Asymmetrical Information

Where is the connection to Ashcroft?
Do you think that Europe cannot make its own law? That it might not be similar under similar conditions?

I'm skeptical of the Ashcroft influence as well. These reports seem to me to substantiate the facts that "old Europe" is indeed serious about its anti-terror measures - and has been for some time. At the very least, a lot more serious than the Euro-bashers would have us believe.

One note to the reader's comment on the 'long indeed' link: Germany has debated whether Islamic instruction to Islamic students must be in German rather than in Arabic, and a proposal was floated to make the same requirement for Islamic clergy and their preaching. That's a vastly different context than alluded to by the commentor.

The entire issue of Islamic integration into German society dominated German media (print, television, and radio) in the aftermath of van Gogh's murder. Perhaps German efforts don't live up to the levels our Ashcroft lovers would prefer, but ignore as completely uninformed any commentors who blather on about Europeans not caring - or even supporting the terrorists.

Cheers,

Uh, people, the connection to Ashcroft is a *joke*. The point is that European government routinely infringe on civil liberties in ways that go FAR beyond anything Ashcroft ever considered and yet there is no outcry from the European (or American) left who seemed to think that Ashcroft was turning the U.S. into a quasi-totalitarian state.

Perhaps Jane forgot the (sarcasm)tags. In some ways, the British, French, and German antiterrorism laws exceed anything Ashcroft asked for. (Remember, the "enemy combatant" detentions are by the Department of Defense, not Justice, and I've heard that Ashcroft argued against them inside the administration.)

Of course, in other ways they seem ridiculous. Apparently the Brits are considering obtaining their equivalent of restraining orders against terrorist suspects, I guess to tell them not to kill people or blow up things.

As for Germany and "Islamic Integration", I was under the impression that the Germans simply don't want the Islamics making plans to stay. They want them to do the dirty jobs, collect their lower-than-German-welfare paychecks, then go home. And given that, teaching their kids Islam makes sense.

Whoops. Never considered myself to be humour impaired, so I have to apologise for missing any intended sarcasm.

But, really, what's a lefty to do ? Reviled for falling into line behind the wine-sipping appeasers of Old Europe then, rebuked now for failing to protest when it turns out that those same cheese-eating surrender monkeys (to coin a phrase) have some Draconian measures of their own in place.

Maybe we lefties should take a page from our principled brethren on the right. I remember so well the praise coming from around their dewy and damp campfires in support of European anti-terror activity. Saw right through the veneer of anti-war sentiment and knew that Europe wasn't soft on terrorism.

Or, maybe, the real world doesn't neatly reduce into the infantile charicatures trotted out by, say, political campaigns. Luckily no one here would be guilty of such a thing.

But to those few who would, time to wake up and smell the pumpkin pie ! Happy Thanksgiving.

Cheers,

markm,

Your impression of Islamic integration in Germany may need an update. The vast majority of Muslims in Germany trace their roots to Turkey, but plenty are second- and even third-generation born in Germany. Regardless of how Germans feel about this Islamic presence (and its character is quite different than the presence in France or Holland), few Germans could argue that it's not here to stay - and has been for a while.

And to straighten out one thing - I don't see how the folks doing the dirty jobs are on welfare.

Cheers,

Rofe: I didn't say the "Turks" in Germany collect welfare. I said that they will work jobs Germans won't - because the Germans can get more from welfare...

Aha. Upon further review, I understand now how that reads.

The 'then go home' concept seems to be a non-issue, however. Home is largely Germany.

Rofe: Then how accepting are the Germans of these 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants?

Are we suppose to be surprised that much of Europes right wing seek to expand police authority, using terrorism as an excuse? I mean, the Germans historically have the most right wing tendencies of any country, so that the German right would use terror as an excuse to bring back goose stepping and some of the old "Sieg Heil, Babe(sp)" is not at all surprising. In any case, the article said very little specific to the laws the Eurorighties seek to pass, but those described are no more invasive then the Patriot Act.

The funny thing about the Patriot Act is that if it existed prior to 911 it wouldnt have changed a thing. The civil liberties that are destroyed by the Patriot Act, primarily privacy and search and seizure rights, would have not resulted in stopping 911, Okie City, etc. And the ridiculous "Wall" Ashcroft made up, has never existed. Its kinda funny that the "wall" was the primary excuse for the administrations failure on 911, yet next to nothing has been done to coordinate and consolidate intell three years later, and the administration is resisting changeing anything.

But, really, what's a lefty to do ?

Ummm...maybe reject a bankrupt ideology that is doomed to lose election in perpetuity?

Just a thought...

RMC you reps should be careful with the word "bankrupt". Considering jrs private sector history of near across the board bankruptcies, and the huge defecits his joke of a first term produced, "bankrupt" is the recurring theme of this administration.

Remember, you righties won by a 120,000 votes in Ohio, otherwise jr would have been the first war time president to lose a US election. You reps won because of fear, and because millions of poor, stupid, white trash voted their cultural identity rather then their realistic economic expectations. SS privatization will go no where. Tax reform will go no where. The only "mandate" jr has is to clean up his mess in Iraq, ALL the polling data showed the people trust the dems more with the economy.

Maybe Ashcroft could learn from his European counterparts how to get anti-terrorism convictions......

You reps won because of fear, and because millions of poor, stupid, white trash voted their cultural identity rather then their realistic economic expectations.

Mrs Begbee, would you please come and pick up your little boy? He's running around biting people again. Thank you.

I for one don't trust the Democrats with the economy. They were the ones that allowed a investment bubble and dollar bubble build up to occur that has probably destroyed the competitiveness of many American industries on a long term basis by allowing foreign competition to get established while creating a large number of companies with unviable business plans that spent the retirement savings of a large number of Americans. All that money probably ended up in California and New York real estate.

Wow, back to address markm's question to me, but I see that in the meantime there's some more ground to cover.

markm,

Your question about how accepting are the Germans hit several nails on the head. In fact, one of the leading German newsweeklies (Stern) has a survey in the most recent issue on just this question. In short, a substantial portion of poll respondents (>30%) said that Islamic integration has already gone far enough. Other questions addressed dangers posed, etc. I can't vouch for the poll's robustness (Stern in terms of content and analysis falls between Time and People), but it shows a German society that has wide splits in its views of the integration issue.

Begbee,

With all due restraint, I have to say that comments like yours ("goosesteppers") give free rein to gratutious slaps from folks like RMc. The mainstream German 'right' is in many respects further left than US Democrats, and the true right-wing groups that play on the goosestepping ideology are marginalized, quite literally fighting against a Supreme Court ban on their existence. If you're seriously conflating these two political movements into 'the right', you may want to re-think your approach.

RMc,

I have to admit that your comment hits one of my hot buttons. Your "bankrupt ideology" is largely a political creation of the American right that's hugely effective in winning elections but distressingly dishonest. Among my lefty friends and relatives, I can count no elites, no limousines and no anti-Americans - just regular folks who work, support their families, go to church and have different opinions than you do about the environment, education and taxes. Nothing radical, in fact a lot of common ground with the 'righties' who are their neighbors. Maudlin, but true. Unfortunately, poor fodder for political campaigns - and ideologues.

Cheers,

Among my lefty friends and relatives, I can count no elites, no limousines and no anti-Americans - just regular folks who work, support their families, go to church and have different opinions than you do about the environment, education and taxes.

When I talk of bankruptcy, I don't mean the rank-and-file Democrats, but rather the loony left, the Michael Moore/Ted Rall/Maureen Dowd wing of the party that the "mainstream" DNC just can't seem to stay away from. Sober, decent Democrats will continue to lose elections -- geez, as much as I like him, GWB was the most beatable incumbent president since Jimmy Carter -- until they regain their senses and tell the moonbats to butt out.

The GOP is far from perfect, but at least they know enough not to encourage the real nutballs on their extreme fringe -- people who genuinely hate this country and want to see America fail. Meanwhile, their opposite numbers on the Left get front-row seats at the Dem convention. Voters aren't stupid...they notice things like that.

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