnam only colors my thinking in one way: we can't screw up like that again - win the military battles and lose the war in the press. (Sound familiar?)

As for those that view everything thru the lens of Vietnam or Watergate, I quote a line from a recent song by those baby boomers, the Eagles: "Get over it!"

liberal boomers seem to believe that only 3 things have ever happened in all of history:

1) Selma 1963
2) Vietnam 1964-1975
3) Watergate 1972-1974

so, all events that will ever occur in the future are 'just like..' one of the 3

Jesus, what a bunch of morons!

Anne,

What if I told you that Vietnam was a result of us learning from our "mistakes"?

Read Leslie Gelb's "The Irony of Vietnam: The System Worked" (iirc, that's the title, but those are the right words, anyway). Gelb notes that LBJ and his advisors were worried about repeating the "mistakes" of Korea, so they kept a tight rein on operations, refused to allow the military to fight "its own war," and viewed most military operations through a political prism, including constantly trying to reassure China that the US posed no threat to it.

Which, in turn, affected how the war was fought, and how it was discussed, at home and abroad.

The problem w/ the "lessons of history," and I should note I'm a fairly avid amateur military historian, is that they are whatever you, the viewer, want them to be. Korea as the lessons of Munich, Vietnam as the lessons of Korea, Gulf War I (DesertStorm) as the lessons of Vietnam, etc., etc.

Jane, the Vietnam war is an important part of American history. I suspect you want to ignore it because your pal Bush and filthy lying cronies are busily reproducing it.

Jane, Iraq is starting to look just about like a
Vietnamese Duck. It sure has been walkin'n'talkin' like one. Maybe it isn't a question of growing up. More like smelling the coffee.

By-the-by: Downplaying the importance of Vietnam right now doesn't make you look very smart. Remember how it ended? Not to mention that horrible middle part. But that was almost 35 years ago -- soon the mothers of all those guys who died in that war will all be dead. So what's the big deal?

(shudder)

*The link is for Horsey's 11/06 cartoon if you happen to be reading this after that date.

Guys, this looks nothing like an undeclared proxy war fought to prop up a corrupt post-colonialist state in order to prevent imperialist expansion by a nuclear-armed neighbor. Reasoning by analogy is suspect, but never more so than when people insist on fighting the last war. Maybe we should pull back into the cities and build forts to keep the Indians out, hmmm?

Orbitron, your other comments are ridiculous. Bush is not my pal, I didn't vote for him, and the idea that I'm trying to downplay an unsubstantiated 35-year old crime in order to somehow cover up for his administration goes to show just how emotionally incapable many liberals have become of dealing with the here and now instead of trying to relive their past victories.

As for you, O'McSomething, if the crime indeed happened, the mothers are dead, since they were killed in the village. I've said repeatedly that I think it's awful and should be investigated. But front page news? Wildly irrelevent invective with a high negative indice may make you feel better, but adds nothing to the discussion.

Jane -- I was talking about the mothers of the US Soldiers who died in Iraq, re this part of your post:

Why can't they move on? For most of the population now, [aside: so anyone your age or younger are most of the population? ok.] Viet Nam is not the defining event of their lives; the war was over by the time I was born, and I'm no spring chicken. Clinging ferociously to the golden days of your youth only illuminates you jowls and sags more brightly, my friend. Time to move on.

Here's that jowly, saggy, eternal spring chicken, John McCain, clinging ferociously to the golden days of [his] youth before the Conference on Foreign Relations:

Iraq is not Vietnam. But if we are to avoid a debate over who "lost" Iraq, as we debated who lost Vietnam a generation ago, we must act urgently to transform our early military success into a lasting political victory.

Go 'head. Read the whole thing.

Opps! Correction:

I was taking about the mothers of the US Soldiers who died in Vietnam,.....

Give us boomers a break Megan. Don't forget what we had to go through--the age of Disco. It left scars on a lot of us. I'm one of the lucky ones. I just tend to drink a lot of beer and stare at the wall for extended periods of time. Others aren't so lucky--they are in a state of perpetual flashbacks to the late 1960's and early 70's. You don't know what its like. You think you might finally be getting over it when another one of those awful nightmares happens where the music of the Bee Gees is constantly playing in the background and YOU CAN'T TURN IT OFF--and then you wake up screaming.

Have you no pity in your soul?

We're still losing soldiers in Bosnia, too or have we all forgotten? Why isn't that referred to as "another Vietnam"?

I suspect because it has to do with the political party of the President who initiated the military action.

On a less serious note, Ratbane, what's wrong with disco? It lives on in our souls, man.

Jane, you supported Bush to the hilt in the run-up to a war that may well turn out to be the biggest disaster in American history, and up 'til now I haven't seen any sign that your support has wavered. That makes you and him pals in my book.

"Jane, you supported Bush to the hilt in the run-up to a war that may well turn out to be the biggest disaster in American history..."

Orbitron,

Do you seriously believe that the second Gulf War is likely to turn out to be the biggest disaster in American History? If so, what are your reasons for thinking this?

I'd conceed that it's possible the second Gulf War might turn out to be the biggest disaster in American history, but there's a yawning chasm between things that are possible and those things actually occuring. It may well turn out to be that aliens destroy the Earth tomorrow, but I don't think that's very likely. Wouldn't the "biggest disaster in American history" be the destruction of America itself? Or at the very least some event that leads to the END of American history? Just wondering.

Orbitron, if you think Iraq is anything like Vietnam you've got a wretched knowledge of the history. There were mere WEEKS in Vietnam that were more costly in lives and equipment than the entirety of the actions in Afghanistan and Iraq have been to date.

The circumstances are hugely different. There is no Soviet Union bristling with nukes propping up our enemies. While some of the supporters of our enemies remain unconfronted it is a matter of our convenience and economic stability rather than a fear of lighting off World War III as a massive nuclear exchange. Our great handicap this time is our reluctance to engage in mass slaughter as against those who find the idea quite palatable. It is a dire constraint but it also defines who we are as a modern civilization. It could still come to that if our very survival came to be at stake but we would certainly lose something in the process. But then the advantage of surviving is the chance to heal the mental scars acquired along the way. The non-survivors have no such solace.

hhmm.. let's see .. 200-odd dead American soldiers might equal 'the worst disaster in Amercian history'

shhhh... don't tell Orbitron about the Civil War!

(he's funnier this way)

I take issue with the bit about the US commanders all being dead or retired. After all, the guy who whitewashed the My Lai investigation is now the Secretary of State.

And, do we even have to bring up Kissinger?

Robert Schwartz said:
"Now I am a boomer, born in late 1947, but I have long been disgusted by the bizare combination of self-righteousness and narcissim of my cohorts."

I'm the same age and remember being vaguely disgusted about this when reading Tom Wolfe's _The Me Generation_ back in the '70s in LA. EST, Scientology and all that. Me Me MEEEE.

The Civil War was not a disaster, in the sense of a plan gone awry. It was a tragedy.

It's entirely possible that Bush and the PNAC crowd will leave the US isolated internationally; militarily overextended and vulnerable to real threats; and with reduced access to petroleum due to the hostility toward the US our imperial power grab has engendered in oil-producing nations.

Orbitron, you are very funny.
Let's take your points one at a time.

1) will leave the US isolated internationally
But... the US has only 3% of the world population yet consumes 30% (or whatever) of the resources. And, incidently, produces 40% of the world income.
If an impassible wall appeared at the US borders, we'd barely notice---but the rest of the world would certainly be majorly affected.

2) militarily overextended
The US military is larger than than of the next 10 countries. And number 11 is probably the size of the Podunk volunteer fire department.

3) and vulnerable to real threats;
See the upcoming CBS special: "Iraq, how the fiercest Army in the world stopped the US Amry cold." Oh, wait, that didn't happen. I've got news for you, Sunshine. If the US ever decides that there is a major threat against it, we'll root it out with the hoof-and-mouth techique. See http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2001/03/27032001110744.asp 5th paragraph: "To root out the disease, EU has chosen the strategy of mass extermination of all animals affected by hoof and mouth or considered likely to have come into contact with it."

4) and with reduced access to petroleum
Yeah, right. As if we don't have plenty of our own to drill if we felt like it. Google for ANWR and off-shore fields.

Not to mention that if the US decided to claim the oilfields of the ME as ours, there's nobody and no thing in the world who could stop us.

5) due to the hostility toward the US our imperial power grab has engendered in oil-producing nations.

Yeah, and the Chinese were hostile toward Japan in the early 1930's. Google "Nanking" and see how that worked out.

Um, BTW, these are not "oil-producing nations". Oil is not produced. Oil is drilled and pumped.

ray, glad you're having fun.

1) If an impassable wall appeared at the US borders, how would we get that 30% of the world's resources we need to keep out economy going?

2) What do you think would happen if North Korea decided to invade South Korea while we are busy -- doing what, exactly -- in Iraq?

3) The point is that Iraq was not a real threat, but we are wasting lives and resources there and ignoring real threats. Glad to hear you're happy we could kill everybody in the world if we wanted to. Kind of sounds like you want to, even.

4) You're just repeating Bush lies. We have very little oil of our own anymore. Glad to hear you're OK with stealing other people's.

5) You want the US to behave like Imperial Japan did towards China. Rock on.

Um, here's a direct quote (emphasis mine) from a headline from a US DOE website:

"Reserve to Production Ratios for Top Ten Oil Producing Nations"

http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw125.shtml

I must say, you people do an excellent job of changing the subject.

The fact remains that Jane supported Bush unwaveringly in his campaign to invade Iraq for no good reason, and to date she has not chosen to address the consequences of her support. This despite having stated that should it turn out Bush was lying about his reasons for wanting to invade, there should be "hell to pay". Good job holding Bush's feet to the fire, Jane!

Altho I was born in 1950, I never in my life boomed a baby. I will acknowledge that I spent a lot of my youth in the condition we referred to as "wasted".

As to Iraq being another Viet Nam, this time we are not bailing France out of a screwup in one of their colonies.

As an early '47 Boomer, I don't which is funnier: that my fellow Boomers can't let go of Vietnam (especially those who weren't in the service) or that non-Boomers think they understand anything at all about Vietnam. Both see through their own lens. Hey. It was a war. Lotsa them in history. Lotsa people got killed (I wasn't one of them). Happens a lot in history. People didn't like it. (First thing any self-aware teenager learns is "LOVE IS GOOD"; second thing is "WAR IS BAD".)

So far, Iraq is nothing like Vietnam at any stage. However, as Yogi says about predicting, who knows how bad it will get? On the other hand, is it worth it? In my opinion, IF the Iraqis come out of this without Saddam/baathists and with a reasonably democratic govt of their own choosing, yes. Deaths and all. I don't currently have any loved ones in danger -- gap in the generations, but I'd still think that. Hell, teenagers and 20-year-olds die every weekend in idiot drinking related ways for no good return at all.

And, Orbitron, if you want to see bad, see Iwo Jima (my dad was among the first to hit the beach) or D-Day in Normandy. Guess we should have bugged out when the bugging was good, huh?

As an early '47 Boomer, I don't which is funnier: that my fellow Boomers can't let go of Vietnam (especially those who weren't in the service) or that non-Boomers think they understand anything at all about Vietnam. Both see through their own lens. Hey. It was a war. Lotsa them in history. Lotsa people got killed (I wasn't one of them). Happens a lot in history. People didn't like it. (First thing any self-aware teenager learns is "LOVE IS GOOD"; second thing is "WAR IS BAD".)

So far, Iraq is nothing like Vietnam at any stage. However, as Yogi says about predicting, who knows how bad it will get? On the other hand, is it worth it? In my opinion, IF the Iraqis come out of this without Saddam/baathists and with a reasonably democratic govt of their own choosing, yes. Deaths and all. I don't currently have any loved ones in danger -- gap in the generations, but I'd still think that. Hell, teenagers and 20-year-olds die every weekend in idiot drinking related ways for no good return at all.

And, Orbitron, if you want to see bad, see Iwo Jima (my dad was among the first to hit the beach) or D-Day in Normandy. Guess we should have bugged out when the bugging was good, huh?

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