Asymmetrical Information

This is particularly rich from Josh Marshall, who surely knows that almost any really juicy piece of political news was obtained illegally . . . by staffers violating confidentiality agreements, illegally releasing documents they have access to, and so on.

Good point, does this mean we will see a similar level of outrage over an equally illegal disclosure when JMM gleefully puts out the latest supposed “leak” about the Bush administration?

Look - Nixon!

"The fact that the memos were stolen isn't going to make them any less embarassing Several liberal bloggers seem to have confused the Court of Public Opinion with an actual court."

I seem to recall an incident a few years ago where some embarassing cell phone conversations were recorded and released to the public. I don't recall the right wing taking the position that 'the source of the disclosure doesn't matter'.

I don't recall "the right wing" in America having any position whatsoever on Prince Charles and Camilla. I certainly didn't. Or is there another release that I'm forgetting?

But anyway, I'd say the same thing -- just because they shouldn't have tapped your phones, doesn't mean you can pretend no one heard you.

Jane, there was a cell phone conversation in Florida between Gingrich and some other GOPpers, which was related to his ethics case.

Actually, the 'court of public opinion' may in fact fault the Republicans more for stealing confidential information than the Democrats for strategizing in print.

Or, more likely: right wingers like you will downplay this theft and continue to make something out of nothing on the "embarrassing" Rockefeller memo, and left wingers like me will downplay the Rockefeller memo and try to make this theft seem like Watergate Part Deux. Those between us probably won't care about either.

Ah. I remember absolutely nothing about that particular imbroglio, but I doubt I'd have any sympathy for Newt -- though I might be persuaded to argue that if it wasn't admissible in a criminal trial, it shouldn't be in a congressional proceeding either. But since I don't have much patience with the exclusionary rule, I doubt it.

“But I have a hunch that the Democrats may decline to pursue this, politically, since doing so will only call attention to the stuff they didn't want people to read in the first place.”

This story is going nowhere. Heck, it is essentially the first time I’ve heard of it---and I’m a political junkie! Our host is right to say that it will only entertain the folks residing within the beltway. The rest of the country has better things to worry about. Were any specifically worded laws broken? If not, the alleged perpetrators should be slapped on the wrist and told not to do it again.

The government employee who discovered these memos is a whistle blower and therefore cannot be fired. He should be treated as a hero.

In his role of as a government employee he discovered that other employees were colluding to discriminate against a person because of his race. Maybe his methods were not commendable but racial discrimination should be stamped out no matter how it is discovered.

Jane, I don't see the need for raising all the issues you, or those you are responding to, raise. This story is just a possible crime perpetrated by persons in a senator's office. One or more of Senator Hatch's staff might have committed a kind of prosecutable crime (breaking into several persons' computers and stealing information that wasn't theirs). If the evidence were sound, and if those wronged want to prosecute, then a little jail time is perhaps in order, or some kind of plea bargain to get to accomplices. The only ancillary issue is whether or not Senator Hatch is an accessory to the alleged crime. If the evidence suggests that he is, then he too would be brought to justice. I'm a liberal who agrees with you that the only thing this has in common with Watergate is that it may be a felony crime of stealing political information. A pretty big deal to those facing possible prosecution and imprisonment, including Senator Hatch, but not a Watergate-sized scandal.

The government employee who discovered these memos is a whistle blower and therefore cannot be fired. He should be treated as a hero.

In his role of as a government employee he discovered that other employees were colluding to discriminate against a person because of his race. Maybe his methods were not commendable but racial discrimination should be stamped out no matter how it is discovered.

I seem to recall an incident a few years ago where some embarassing cell phone conversations were recorded and released to the public.

I seem to recall that last time someone "improperly accessed" a confidential memo from a Democratic staffer, it was because they left it behind in a liquor store.

Presumably these are not the same Hatch staffers that put a link to a p0rn site on his website. I wonder if they will all have their computers replaced with typewriters now?

Democrats consipire to break the law by leaking intelligence information. The leaked information could very well result in the deaths of American soldiers. The tradeoff of political gain at the expense of American lives is considered well worthwhile.

Republican staffers obtain evidence of the illegal conspiracy by illegal means. As a result, Democrats may be embarrassed.

Liberals naturally are far more concerned about protesting the embarassment than protesting the criminal undermining of national security and the risk to American lives.

Wrong interpretation. Orrin's staffers were working on behalf of the RIAA to ensure that Jay Rockefeller and other Democratic Senators were not sharing Orrin's hits on their file sharing network.

http://www.hatchmusic.com/

Apparently, the Dems have been ripping and burning Orrin's 2 hit singles: "One Gentle Lamb" and "How His Glory Shines".

Shame on them.

-Brad

he hails from a state that wouldn't elect a Democrat if Jesus Christ himself walked across the Great Salt Lake and endorsed him.

Actually, that just might work. I believe you've hit on a new campaign strategy for the Utah Democratic Party!

What's going on with this Democrats-running-Christ motif? Scott at AMCGLTD.COM used the same figure of speech just last night.

Take it from your humble Curmudgeon, it ain't gonna happen. Christ is pro-life. The Democrats wouldn't even let Him speak at one of their conventions!

Wasn't there some fracas here a month ago about the possibility that the Dems were opposing Estrada as a race issue? Wasn't there also a long queue of visitors popping up to explain how Jane was utterly full of compost on the matter?

"And unfortunately for Dems, he hails from a state that wouldn't elect a Democrat if Jesus Christ himself walked across the Great Salt Lake and endorsed him."

i think the dems would be looking for an endorsement from joseph smith, actually...

"Corporations and Wall Street have learned their lesson"

That's truly hilarious and naive as all get out. I hope you have a steady job writing for Leno.

Filchyboy, I suspect the lesson Jane's talking about is "Don't put it in writing if it could be used against you."

Words to live by, by the way.

Filchyboy, I suspect the lesson Jane's talking about is "Don't put it in writing if it could be used against you."

Words to live by, by the way.

Didn't anyone learn anything from the Microsoft trial. How many horrible emails did they have to explain in court. The footage of Bill Gates asking the prosecution to explain the meaning of "this" still cracks me up.

And while this is going to be the talk of the journalistic town for some time, I doubt it goes far in the hinterlans.

Yeah, those hicks are so dumb.

Bill and co didn't learn that lesson. Instead they tried to solve it technically, which is where Palladium, NGSCB and the est fo the stupid ideas involving trusting machines more than people come from.

Bill and co didn't learn that lesson. Instead they tried to solve it technically, which is where Palladium, NGSCB and the rest of the stupid ideas involving trusting machines more than people come from.

This sentence left me a bit confused:

"The media will describe this as hacking, but it's probably something much more prosaic . . . like Dick Durbin having his dog's name as his password."

Umm, even if they guessed his password because he was dumb, it's still hacking to break into someone else's computer and take confidential information from it. Just as it's theft to steal your neighbor's TV, even if they leave their spare key in an obvious place like under the doormat.

I don't know how big of a deal this is; it really depends what they were doing, how often they were doing it, and whether it was on their own or with the knowledge and support of higher-ups. Assuming it was a low-level, one time thing, I'd say the staffers in question should be fired, and Seantors should start paying a little more attention to network security. If it was an ongoing problem, then maybe something more would be warranted.

And I agree that what was said, once it's out, is fair game, regardless of how it was obtained. Just as the President's pre-war (mis?)use of intelligence is fair game in the upcoming election, regardless of whether Democrats on the intelligence committee write mean and machiavellian memos about making it an issue in the election.

What Doug Turnbull said.

Guessing passwords to gain unauthorized access to files is a felony.

So it happened to the other guys and probably won't be punished, much less have any political consequences.

It's still a felony.

Democrats consipire to break the law by leaking intelligence information. The leaked information could very well result in the deaths of American soldiers. The tradeoff of political gain at the expense of American lives is considered well worthwhile.

I dare you to repeat that to Joe Wilson's face.

"The media will describe this as hacking, but it's probably something much more prosaic . . . like Dick Durbin having his dog's name as his password".

The method used to get 'in' a protected system in no way diminishes the seriousness of the breach, no matter how prosaic it seems. Does it matter if the bank robber obtains the 'combination' (seems quaint, doesn't it?) from a post-it note or by some fancy online hack? Not really.

An astonishing percentage (_way_ over half) of security breaches are low tech, social engineering ('hey, this is Joe from accounting, I lost the little sticker I had my password on, can you ...'). This bears no relation to the magnitude of the breach.

As a prediction, I strongly suspect Jane is right. Does she also think this is a good thing?

I don't think we yet know what happened. At a minimum, however, as others have said, it appears there has been a felony. The proper response is prosecution.

It does not do at all to say, as some have suggested, that all's fair - Democrats should have known that someone would guess their password (!) and read emails or files clearly intended to be confidential. You try to find an inventive or hard-to-break password to protect yourself from outlaws and thieves. Not people who think of themselves as honorable or moral. I rather doubt that Jane or others who post to this list would break into a co-worker's email account (let alone a competitor's) laughing all the time because he was "stupid" enough to choose his birthdate or dog's name as a password.

It is also worth noting that if these staffers were minimally aware, and if the institutional culture is healthy where they work, these staffers would know that what they were doing was illegal. What excuse there? That these poor disfranchised folk had had no hand in making the law? That it was unjust and made it impossible for them to prosper? No. They were angry and petulant and broke the law to advance their political ends.

And we do not yet know the extent of their crimes. It is possible - though we do NOT yet know -that there were many prior break-ins. It scarcely requires a wild or conspiratorial demeanor to believe that a staffer or staffers have been hacking into others' computer files for some time. Until we do know, judgment should be reserved. I certainly agree that we do not presently evidence tying Hatch or any other elected official to the break-ins, and frankly, I am disinclined to believe he would do something so foolish. However, until we know, judgment should be reserved.

My password is "jane.galt.has.dubious.morals"

"Actually, the 'court of public opinion' may in fact fault the Republicans more for stealing confidential information than the Democrats for strategizing in print."

That might be true if the stragetizing in question wasn't about how to to abuse access to secret information for political gain. Reporters didn't gain access to the Pentagon Papers legally. So long as the information obtained is important, and doesn't put the lives of our servicemen in danger, I suspect the American public won't care.

It's interesting to note that many of those condemning the publication of these memos, were more than happy to endorse the publication of the Diebold memos, under very similar circumstances.

"The fact that the memos were stolen isn't going to make them any less embarassing Several liberal bloggers seem to have confused the Court of Public Opinion with an actual court. Despite the name, it doesn't actually operate by the same rules, and the judges aren't going to exclude evidence just because it was improperly obtained. It was a bad call for the Democrats to put it down in black and white that they need to oppose Estrada's nomination "

This is a sword that cuts both ways. We can guess that there very well may exist memos on the Republican side stating that Estrada is a good nominee because he is hispanic (no doubt written by the same people who are on record opposing affirmative action). Of course this guess wouldn't be admissable in a court of law but it is in this fabled 'court of public opinion'.

"The media will describe this as hacking, but it's probably something much more prosaic . . . like Dick Durbin having his dog's name as his password."

Hmmmm, here's the definition of prosaic:

1a. Consisting or characteristic of prose. b. Matter-of-fact; straightforward.
2. Lacking in imagination and spirit; dull.

A lot of hacking would fit this definition, so would a lot of computer crime. The media would be 100% accurate, though, in describing the incident as both. Right wing ethics are always amusing to observe. Basically Jane's position seems to be if it is easy to steal then it is morally ok.

Tempest. Teapot. Just like the Nigerian Uranium silliness. Makes the mad-dog partisans go ape, and no one else gives a damn. It's the sort of thing that even if a DA got ahold of it, he'd plea-bargain it down to a slap on the wrist just to get on to more serious business.

Why, Skinny, does Joe Wilson have a CIA girlfriend he wants to out just like he did his wife?

sure.. i'll tell anything to joe wilson.. how about that he's a partisan hack who doesn't care about us security, his wife's safety, or anything except his own fabulousness and fame??

and that he's whoring himself out for money to the saudis, one of our two largest enemies (besides france)???

i'll eve let him take two swings before i drop him

Rummy's been schooling Ari.

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