Asymmetrical Information

I feel sorry for those good people who were not able to leave because of (name the reasons). Now let's read between the lines:

"But I don't recall any reporter exploring the class issue directly by getting a paycheck-to-paycheck victim to explain that he couldn't risk leaving because if he lost his furniture and appliances, his pots and pans, his bedding and clothes, to Katrina or looters, he'd have no way to replace them."

In other words, a lot of the ones who would not leave, knew what would happen to their belongings. They knew full well their neighbors lack of morals. How tragic and unfortunate. Their race is unimportant.

As Clayton Cramer points out: the average poor American owns a car.

Poverty likely prevented some people in New Orleans from evacuating, but the majority of people still there CHOSE to be there.

Additionally, none of the anti-looting bloggers I've seen have been arguing that food should not be taken when needed - we've all been critical of the individuals, gangs, police officers, and fire fighters who are stealing computers, TVs, jewelry, and DVDs.

You are entirely right that race is unimportant - anyone who argues that people are looting because they are black is a nasty racist.

However, culture IS important, and it is entirely fair game to argue that significant parts of the American population have a culture that does not respect the rule of law, property rights, or individual rights, and will do exactly as much as they can get away with.

Further, I assert that it's even fair to say that the correlation between groups with this meme, and groups that are in poverty is a causal one (in both directions).

In the US, the vast majority of people who are poor are poor because they CHOOSE to be poor. I recall a Cato or Heritage paper showing that something like 75% of all people living below the poverty line would be lifted above it if they just worked 40 hours a week on average.

This is one of several painful underlying issues this catastrophe will compel us to confront. As a basic premise,and as a consequence of fiscal and physical frailty, there are few, maybe no, circumstances that don't impact disproportionately on the poor and the aged.

On the very discrete question of whether, by preplanning and practice drilling, NO's mass transit system (assuming one exists) and school bus system should have been marshalled to get people out of the city, there remains the question of how exactly do you force people to leave? What if they won't come outside? How many people can authorities round up at gun point in a 2-3 day period? How many of those who didn't leave simply didn't comprehend or believe the warnings, for whatever reason?

The second discrete inquiry is the failure to stockpile. As simple as this sounds, I am not sure it is possible to tell in advance what locations will be accessible during and after the flooding and, even if that trick could be pulled off, what distribution system exists to mover supplies from Point A to Points B-Z.

It seems unlikely that NO's poor were demanding better flood control and more sophisticated emergency response planning as a part of the local agenda. Even granting that the poor remained behind to protect their limited holdings, personal stockpiling does not seem to have been a widespread practice. So far, there is little evidence of any meaningful foresight being employed by those hardest hit.

I also grant that, regardless of anything else, there is a compelling moral argument for helping privately and at every governmental level. That being said, I am at a loss to understand what government or those of more means could have or should have done that would have materially changed the fate of those who did not leave, other than building a disaster proof coastal city that sits 20 feet below sea level.

Finally, there are hundreds of thousand of people who did what they could. They have lost everything--their homes, jobs, schools, businesses, their lifetime's work. The scale of human tragedy here is beyond comprehension and is by no means limited only to the poor.

Just a note: Ford routinely defers payments during disasters. They did when Andrew came thru, and when the ice storm hit, up here in Canada. lots of big bills will do that. and when compared to the hundred dead, ruined credit is pretty minor :)

cheers
Rick

Chuck Simmins is keeping track of corporate response to the disaster and, as Rick above notes, Ford among others is allowing deferred payments.

I suspect that credit problem will be a serious one and not just for the poor, elderly, and sick. There are tens or hundreds of thousands of lawyers, doctors, dentists, CPA's, architects, and other professionals who've lost their offices, computers, equipment, records, practices, and clients or patients. If they fled the hurricane, they're living off credit cards or ATM cards now. What happens when the credit cards and ATM cards stop working?

I haven't heard much mention of it so far but we're about to learn how good the disaster recovery/business continuity plans of professionals are. I suspect not too good.

Not to mention banks.

I'm not sure Cramer's "average poor person" stats would be the same for "average poor person who lives in a large city."

There have actually been a number of media reports focusing on the class angle.

I can understand that a lot of the poor folks in New Orleans had no easy way to leave town, particularly for an extended stay. I don't know what the government of the city could have done about that (organize a huge bus caravan to some non-existent shelter in 48 hours? not likely), but we should certainly be developing a plan for the future.

What I can't understand is why they couldn't be bothered to take the bus or just walk over to the Superdome, where there was an organized attempt to help them out. They had 48 hours to gather up what they could carry and move to a shelter.

And how could anyone in New Orleans fail to grasp the problem so completely that they didn't even bother to stockpile a couple day's worth of drinking water? I couldn't believe it when I saw victim after victim going by on TV saying, "we haven't had anything to drink since the storm hit".

In the past, residents of Florida have been complacent about evacuating. After being pounded enough times, they've learned their lesson and evacuations go pretty well now. It's too bad that the lesson didn't extend as for as Louisiana.

I guess it's true that people never learn from other people's mistakes, only their own.

As Dave Scheuler points out, there are some pretty big problems with the banks.

Nobody down there is doing any business, I know Hibernia (just acquired by CapitalOne, IIRC) and a couple of the other big regional players are down. I think folks whose deposits are with major national banks (B of A, Wells, and the like) should be okay, but folks who have their personal accounts or business DDAs with smaller, local players are going to have some problems, I'd guess. Same goes for people using community credit unions and the like.

Keep in mind, though, that many poor don't have bank accounts. That'll cause a whole other host of issues, because any savings they had were likely in the form of cash.

TJIC writes:

>>>In the US, the vast majority of people who are poor are poor because they CHOOSE to be poor. I recall a Cato or Heritage paper showing that something like 75% of all people living below the poverty line would be lifted above it if they just worked 40 hours a week on average."

First, what's your definition of "poor", and second, and do you believe CHILDREN have a choice in what economic status they're born into.

Cato and Heritage are right winged think tanks with a revisionist agenda steeped in destroying most social programs created in the 20th Century. I have no doubt what they're motivations are.

What are yours?

--Cobra

I guess I'm one of those "closet racists" noticing that it seems to be almost exclusively black people who are doing the looting. I also noticed it during other previous disasters and riots - '92 Los Angeles, Hurricane Andrew, etc etc etc. I guess we're supposed to ignore the evidence of our eyes and continue repeating the mantra that race has nothing to do with behavior. But what if there really IS a correlation between race and a tendency to amoral, selfish, violent behavior? Wouldn't it be suicidal to ignore it just because it is unpleasant that life might actually be ordered that way?

I just feel sorry for any white people left in that city. I saw video of some white tourists walking aimlessly, dragging their suitcases behind them, looking for help. They said they hadn't seen any police. What a nightmare...white people abandoned in a lawless city full of black people with no police in sight, and no firearms to protect themselves. You can talk all you want about how awful it is to be a racist, but they are the ones who are finding out firsthand the brutal realities of race in this country.

I know folks at Cato and Heritage. They are on average just as compassionate as "Cobra" or any other American. They have no evil motives in
opposing (or destroying) the social programs of the 20th century. Instead, they believe such programs hurt the people they are intended to hurt. So debate whether they are right or wrong about that but, unless you have evidence, let's not imply nefarious motives to those with whom you disagree.

Reports here in Houston are that many refugees are unable to use ATM, debit or credit cards due to the bank backing the cards being offline.

Ech: that seems about right, I know some of our correspondents are down.

Actually, the first footage I saw of looting was of a white guy being handcuffed by cops.

I don't think anybody would object to somebody taking food. When survival is at stake, you do what you have to. Besides, assuming much left was edible, I doubt it would remain that way for long. Who else would eat it, the rats?

But the majority of the looting wasn't about survival, it was about opportunism. Walking out of The Gap with a 3-ft. stack of folded jeans in your arms doesn't have much to do with surviving a disaster. Not everyone with the opportunity to do so is engaging in such behaviour, and I don't think we should be apologists for those who are.

As far as being too poor to evacuate, maybe so, but I think it was pretty easy for anybody to get to the Superdome, which was designated as the refuge of last resort. I think the city is still taking care of thousands or even tens of thousands of people, currently moving them to better shelter in Houston. Choosing to stay and protect appliances and personal belongings from looters, as Shafer seems to suggest was the only option for some, seems misguided to say the least. Better to get out of a life-threatening situation, especially since an alternative was readily available, and since those appliances and most other belongings weren't likely to survive the storm and subsequent flooding in salvageable condition. Sure, it's tragic to have to start over with nothing, but it's more tragic to be killed by debris, drown, or contract a fatal disease in the toxic aftermath that the city is still struggling with.

In the US, the vast majority of people who are poor are poor because they CHOOSE to be poor. I recall a Cato or Heritage paper showing that something like 75% of all people living below the poverty line would be lifted above it if they just worked 40 hours a week on average.

MarkJ: You're confusing race with culture. Bad culture exists with white people, too. It just so happens that (for whatever myriad reasons) a significant portion of black culture is not the greatest.

Klug: I think race and culture are much more related than you think, but that's a whole huge discussion that isn't really germane to the topic of Jane's post.

Cato and Heritage are right winged think tanks with a revisionist agenda steeped in destroying most social programs created in the 20th Century. I have no doubt what they're motivations are.

What are yours? - Cobra

I for one wholeheartedly support most of the agenda of Cato and Heritage, if that agenda is to dismantle most social programs created in the 20th century. I can't speak for the motivations of members of those groups or the original poster, but my own main motivation for supporting this is that I support economic freedom and would like to see the elimination of compulsive charity. Everyone, no matter how succesful, should be free to live as charitably or as miserly as they choose.

A secondary motivations is the observation that most of these programs have been failures. Entitlements tend to discourage self-sufficiency and productivity, and the higher taxes necessary to fund them serve to some extent as an economic disincentive and a drain on the economy.

So those are my answers to your question, maybe you'll get some others, but this hardly seems like the thread to debate the matter.

I was under the impression that most poor people in the U.S.
are white, not black. The percentage of black people who are
poor is higher than among whites but in absolute numbers there
are more poor white people. Thus if the people in New Orleans
are a representative cross-section and if poverty is the true cause
of the looting we saw then we should expect to see a mix of blacks
and whites and whites should even predominate.

It's entirely possible though that the population of New Orleans is not a
representative cross section of the american population although
I'm certain that there are poor white poor white people living
in New Orleans. Also I doubt that poverty is the true cause of looting.
Demonstrating correlation does not demonstrate causation. I'm pretty sure
we can find historical populations of people that didn't loot in
similar circumstances and that were comparably poor. Just one such
instance is enough to prove that poverty isn't the true cause.

But what if there really IS a correlation between race and a tendency to amoral, selfish, violent behavior? Wouldn't it be suicidal to ignore it just because it is unpleasant that life might actually be ordered that way?

I just feel sorry for any white people left in that city. I saw video of some white tourists walking aimlessly, dragging their suitcases behind them, looking for help. They said they hadn't seen any police. What a nightmare...white people abandoned in a lawless city full of black people with no police in sight, and no firearms to protect themselves. You can talk all you want about how awful it is to be a racist, but they are the ones who are finding out firsthand the brutal realities of race in this country.

Jesus Christ, you're a disgusting sack of shit. While you clearly haven't the personal capacity for shame, anyone who knows you should be bitterly ashamed of you.

New Orlean--my favorite city--had always been equal parts charm and viciousness. My friends there would get out a gun just to go from their car to their middle-class house--standard practice pre-Katrina.

None of this makes me optimistic about Houston's short-term fate.

Also, I'm not sure why such a fuss is being made. NO has ALWAYS been very poor and two-thirds black. It should come as no surprise that the folks who are there now are very poor and mostly black.

Some disasters are on a scale that we simply can not cope with them gracefully. The N.O. flood may well be one.

It's a bit churlish to expect the poor to have the wherewithal to buy long distance bus tickets to unknown locations, fund extended hotel stays and eat at restaurants. If they could handle that, they wouldn't be poor.

N.O. is/was a perfectly delightful place for grownups interested in food, music, booze and sex -- the city simply breathed sensuality. The flip side of this coin is an attitude of welcome toward corruption that has been a way of life in that city since forever. Whose fault is it that the levies were too low and too weak? Who's responsibility was it to see that the pumping stations could operate in flood conditions (diesels rather than electric motors)? Probably not the scoundrels swiping TVs and computers as seen on TV.

Even a well-run city could face a mega-disaster, though, and evacuating a whole city is simply not something we've had to cope with very often. Just where, exactly, does one house half a million people on 24 hours notice? And how do you feed them? And water them? And provide toilets? And medical care? And help for the deranged, the elderly, the halt and the lame? If even the government -- with all its resrouces -- can't figure that one out, it seems a bit heartless to hold that for the poor, it's their own damn fault they're stuck.

Ever since the 9/11 attacks it has become clear we need much better disaster planning. Sure, you can people out of town in hurry sometimes, but then ther's a huge Then What?

I was under the impression that most poor people in the U.S.
are white, not black. The percentage of black people who are
poor is higher than among whites but in absolute numbers there
are more poor white people. Thus if the people in New Orleans
are a representative cross-section and if poverty is the true cause of the looting we saw then we should expect to see a mix of blacks and whites and whites should even predominate

The people of New Orleans are definitely not a representative cross-section of the country, demographically. On another note, I believe that black poverty is much more urban than white poverty is. Black, poor precincts in cities are among the most homogeneous places in the country--in St. Louis and Detroit they can be 97% black or more.

The 2000 Census found that New Orleans was 67% black, compared to 33% for the state of Louisiana, and 12% for the country as a whole. 28% of the city lived below the poverty line.

Assuming the wealthiest 75% of the city evacuated, I wouldn't expect the remnant to be representative of the city as a whole, much less of the United States.

N.O. is/was a perfectly delightful place for grownups interested in food, music, booze and sex -- the city simply breathed sensuality. The flip side of this coin is an attitude of welcome toward corruption that has been a way of life in that city since forever. Whose fault is it that the levies were too low and too weak? Who's responsibility was it to see that the pumping stations could operate in flood conditions (diesels rather than electric motors)? Probably not the scoundrels swiping TVs and computers as seen on TV.

Sounds like the "Ant and the Grasshopper" fable from Aesop. The Grasshopper played while the Ant worked and when disaster (winter) struck, the Grasshopper expected the Ant to pony up and carry him through.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against providing private funding (so long as it's not through Catholic Charities) to help out these folks but we have seen this problem before in my own native Minnesota where people lived in a flood plain, refused to purchase flood insurance (even when the rates were subsidized) and then when disaster struck expected others to bail them out.

Compassion for the victims of this disaster is all well and good but sooner or latter we are going to need to address the moral hazard we create by federalizing disaster relief.

"Cobra" asks:

Cato and Heritage are right winged think tanks with a revisionist agenda steeped in destroying most social programs created in the 20th Century. I have no doubt what they're motivations are.

What are yours?

Pretty much the same.

I see no moral, pragmatic, or constitutional argument to justify 99.9% of the social programs created in the 20th century, and I would repeal them with a snap of my fingers if I could.

Publius says:

"It's a bit churlish to expect the poor to have the wherewithal to buy long distance bus tickets to unknown locations, fund extended hotel stays and eat at restaurants. If they could handle that, they wouldn't be poor."

It seems to me that the poor should have had the EASIEST time leaving. They don't need to pay for an extended leave from their home, they could have just packed a few belongings and walked away to start over somewhere else. What did they have to lose?

When the wealthy evacuate, they leave behind nice houses, expensive cars, possibly pets that they treat as members of the family, valuable jewelry, family heirlooms, etc. This makes it emotionally difficult for wealthy people to leave. But by definition, the poor do not have this burden: they either rent their homes, or they are in public housing; their cars are practically junk anyway; and they don't have any valuable possessions. This is what it means to be poor. These people could just pick up their few belongings, buy a one-way bus ticket to any city and be poor there. Supposing they even had jobs in NO, it's not like minimum wage jobs are hard to come by.

As Janis Joplin sang, "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." The poor are the most free in situations like this; they don't need to worry about coming back and rebuilding. They can just start over from scratch and still be in the same shape they were in before the disaster.

"be poor there"? Good Christ! The difference between $15,000 a year in New Orleans, with no savings, investments, or insurance and ZERO dollars as a refugee in some town is a hell of a lot bigger than the difference between $70,000 a year in Metairie with investments, flood insurance, and connections and living on credit cards in a hotel somewhere else.

Be poor somewhere else. Yeah, isn't that what the refugees at the Convention Center are doing? Waiting out the flood somewhere else?

Nobody here has any idea of how many refugees now in New Orleans had the ability to leave, but decided not to, or wished to leave, but did not have the means. Undoubtedly there were sizable numbers in both groups. As far as I know however, there was no plan to make transportation available to those without the means, which is a failure of government. As to those who had the means, but didn't (and having evacuated from looming hurricanes four times, I know it is a sizable number; I was often mocked by those who chose to ride it out), well, you can't really help people who are so cavalier about their own well-being. Forcibly removing people while a hurrican bears down just isn't viable. This doesn't mean that they don't deserve our full measure of compassion, but the reality is that the death toll was largely unavoidable when so many, for whatever reason, did not leave.

difference between $15,000 a year in New Orleans, with no savings, investments, or insurance and ZERO dollars as a refugee in some town is a hell of a lot bigger than the difference between $70,000 a year in Metairie with investments, flood insurance, and connections and living on credit cards in a hotel somewhere else

That's not the point, Brittain33. Poor residents of New Orleans weren't choosing between $15,000 in NO and $0 someplace else. They were choosing between $0 dollars someplace else and $0 plus no food, no security, and a high risk of death or disease in NO. A lot of them chose the latter.

You can't explain that decision by saying "they're poor". Poverty wasn't the problem, ignorance was; they didn't understand how bad things were likely to be.

I don't know which flank to attack here. People who don't think entitlement programs like the GI BILL, FHA LOANS and even the Homestead Act helped create the middle class as we know it today were justified, or medicare, social security, Aid for Financially dependent children, etc.

Or the people who seem to believe that people without cars could WALK 50 miles west to avoid the damage path of a hurricane the size of the state of Florida.

The defense of the administration no matter what happens is woefully apparent on this blog.

--Cobra

Well, Cobra, which 0.01% of the social programs did you think they'd be willing to leave in place? Certainly none of the ones helping the poor. The Cato and Heritage belief in how the programs hurt the poor is just a rationalization. The people at Cato and Heritage have to rationalize their blind faith in the First Church of Free Market. They believe that our system produces enough jobs for everyone who wants one. Not only does it do that but the overwhelming number of those jobs are good enough so that what they don't do can easily be made up for by private charity. Didn't you know that? Didn't you know that it's all the fault of the evil government that interferes with businesses that make it seem otherwise?

Did any of you bother to look at what time of the month it was when the hurricane hit? Do any of you have the slightest idea what kind of money a poor person has left at the end of a pay period whether that money comes from a company or from the government?

Jane,

How are they going to make payments? Currently the best estimates say that the city will be uninhabitable for months. This means that any economic activity it supports won't be up and running for that amount of time. Thousands of jobs provided directly by the casinos in Mississippi won't be there for at least that long. The same will apply to the jobs that came from selling things to the casino workers and customers. It also applies to the jobs at the oil company facilities. The jobs at the ports are also problematic for more than enough time to result in ruined credit ratings. The way the ratings companies work now it doesn't take much.

Jim writes:

>>>Did any of you bother to look at what time of the month it was when the hurricane hit? Do any of you have the slightest idea what kind of money a poor person has left at the end of a pay period whether that money comes from a company or from the government?"

Most of the Heritage/Cato fans don't CARE about that. It's social Darwinism all the way--no saftey net.
I would be extremely curious what the Republican congress is going to do with the BANKRUPTCY changes they rammed through, seeing how many people are affected by this disaster lost everything, including jobs. Let's hear the credit card lobbyist arguments after this one.

--Cobra

Good for you, my dear. Notwithstanding the snottiness of my very first exchange with you over Krugman a few years back (and I still think he's been vindicated on most of his points about the current crew), you and John Cole remain proof that, by God, there IS such a thing as morally responsible and rational rightism.

The people at Cato and Heritage have to rationalize their blind faith in the First Church of Free Market.

No, there is no need to rationalize the "Church of the Free Market", as you put it. The belief that humans should be free to produce whatever goods and services they are capable of*, and trade such on freely negotiated terms, is a first principle for many of us.

*within the limits posed by certain external practicalities, e.g. no manufacturing chemical weapons and selling them on ebay

That's not the point, Brittain33. Poor residents of New Orleans weren't choosing between $15,000 in NO and $0 someplace else. They were choosing between $0 dollars someplace else and $0 plus no food, no security, and a high risk of death or disease in NO. A lot of them chose the latter.

Hmmm...but comparatively, prior to 9/11 actually happening, nobody "really" envisioned that both towers could be leveled in a matter of hours, with a death toll rising into the thousands. Some here and there had speculated about that type of attack, aircraft encounters with tall buildings were known about (e.g. Empire State crash -- which, among other things, sent a building elevator into freefall), close encounters between aircraft and WTC had appeared in popular entertainment, some openly wondered about or estimated the kind of damage, and so forth.

But until the instructive practical lesson was lying in two piles of mingled flesh and rubble, our collective perspectives had no reference point for understanding what it would actually look like. If a 9/11-style attack were perpetrated on another pair of office towers somewhere, you can bet the second tower and all area buildings would be completely evacuated long before the second aircraft even showed up. Because now we know.

Well, I think you could say the same thing for seeing an entire modern city completely wrecked by wind and water. Who knew? Everybody -- and yet, in a sense, nobody, else the levees would have been transformed into the Eighth Wonder of the Technological World decades ago.

Well, I think you could say the same thing for seeing an entire modern city completely wrecked by wind and water. Who knew?

Obviously most of them knew, because the majority of New Orleans residents packed up and got the heck out of town.

else the levees would have been transformed into the Eighth Wonder of the Technological World decades ago.

That's not how the human mind works. People regularly ignore serious dangers if the danger isn't likely to happen in their immediate future. It was inevitable that the city would eventually flood -- it just wasn't likely to happen in any given year. So levee improvements were easy to put off. Kind of like we keep doing with Social Security reform -- another guaranteed disaster nobody wants to pay to avoid.

Damned if the Ayn Randian psychopaths on this thread aren't going to stick it out right to the end; harming someone through action is evil, but harming -- or even killing -- someone through neglect is perfectly morally acceptable and should ALWAYS be allowed. (Presumably Rob Leder and company want the richest American and the poorest American to pay exactly the same total amount in taxes yearly? After all, absolutely everyone in the country could earn as much per hour as Bill Gates if they really wanted to...)

Not that Ms. McArdle herself believes this for a second, thank God - but she has certainly picked up some peculiar vermin on her site.

Jane,

If you knew who you and all of us really are, you would not write "one death is the dreadful arithmetic we all face". The alarm clock of life is blaring into all our consciousness through events like Katrina. Wake up! Wake up! What you think you know ain't really so!

The awfulness of the aftermath is eye-opening... I expected people to break into grocery stores and so on for food and water, but the criminal looting going on - I admit it, I was naive, I gave people the benefit of the doubt and somehow forgot N.O.'s reputation as "Murder Capital USA."

On a visit with our evacuee friend there some years back, my husband and I disappeared for a couple of hours during a crawfish boil, ostensibly to buy more beer for the party (since I was pregnant and therefore the natural DD) but in fact to get something to eat that didn't take a million years to get to (hours of peeling and still hungry - again, chalk it up to the pregnancy, I guess). When we came back to our friend's house, everyone but our friend was gone; she'd sent every other person at the boil out looking for us, fearful that we'd been mugged or murdered. This from the woman for whom we coined the term "Libby time" because when we met her in Seattle, she was perpetually an hour or more late to everything in what we thought was good Big Easy style. It was a sure sign to us of how dangerous the place could be.

No reason to expect that the people she feared our running afoul of wouldn't be among those who stayed behind, knowing that they could profit from the chaos.

Some blog I was on in the middle of the night talked about the "moral hazard" of not shooting looters. All along I've been aware of the cry-wolf problem with evacuating, but add to it now the complete breakdown of law and order - and the people with, proportionately, the most to lose will be that much MORE reluctant to evacuate next time, even though this time neither staying nor leaving seems to have been the "good option" for preserving many people's belongings.

Thorley: There's definitely an Ant and Grasshopper aspect to most stories of large-scale human suffering - but it may be churlish to point it out. A Swedish aphorism has it that lecturing someone after the accident is like giving medicine to the dead.

sbd: I assume you are being risible.

Do the poor really CHOOSE to be poor? I don't know -- do the fat CHOOSE to be fat? Should we perhaps deny public health services to those suffering from the illnesses of obesity because fatness is a self-inflicted wound and walking proof (sedentary proof) of bad character?

Re: Urban poverty. An acquaintance in NYC owned a couple of job-training schools. The students -- almost all of whom were young, impoverished blacks and Hispanics. What was touching was how motivated they were to get ahead in life -- what was discouraging was how far behind they were in almost every detail of what it takes to be employed. F'rinstance, dressing up in chains and other street tough regalia, and thinking that's what wins respect in a job interview. F'rinstance: Having no sense of punctuality. F'rinstance: Having such a slender grasp of standard English that conversation was agonizing (and this for people born and raised here). F'rinstance: growing up in NYC but thinking that Connecticut was three hours away and would require an ID check at the border.

Still and all they were not mean, they were not stupid and they were not lazy--just so profoundly ignorant of the world outside their neighborhoods -- its needs and expectations -- that getting a regular job was a major and often insurmountable challenge.

"People who have few possessions cling tightly to those they have. That is one of the facts that make life so discouraging."

(On the other hand, the truly fat seem to be making choices.)

Do the poor really CHOOSE to be poor? I don't know -- do the fat CHOOSE to be fat?

Yes, we do. Oh, sure, a tiny percentage of us have glandular disorders that cause obesity, but the overwhelming majority of us simply eat too much for the amount of exercise we get. We're well aware that we eat too much; we'd just rather be fat than eat less.

As Clayton Cramer points out: the average poor American owns a car.

Well, that's according to the Heritage Foundation. I'd be more trusting of that claim if it came from a less ideological source.

Some of you fuckers aren't just "closet racists"- you are real, honest-to-god racists. To blame this disaster on the poor people who have lost what precious little they had is a cruel fucking joke that only swine would care to make.

I guess I'm one of those "closet racists" noticing that it seems to be almost exclusively black people who are doing the looting.

Except for the "closet" part, you're right.

I have heard the arguement that many individuals who chose to stay did so because they had no resources to leave.

If someone said there is a million dollars waiting for you two hundred miles away on a park bench -I wonder how many people would have found the resources to get to that park bench.

This would paint more accuate picture of those who truely did not have any means of leaving.

Wow, Jane, that takes real courage blocking references from Corrente.

Any 12-year-old knows how to get around that. And a 6-year-old is above such silliness.

"If someone said there is a million dollars waiting for you two hundred miles away on a park bench -I wonder how many people would have found the resources to get to that park bench."

I can just imagine how you and the other amoral thugs posting here would have gone about getting your grubby hands on that loot.

"Yes, we do. Oh, sure, a tiny percentage of us have glandular disorders that cause obesity, but the overwhelming majority of us simply eat too much for the amount of exercise we get. We're well aware that we eat too much; we'd just rather be fat than eat less."

Ah, so the diet industry is booming despite the lack of demand for the services it claims provide.

Here's the truth: folks like you cling to self-serving mantras that are independent of and impervious to facts. I suggest that you're so appallingly ignorant because you would rather be so than to face your own wretched scumbagitude.

Ah, so the diet industry is booming despite the lack of demand for the services it claims provide

No, the diet industry is booming because a lot of people think that if they just eat the right foods, the fact that they sit on their fat asses all day won't matter.

folks like you cling to self-serving mantras that are independent of and impervious to facts

No, I stick to physics: the key to not gaining weight is to use more energy than you consume. Anyone who disputes that fact is a fucking idiot.

Consider the following:

My problem is that the Governor of Louisiana is a damn fool for not leaving a garrison behind to secure a city that is a majority of Blacks. Once the cops were gone the looting began and the city turned into Mogadishu. The police force was just ordered back into full service duties today wasn't it? Blaming Bush for every single thing that ever happened in the world has a deligitimizing effect on any cause.

and

I just feel sorry for any white people left in that city. I saw video of some white tourists walking aimlessly, dragging their suitcases behind them, looking for help. They said they hadn't seen any police. What a nightmare...white people abandoned in a lawless city full of black people with no police in sight, and no firearms to protect themselves. You can talk all you want about how awful it is to be a racist, but they are the ones who are finding out firsthand the brutal realities of race in this country.

Okay. Little quiz. Which of those quotes comes from this board, and which comes from Stormfront?

Speaking purely in economic terms, the situation in New Orleans is actually quite positive, long-term. Yes there is the destruction of the port and that's bad, but consider: 80% of the population evacuated. The remaining 20% stayed, either because they didn't have the means to leave, or because they were just foolish; how much of each is a guess.

But in EITHER case, you have to consider that these people were essentially surplus. In other words, the least-functional 20% of the population of New Orleans has been eliminated. That obviously INCREASES the overall functionality of the New Orleans population.

I'm not blind to the fact that the people who chose to stay behind are suffering, and that's not good, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. But all things aren't equal. Consider: normally, disasters like this have ALWAYS served to help weed out the less competent. In these days of Mommy Government, these people are saved to drag down the rest of us. This hurts EVERYONE in the long run.

But of course you can NEVER get people to see things this way. It's all Boo hoo hoo look at that baby that Geraldo is holding, let's get the Government to Save That Baby.

Least functional? How many of those people left behind did the jobs that no one else would do? Made beds, cleaned bathrooms, cooked food, swept floors?

And for you closet racist obsessing about stolen TV sets, think about this: the city is going to be abandoned for at least two months. Do you think those things are going to be worth even wholesale to the merchants? Your beloved merchants know that after the rats and other vermin, dust and so forth get to their stuff, they couldn't even give it away. So frankly, they're laughing at you. They, who evacuated the city are going to probably claim double for their inventory and write off everything stolen as "hurricane loss". I wouldn't be surprised if they left some of the burglar alarms and stuff off just so the losses can be padded. They can say everything was washed away in the flood.

Which is why we need government folks. The free market does not promote honesty when it's more advantageous to steal and cheat.

Class war now!!

Floyd: Consider: normally, disasters like this have ALWAYS served to help weed out the less competent.

So you're saying that Bush and his cronies are going to get weeded out?

I couldn't agree more: Chimpeach!

--Riesz

Gosh, I had to go through two steps to get here from Corrente. Blocking links? What is that?

Strong stuff—is the opportunistic looting, shooting, violence, etc. (a) a product of race, or (b) are there other, more subtle forces at work? I go with choice B, but am not unwilling to notice that the largest part of this type of activity in NO seems to be committed by African Americans. If the remaining population in NO had been poor whites, would the result have been materially different? One possible reason is that it is mostly African Americans who are left behind. Our history, and the rest of the world’s, offers sufficient evidence that white people, and every other race, riot and commit mass acts of violence, with much less provocation. Remember the soccer riots in Europe? What happened in the Balkans in the 90’s if it wasn’t white people run amok?
Having said that, there is a subculture among males within the African American community that seems to blend the gangsta mentality with an aversion to education, steady work and parenthood in such way that the veneer of civilization, along with the capacity to function in society, is much thinner than in our society as a whole. This is not unique to the Black community as citizens of Nuevo Laredo well know. Nor to white people, as in the Balkans and soccer games in Europe.
What seems to be lacking in our homegrown gangsta culture is a lack of universal opprobrium for this activity. Where some see a racial cause and effect—with which I disagree and find distasteful to say the least—others seem to be unwilling to acknowledge a sub-cultural component within an ethnic group. Neither is helpful. The larger point is this: race is a secondary issue in any event. If someone is raping, looting, killing, etc., that person is outside the law and must be dealt with accordingly. Enabling and excusing that kind of conduct does nothing to prevent it from happening again. Likewise, blaming race, wrong in itself, inflames a difficult situation and de-legitimizes the law enforcement efforts needed to bring order.

Least functional? How many of those people left behind did the jobs that no one else would do? Made beds, cleaned bathrooms, cooked food, swept floors?

I'm not defending Floyd's comment. I just wanted to point out that "jobs no one else will do" is just another way of saying "jobs that aren't that important". Take your examples, for instance: are maids and chefs really high priorities for New Orleans right now?

And for you closet racist obsessing about stolen TV sets, think about this: the city is going to be abandoned for at least two months. Do you think those things are going to be worth even wholesale to the merchants?

You do realize, of course, that your claim that only people who are anti-black think that stealing is wrong implies that people who are pro-black or race-neutral think that stealing is right? Congrats on giving the David Dukes of the world more ammunition for their racist claims.

You've also forgotten that 20% of the city didn't flood. That 20% is *also* being heavily looted. On top of that, of the 80% that did flood, most of it did not see every building flooded floor to ceiling. There's a lot of material in New Orleans that made it through the hurricane and the flood just fine and is now being stolen by looters. Not because they're black, not because they're desperate, but because they're amoral scum taking advantage of the lack of police.

Oh, and by the way -- "New Orleans will be flooded for months" does not mean "it will be months before people can recover their goods". They could go in and recover them next week if the remaining inhabitants of the city aren't busy shooting at innocent people.

Okay, so some of you think that if people really wanted to leave they could have. Okay, you don't have a car.... so you can walk, right.... well, have any of you EVER tried walking 50 miles. How many of you can walk even 1 mile. Now add in the fact that the bridge you need to get across the river is destroyed... Now, can you walk out.... And suppose now that you are disabled or frail... can you walk 50 miles...

"I see no moral, pragmatic, or constitutional argument to justify 99.9% of the social programs created in the 20th century, and I would repeal them with a snap of my fingers if I could."

And if you could, I hope you lose everything and have to deal with being on the other side.

I guess I'm one of those "closet racists"

That's a first: someone outed themself.

And if you could, I hope you lose everything and have to deal with being on the other side

If I lost everything, I'd collect the insurance money and buy it back.

Dan,

Sure, its just that easy.

You dick.

Oh now Upset, why did you even ask about whether these folks commenting here could walk out of New Orleans! You ought to know the answer to that by now!

After all, the 101st Fighting Keyboarders are quite well known for being in such great shape, don't you know? Most of them can get up, walk across the room and get another bag of cheese doodles after all.

Now as for walking more than 50-100 yards, they're probably not in shape enough to do that as you should know by now.

They're mostly overpaid, overweight, pampered and soft white snobs who have never been required to sacrifice anything in their lives as evidenced by what you're reading here.

Shoot the TRAITORS -- not the looters.

Grain barges loaded with explosives by MOSSAD and local SAYANIM traitors were rammed into the LEVEE thus ensuring the flooding of the city. This is the reason why the response was SLOW -- they had to break the LEVEE with few or no witnesses present. Local SAYANIM and MOSSAD snipers have been acting as snipers and have been murdering NEW ORLEANS police officers this past week.

Land fall at PASS CHRISTIAN at 911 millibars right through the crescent of the "crescent city". The crescent is a symbol commonly associated with ISLAM. Dead bodies and blood flowing through the crescent -- a spell was cast in New Orleans by the Lucifer worshipping Kabbalah Occultists.

Michael Brown (the FEMA official in charge of rescue efforts) was FIRED from his last job for mismanagement and allegations of corruption, according to the Boston Globe.

Michael Levy (quoted in several media sources) has been riling up people at the convention center for days and getting them to chant things against the government -- typical anti american / zionist shill distracting from the ones really responsible for this.

14 year old girl raped to death (for four hours) at the convention center, according to several media sources.

7 year old boy raped to death, according to several media sources. Babies throats slits.

These zionist media shills and related whores are attempting to create a race war. ILLEGALS (gangs) vs. ALL, White people vs. ILLEGALS, Black people vs. ALL. WAKE UP PEOPLE !!! Its the ZIONISTS in the corner.

Too many coincidences -- wake up you BRAINWASHED sheep / slaves -- ITS THE ZIONISTS stupid. The child raping, robbing, and murdering JUDEO MASONICS / ZIONISTS are NOT religious -- they hide under the guise of RELIGION to fool you. Ever heard of wolves in sheeps clothing?

Now the zion media whores are blaming the victims (mostly poor, indigent, and elderly with no means to evacuate) for not evacuating -- a typical perverted zionist spin.

As they anticipated you all are needlessly mired in the minutae of Hurricane Katrina -- just like 911. Learn from the past or you will be doomed to repeat it.

The ZIONISTS thrive only if they CONTROL all sides of an issue -- as they ususally do.

The WHOS are the only important issue relating to 911, Katrina (who broke the LEVEES), Londo, Beslan, Madrid, and the school shooters. Its that elephant in the corner stupid -- called ZIONISM.

Who owns & operates the media -- that is why these SPY stories involving ISRAEL are buried or never pursued. The ZION spinning is well under way in New Orleans. They thrive on controlling ALL sides of an issue. They are pointing the finger at everyone, intentionally creating chaos. This CHAOS ensures the finger is never pointed where it belongs -- at them.

1. What do the following have in common: Clinton, Condit, Mc Greevy and 4 star general Byrnes ???

2. What do the following have in common: Lewinsky, Levy, and Cippel ???

the answer to #1 is: They were all duped into a MOSSAD honey trap.

the answer to #2 is: They are all MOSSAD agents and all happen to be self identified practicers of judaism. Only 1.9% of the US population identifies themselves as practicing judasim. This is beyond coincidence. What about all the school shooters ???

DONT LET THE ZION MEDIA SHILLS / WHORES distract from the reality that the MOSSAD has been trying to deceive our nation into fighting israels enemies for some time — including their complicity in 911 and their destruction of the LEVEE in New Orleans. PURGE THE ZION TRAITORS including the scumbags FRANKLIN, ROSEN, and WEISSMAN.

ZIONISTS are ANTI 1st amendment and ANTI 2nd amendment and they are also ANTI AMERICAN.

The #1 terrorist / spy organization in the USA continues to operate openly in Washington DC — its called AIPAC.

Imagine this: In the middle of our 'war on terror,' a foreign government (Israel) has spies who have infiltrated the highest levels of the Department of Defense.

Larry Franklin, Rosen, Weissman and the AXIS of ADL, AIPAC, and ISRAELI TRAITORS / ESPIONAGE — all indicted.

ZIONIST Douglas Feith (the architect of the IRAQ war and the boss of indicted spy Larry Franklin) resigned August 9th, 2005 and has fled the country. This story was also buried.

Who owns the MEDIA, the VOTE COUNTING MACHINES, the MILITARY, the POLITICIANS, the FEDERAL RESERVE ??? Research it to get ENLIGHTENED.

The sudden use of “HOMELAND” instead of “our country” or “our nation” – is word warfare. Why are we not talking about protecting our country or our nation? I’ll tell you why. We are no longer to think of the USA as a sovereign nation – we are to think of ourselves as having a “homeland” in the ZIONIST government. Ironically, "HOMELAND SECURITY" is run by a dual US-ISRAELI citizen named Michael Chertoff.

Those who think this is going to far – have no idea of the heartless, ruthless, gutless psycho-warfare propagandists we should be fighting.

Remove these dual citizens from critical posts in the USA government IMMEDIATELY -- such as Michael Chertoff. NO MORE dual loyalties. This is a war -- not pattie cakes with your playground chums. "WAR THROUGH DECEPTION"

A squad / commission should be immediately established to find the zion agents / traitors responsible for destroying the LEVEE. These types of squads for TRAITORS are commonly referred to as FIRING SQUADS.

"No one censors speech they agree with."

Regarding NOLA, All rightwing supporters of, and apologists for,
this evildoing president and his cancervative administration HAVE BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS!

Not everything is morally relative (as the GOP would have us believe).

There are some absolutes.

And the blood on the hands of all bush-supporting GOPers is one of those absolutes.

And God is watching.

Hey, YMMS, you missed one! (Of course, how can you possibly follow the last two rants?)

Sure, its just that easy.

Yes, it really is. So long as you live responsibly, your chances of permanently falling out of the middle class are virtually zero.

Okay, so some of you think that if people really wanted to leave they could have.

If you have no means of transportation - maybe it isn't wise to live in a shallow bowl surrounded by water that is targeted by mother natures fury. Personal responsibility and common sense go along way.

How many people were unwilling vs unable? Who knows....but I doubt 100% of those that stayed were the latter. People must learn that when an evacuation is ordered - it can't be ignored.

All pictures of the victims that died needlessly following Katrina and the flood should have the caption - George W. Bush's "Culture of Life".

I just wanted to point out that "jobs no one else will do" is just another way of saying "jobs that aren't that important".

What an incredibly funny thing to say. Bravo, Dan, for injecting some humor into the topic!

"do the fat CHOOSE to be fat?"

All those I know (including myself) do. I must be going to the wrong bars.

**
I'd like to point out that the only out-and-out Nazi drawn to this board (yet! the weekend is still young!!), Mr. "Able Dagger," is providing a breath of fresh air in a sick way.

This example of genuine (unless it's a parody, which is almost scarier in a way) racist insanity should show all us 10-degrees-right-of-center South Park pottymouths, and all us 10-deg.-left NPRniks, that we're really not so far apart in the global scheme of things ...

... or we could just continue to call each other names. Either way.

Having said that, there is a subculture among males within the African American community that seems to blend the gangsta mentality with an aversion to education, steady work and parenthood in such way that the veneer of civilization, along with the capacity to function in society, is much thinner than in our society as a whole.

Thankfully your point makes total sense as no major political parties have tried to paint their obviously retarded presidential candidate as "down to earth" and "working class friendly", while painting his fellow yale graduate opponent as an elitist ivy league college boy. Red states are welfare states strangely enough, but correlation doesn't prove causation! execpt when it proves your point of course, in which case it does.

The descendants of slaves are of course the lazy ones, why didn't their parents just get a college education during segregation the lazy fucks, then the modern generation would be middle class just like the white folk.

the descendants of slave owners did of course Earn the way of life their parents handed down to them. What could be wrong with that world view?

You all make me so proud of the sheer cuteness we white people can produce when we try.

I'm also sure that the white population of local states would have welcomed with open arms (and not currently aflame crosses) the million or so "useless" black people coming to their town for work and accomadation with no money or power that they could use to not become a source of cheap labour for local freemarket minded employers.

And it woudl be really counter intuitive woudln't it if poor black people did tend to look down on intellectuals such as yourselves who espouse how much better these inferior black people's lives would be if not for the lazy getto culture they wallow in and their skin colour, of course I'm in the skin bleaching business personally so all this talk just counts as free advertisment, Ka Ching!

"But in EITHER case, you have to consider that these people were essentially surplus. In other words, the least-functional 20% of the population of New Orleans has been eliminated. That obviously INCREASES the overall functionality of the New Orleans population."

"I'm not blind to the fact that the people who chose to stay behind are suffering, and that's not good, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. But all things aren't equal. Consider: normally, disasters like this have ALWAYS served to help weed out the less competent. In these days of Mommy Government, these people are saved to drag down the rest of us. This hurts EVERYONE in the long run."

"But of course you can NEVER get people to see things this way. It's all Boo hoo hoo look at that baby that Geraldo is holding, let's get the Government to Save That Baby."

"Posted by: Floyd Alvis Cooper on September 3, 2005 05:10 AM"

Is this for real?

We are all essentially surplus. No matter how vital you think your contribution is, if you fell under a train, the world would go on with minimal practical and economic disturbance. "Essentially surplus" is an argument for allowing the death of anyone.

In (primarily white) Vancouver, after losing a hockey game, there was looting in the major shopping & tourist district. Race has nothing to do with it. In Western Canada, the impoverished are primarily White and Native, not black. Americans: please realize that your society is not in fact the only way societies may organize themselves - you cannot equate a given race universally to a given class or culture simply because that's the way you've done it. Did you think that the Carribean was filled with gangsta rappers? What utter stupidity.

Hell, in my hometown, all the deadbeat addicted and violent were vets and their kids. You really want to get up in their faces? Sometimes, there's shit going on for people that makes it a little harder to deal with making it on the corporate ladder. Perhaps you have no sympathy: perhaps you've never walked a mile in those shoes. Lack of empathy is, to me, a failure of imagination and an unwillingness to look beyond yourself: blaming it on race is just evil.

Okay. Little quiz. Which of those quotes comes from this board, and which comes from Stormfront?

What's the difference?

It takes moments like this in our nation to truly see what our fellow citizens are truly made of.

To those volunteers who risk their own lives plucking people out of the water in bass boats, the ANGELS at that charity hospital, the people who didn't riot, and patiently listened to the instructions given by their government despite hellish conditions, I have some glimmer of hope for America.

To the rest of these zipless, racist, cyberklanning punks, I pray you take your conversations outside in public instead of hiding behind keyboards. I dare you to spout that social darwinist crap out loud around REAL Americans of any race, especially after this tragedy. Blacks, whites, hispanics, native Americans...you forget the demographics of the Gulf Coast--are all affected, but that doesn't stop this satanic hatred and contempt for the poor.

The world is watching, and right now, the United States of America is in NO POSITION to tell ANYBODY how democracy should look after this week's performance.

--Cobra

»The world is watching, and right now, the United States of America is in NO POSITION to tell ANYBODY how democracy should look after this week's performance. ...«

Thank U, Cobra!

So long as you live responsibly, your chances of permanently falling out of the middle class are virtually zero.

Dan,

Just wondering how old you are? I'll be fifty next year and lost my job of 19.5 years in March, despite three exceptional service awards, consistently meeting and surpassing the goals my employer set for me, three promotions and leadership roles in projects. Why? Who knows. The company consistently showed revenue increases for the past fifteen years. I was not terminated for cause.

Fortunately I found another job fairly quickly, but a good friend of mine who has a wall full of IT credentials and is a couple of years older than me was let go from Merrill Lynch 2.5 years ago and has had to do without health insurance for himself and his wife (he paid for COBRA coverage until it ran out). He has been doing contract jobs and while trying to get full time work at these jobs, his coworkers frequently tell him that he's probably too old to get offered a job.

Now he's in New Zealand interviewing as much as he can over the course of two weeks as a recruiter contacted him on behalf of a few companies. If he doesn't get an offer there, he will have to sell his house and move in with his mother-in-law. He has exhausted his savings and one medical crisis will wipe him out.

When I was attending outplacement services, virtually everyone I encountered had similar stories. So if you think it's "virtually zero," perhaps you need to see things from the other side.

I'm not blind to the fact that the people who chose to stay behind are suffering, and that's not good, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. But all things aren't equal. Consider: normally, disasters like this have ALWAYS served to help weed out the less competent. In these days of Mommy Government, these people are saved to drag down the rest of us. This hurts EVERYONE in the long run.

So what's the point? Isn't a truly good society one that accounts and cares for all people, regardless of their condition and situation? Seriously, what do you think we're headed to by "weeding out the weak"? Because if this really is a race, then it doesn't seem to go anywhere.

Randy,

The relevant question isn't "do you know any middle-class people who have become poor". It is "what percentage of the middle-class people you know have, through no fault of their own, become poor and stayed that way". My statement was that the chances of permanently falling out of middle class were virtually zero -- not that the number of people this happens to is virtually zero. And I'm not sure it means anything that you met people who were having job-hunting problems at an outplacement service. That's a bit like encountering football fans at an NFL game, wouldn't you say?

Also, have you considered that your friend would have had an extra couple hundred thousand dollars in savings if he hadn't been being taxed to pay for the various entitlement programs designed to "help" him?

"The world is watching, and right now, the United States of America is in NO POSITION to tell ANYBODY how democracy should look after this week's performance."

Agreed. I'm here in Canada and I'm disgusted and saddened by the U.S. government's actions.
I feel sorry for ALL Americans who have to suffer under the Bush administration.

Horrific.

Liberating Iraq proved to be very effective in liberating the minds of many Americans from their phony ideals propaganda.

Katrina cemented it!

The American culture has always been synonymous with racism. Its tradition predicts an eventual race war between Whites and Mongrels. Katrina is the beginning.

Blacks around the US will see this as proof that they are lower class citizens. This will stengthen the anti-White sentiment that has been promoted very forcefuly and blatently through RAP.

Black gangs will grow stronger in the next months or so in New Orleans (reconstruction will take months) and the surroundings.

The authorities will have to deal with these gangs, but will have alot of trouble since they have an abundance of hideouts in the city (gangs of armed men, and snipers shot and maybe killed police and army personnel while they were trying to rescue survivors).

Black gangs around the US will start gaining confidence and organizing in a more political way (wich makes the members more convinced and more productive). They will start taking what, in their view, belongs to them; and get the "whities" terorized.

When the real Whites, who have the means to defend themselves, cannot rely on the government for their safety, the HAMMER WILL FALL, they will take control of their destiny.

Seems like fantasy, but then again a war in the Middle East (with close to 2000 deaths in 2 years) and a Cataclysm did also seem unreal.

There is a race war comming up choose your colour!

This thread is really bringing out the wingnuts. Omen, are you serious or just trying to see what kind of manure you can stir up? Anyone who thinks skin pigmentation is a marker for anything other than skin pigmentation is (a) out of their mind and (b) no libertarian, or any other person who respects the dignity of the individual. I deleted the rest of my post because, quite frankly, the tone and tenor of this thread is beyond reason. It is possible to have a frank and perhaps even productive discussion on race in America without this ridiculous name calling and overt racism, but not with the sewage being posted here.

Comments should be closed and people like Omen permanently barred.

Mckinney! This is Omen. Even if you don't like me I like this message board, it is truly efficient in its posting. But blocking people from speaking their minds is the way Bush works. If a thread makes you uneasy you don't have to read it. Besides, I am sure that the reason my comments shocked you is that you think it's very possible for this to happen. Not tommorow but in less than ten years (two more moron presidents)! By that time you might have changed you mind about where your country is heading.

You will not be able to close your eyes when blacks in cities (most american cities with more than 2 million inhabitants have a black majority or close to it) stop respecting the law because they know the police won't do anything because of a lack of resources.

The recession we are in now will only get worse and poverty will become more common and acceptable. As has become pimpin, becoming a porn star, G Strings for 11 year old girls, giving ritalin (downers) to kids. We are creating little ammoral monsters. What do you think these weak, destroyed minds will think when they are 25 years old without a job and in the same shit minorities are in today. "We have to make the rules from now on, our soccer moms didn't know shit when they raised us".

The ones who think like this are the reactionaries, not right wing or left, just plain reaction. They will want to destroy all. Only white power "crazzies" can accomodate that type of thinking.

Get ready for a big stink!

Also, have you considered that your friend would have had an extra couple hundred thousand dollars in savings if he hadn't been being taxed to pay for the various entitlement programs designed to "help" him?

My friend has a son with special needs.In light of that, when he bought his house, he specifically sought a house in Tenafly, NJ because the public schools were excellent and although the property taxes were high, it was still cheaper than a private school and he could deduct the property taxes from his income tax.

Even if he had that couple of hundred thousand saved, it doesn't do you much good when you are discriminated against either directly or in a sub rosa fashion because of your age. The savings could still run out.

And I'm not sure it means anything that you met people who were having job-hunting problems at an outplacement service. That's a bit like encountering football fans at an NFL game, wouldn't you say?

Yeah - if I was a dilettante. Unforuntately your jejune response ignored the rest of my comment: these people were having difficulty finding jobs because of their age and because business people are more interested in getting cheap labor overseas through outsourcing.

The relevant question isn't "do you know any middle-class people who have become poor". It is "what percentage of the middle-class people you know have, through no fault of their own, become poor and stayed that way".

Actually what you wrote was this:

"So long as you live responsibly, your chances of permanently falling out of the middle class are virtually zero."

Nice attempt at moving the goalposts. I've known many people in the same situation as the friend I mentioned. Time to take off the blinders.

If you regard these times as your salad days, perhaps you should consider the rest of that quote:

"My salad days, when I was green in judgment."

Don't think it can't happen to you.

Actually what you wrote was this: "So long as you live responsibly, your chances of permanently falling out of the middle class are virtually zero." Nice attempt at moving the goalposts.

If the chance of a person experiencing something is X%, then we expect X percent of people to experience it. There's no inconsistency between my claims; the way to determine if my claim that "the chances of it happening are near-zero" is true is to examine a large population of people and see what percentage of them it has happened to. So, no, the goalposts haven't moved anywhere -- you just got confused.

By the way, would you mind explaining why your responsible friend with the high-paying career had virtually no savings or equity by his mid-50s? I can't help but think that you've been concealing something to make your friend seem more like a typical American worker.

Unforuntately your jejune response ignored the rest of my comment

Because the rest of your comment was irrelevant. You encountered a lot of people who have work problems at a place where people with work problems congregate. That does nothing to refute my claim that the chances of permanently becoming poor are virtually zero.

Don't think it can't happen to you.

"The chances are virtually zero" does mean "it could happen", you realize? Similarly, as a non-drunk who tries to drive safely my chances of dying in a car crash are something less than 0.0025. So it is true both that I *could* die in a car crash, and that the chances of my doing so are virtually zero.

By the way, would you mind explaining why your responsible friend with the high-paying career had virtually no savings or equity by his mid-50s? I can't help but think that you've been concealing something to make your friend seem more like a typical American worker.

I don't think that I can do that because I never said that. Nor did I say that he had a high-paying career. He was making a high five to low six figure salary. Perhaps you should read a little more carefully. He went through his savings through 2.5 years of unemployment, underemployment and spotty contract work: three months here, six months there at about 1/3 to 1/2 of his previous salary while assiduously avoiding accruing additional debt.

You encountered a lot of people who have work problems at a place where people with work problems congregate. That does nothing to refute my claim that the chances of permanently becoming poor are virtually zero.

All of whom faced the same sort of age discrimination and outsourcing problems. If you can't smell a pattern here, then I feel you're in denial.

In any event, your comment is only a claim, i.e., an opinion. I'm sure you know the old saying about opinions.

Knemon,

Thank you for proving the points in my post with your typical PERVERTED zion spin and name calling.

ZIONISTS are ANTI 1st amendment and ANTI 2nd amendment and they are also ANTI AMERICAN, as evidenced by their actions and speech.

The child raping, robbing, and murdering JUDEO MASONICS / ZIONISTS are NOT religious -- they hide under the guise of RELIGION to fool you. Ever hear of wolves in sheeps clothing?

ALL PEOPLE ARE EQUAL -- do not forget it.

WHO BROKE THE LEVEE INTENTIONALLY ?

There is nothing "natural" about INTENTIONALLY breaking a LEVEE.

Nothing is "predictable" about INTENTIONALLY breaking a LEVEE to FLOOD a city.

The Hurricane caused only superficial damage to the city.

This one LEVEE was deliberately broken after the hurricane passed and resulted in 80% of the flooding in the city. This is why the "response" was INTENTIONALLY delayed -- few or no witnesses to the intentional LEVEE break.

Not surprisingly, the operation and maintenance of the LEVEE was under the authority of ZIONISTS (jewish gambling interests particularly -- SAYANIM). RESEARCH IT TO GET ENLIGHTENED.

A squad / commission should be immediately established to find the zion agents / traitors responsible for INTENTIONALLY breaking the LEVEE.

A separate squad / commission should be established to find the ZION media whores and ancillary PERVERTED shills who are aiding and abetting the TRAITORS / MURDERERS via their propaganda / lies.

These types of squads for TRAITORS are commonly referred to as FIRING SQUADS.

READ MY POSTS ABOVE.

"no one censors speech they agree with"

I don't think that I can do that because I never said that.

You said he burned through all his savings in two and a half years. That means that either he spent enormous amounts of money during those years, or his savings were much smaller than they should have been for a person who saved responsibly.

Nor did I say that he had a high-paying career. He was making a high five to low six figure salary. Perhaps you should read a little more carefully.

Perhaps you should have yourself checked for senility. That salary puts him in the top 15% of wage earners; it is undeniably a high-paying job.

If you can't smell a pattern here, then I feel you're in denial

I'm tired of explaining to you that there's nothing unusual about finding people with job problems at an outplacement service. The only "pattern" it is possible to spot here is that when competent IT people have trouble finding work, it is due to age or outsourcing. That doesn't tell us how likely IT people are to have trouble finding work in the first place, and it doesn't tell us the actually *relevant* bit of information, which is what percentage of those people have so much trouble finding work that, despite half a lifetime of living and saving responsibly, they find themselves permanently impoverished later in life.

Many of the comments here are disturbing. As a researcher, I have to address the following:

choosing to be poor: I think this was already touched upon, but from what I have studied, people do not CHOOSE to be poor. Perhaps some of the choice to which you refer is an individual's sense of defeat based on prior experience of attempting to simply get ahead. New Orleans is 2/3 black, and most of those folks who lived down there have a long and painful history of segregation, poverty, alienation, and exclusion from those with money and power. If you take the region's disgraceful history of slavery and elitism, one could easily understand the current situation of the now destitute citizens of New Orleans.

But perhaps the idea of "choosing poverty" helps some folks sleep better at night.

It is interesting that is has now become acceptable to this country to be very open about the racism and hate. When Chartoff blamed the victims of Katrina for their own fate suggesting they were too stupid to evacuate, it has shined a light on the hypocrisy of this country. The argument that the poor choose poverty is stunning. It use to be an insult to be called a red neck in this country. Now people seem to think it is a badge of honor. It is not, it is a sign of stupidity, a close mind and the inability to analyze any situation beyond the simplist of explainations. Dan, grow up, igniting a flame war adds nothing to the discussion. But that is really what you want as you sit typing in the basement of your mama's house isn't it?

"Choosing Poverty" is yet another way for the "haves" to feel superior to the "Have Nots", plain and simple. We are being governed an administration who thinks making the rich richer and the poor poorer is a good evolution of society. We are going backwards, and it is sad :(
I disagree with what Kenye West said at the benefit concert, Bush doesn't hate blacks, he just hates the poor.

Is it lack of planning that keeps the working poor where they are, Dan? Pretty much stuck there if certain choices are gone.

I guess I'm one of those "closet racists" ...

What a nightmare...white people abandoned in a lawless city full of black people with no police in sight, and no firearms to protect themselves. You can talk all you want about how awful it is to be a racist, but they are the ones who are finding out firsthand the brutal realities of race in this country.

As a white person living in a predominantly black neighborhood, I'd say there's nothing closeted about your racism.

TJIC, MarkJ, Rob Leder, sdb510, Floyd Alvis Cooper, You're all a bunch of turds, you especially TJIC for espousing some of the most ignorant, bigoted views it has ever been my displeasure to read. You make me ashamed to be an American. The average IQ is 100 by definition, and I guess I don't need to figure out which side of the Gaussian your score is on.

Able Dagger, you're just nuts, spewing a lot of bovine scatology with no proof to back it up, you get the coveted Tin Foil Hat Award, for seeing conspiracies where none exist. Ever tried piloting a ship in a category 5 storm? Or even one pulling a barge? I didn't think so, pretty impossible to ram a levee with a ship, or a barge, when the average wave front is over fifty feet high. Dick!

Jane Galt, your comments section won't let me enter my e-mail address with a number 7 in it for some reason. E-mails have numbers in them, so I'm puzzled as to why this is happening. Finally I removed the number and replaced it with the word, but the e-mail address doesn't appear to be hot-linked. Just a heads-up.

WHO BROKE THE LEVEE INTENTIONALLY BY RAMMING IT WITH GRAIN BARGES ???

THE FACTS:

#1 The LEVEE was under the operation and control (via the corruption of local LEVEE boards) of ZIONIST gambling interests.

#2 FIVE SHOT DEAD IN NEW ORLEANS were DEPT OF DEFENSE workers investigating the INTENTIONAL LEVEE BREAK.

#3 Intentionally breaking the 17th street levee flooded 80% of the city and caused the CHAOS -- the LEVEE was intentionally broken after the storm had passed. The storm was only CAT 2 strength when it passed over the city. This is the reason why the response was INTENTIONALLY SLOW -- few or no witnesses to the INTENTIONAL BREAKING OF THE LEVEE.

#4 There is nothing "natural" or "predictable" when a LEVEE IS INTENTIONALLY BROKEN.

#5 ZIONISTS are ANTI 1st amendment and ANTI 2nd amendment and they are also ANTI AMERICAN, as evidenced by their own actions and speech.

#6 The child raping, robbing, and murdering JUDEO MASONICS / ZIONISTS are NOT religious -- they hide under the guise of RELIGION to fool you. Ever hear of wolves in sheeps clothing?

#7 The #1 terrorist / spy organization in the USA continues to operate openly in Washington DC — its called AIPAC. ADL is a close second.

#8 A squad / commission should be immediately established to find the zion agents / traitors responsible for destroying the LEVEE.

#9 These types of squads for TRAITORS are commonly referred to as FIRING SQUADS.

#10 Why were they putting the names of the LOST people on sticky notes??? It sickened me when I saw that. They should have had hundreds of techs with computers entering the names in databases. Where has all the LOOTED homeland security billions gone??? It has paid for sticky notes apparently and has been LOOTED by zionist TRAITORS and cronies. Not surprisingly, “HOMELAND SECURITY” is run by a dual US-ISRAELI citizen.

#11 ALL PEOPLE ARE EQUAL -- do not forget this. This even includes silly twisty shills like Stentor. It was a CAT 2 stength (see #3 above) when it passed over the city -- NOT a CAT 5.

"no one censors speech they agree with"

I think this was already touched upon, but from what I have studied, people do not CHOOSE to be poor.

Most of the poor, through hard work and prudent financial decisions, cease to be poor after a few years. So it is certainly true that those people don't choose to be poor; they choose to be middle class, and work to that end. And some people, due to physical and mental disability, are incapable of working and thus have no way to escape poverty. Obviously they're not choosing to be poor either.

Most of the rest of the poor don't so much "choose to be poor" as "choose not to work enough to escape poverty" or "choose to make stupid decisions about how to live their lives or spend their money". Those foolish decisions cause them to remain poor; in that sense, they are choosing to be poor.

If you take the region's disgraceful history of slavery and elitism, one could easily understand the current situation of the now destitute citizens of New Orleans.

The problem with your theory is that almost 100% of American blacks are descendants of slaves, and 100% of American blacks are descendants of people who experienced horrible institutionalized racism -- but only 24.3% of blacks are poor. That's what's wrong with the "poverty is never the poor person's fault" mentality. It carries with it the corollary that any escape from poverty must be purely due to luck. It insults the hard work of most of the nation -- most especially that of the 75% of blacks who, despite being descended from the same penniless, uneducated slaves as the other 25%, have managed to pull themselves out of poverty through hard work and intelligence.

That's what's wrong with the "poverty is never the poor person's fault" mentality.

Your theory, that "poverty is always the poor person's own fault" is what is allowing Republicans to destroy this country.

You do make a concession for the disabled poor. Clap clap. Real compassionate of you to admit it's not their fault. Very generous. Do you think the Government should help them out, or would that make them even lazier handicapped people than they already are?

I would like to see what foolish choices you might have made if you had been born through no fault of your own in the wrong zip code. I would like to see you try to survive childhood in housing projects, surrounded by violence, drugs and crappy public schools that are underfunded because the adults in your zip code make less than people in the suburbs.

Libertarians and conservatives fail (on purpose) to understand the difference between the concepts of Possibility and Probability. Sure, there is the Possibility you might have made it out of the projects and achieved comfortable middle class status, but it's more Probable you would have wound up a crackhead or a corpse. Especially if you had been born with the same personality.

If you had been born in a comfortable middle class neighborhood, it is more probable you would wind up comfortable

"Around 24.4% of African-Americans are living below the poverty line, the highest incidence among racial groups."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1291859,00.html

Why is that, Dan? Are African-Americans more prone to making bad decisions than other racial groups? Us lefties who believe in weird scientific concepts like cause and effect think it might be becuse of unfair, discriminatory policy decisions by Businesses and the Government.

What do you think is the cause?

1. Is it the Gangsta Rap? That Black Americans have not sufficiently embraced the concept of personal responsibility? They just don't know how to get motivated?

or is it

2. That African-Americans are somehow genetically not predisposed to personal responsibility and hard work?

Number 1 makes you a moron. And number 2 makes you a racist. So does #1 actually.

The idea that a huge, defined segment of societ would choose to live in hunger, filth, violence and humiliation over choosing to live in a nice home and work at a good job because of the music they listen to or because they haven't read any Ayn Rand is just stupid.

"According to the annual Census Bureau report, another 1.3 million Americans slid into poverty during the year [2003], taking the total to 35.9 million, around 12.5% of the population."

(from the same article)

Is the Gangsta Rap spreading to all racial groups? Did 1.3 million people suddenly start making foolish choices?

You're probably just another Libertarian selfish brat who likes simple answers for the bad things that happen in the world around him. Simple answers that cancel out any difficult feelings of compassion or solidarity for fellow Americans.

But your ideology, when taken to its logical conclusions in situations like these, causes a lot of Americans to die for no reason. The selfish brat in charge probably feels the same way you do about poor people and the poor people formerly living in New Orleans.

"Most of the poor, through hard work and prudent financial decisions, cease to be poor after a few years."

Hahahahahah!!!!

That's the most amusing thing I've read in a long while.

I grew up poor. Now, my mom had certain privileges - parents who valued education, a mother who worked in society houses and learned the manners and culture of the upper classes, help from the Canadian Student Loan system (and subsidized post-secondary) - and she pulled us out of poverty over a period of 20 years. I grew up with middle class culture in the middle of impoverished neighbourhoods. I am middle class: it was my mom's work, and HER parents' work, that made middle class possible for me. That's 3 generations before my family threw themselves over the poverty line. I have RESPs for my kids, RRSPs for myself, insurance, and extended medical. So are the trappings: I'd be okay in a financial crisis.

I had a leg up, based on the work of my elders.
By the time I was 14, I'd read hundreds of books more than my friends had.
I understood of middle class manners.
I saw how education worked, and understood that it was possible.

Still, I won't get an inheritence, my family (in any generation) owns no land, and I'm paying off my own student loans: it is my children who will truly have the trappings of comfort that many of my peers have.

Did my friends (most of whom are still impoverished) have lazy, lie-abed parents? Well, hey. T., my best friend, had a dad who worked two jobs: a fairly well paying factory job, and a security job. Mom stayed home, looking after grandpa and two kids, and other kids for pick up money.

They had dental bills. They had prescriptions. They had dependants. They did not understand the value of reading. They understood most rudimentarily the value of education - finishing high school - but the idea of loans for post-secondary was overwhelming and not possible. They didn't understand nutrition in any meaningful way, or politics, or economics.

On the other hand, they knew car engines, carpentry, plumbing, electrical, and other such practical intelligences better than most people I am now peers with: these are not stupid people -- they have DIFFERENT SURVIVAL SPECIALIZATIONS. They collected knowledge every day that made their lives more possible; T's dad would have been okay, if alone, in NO, but his whole family? Good luck.

If either my family or T's family had been asked to evacute our homes we COULD NOT HAVE. My mom rarely had more than $5 in her wallet. T's family had kids and a sick elderly person.

T is in the same neighbourhood. She's still poor.

Your reality isn't, Dan. People who are working damn hard all over your country - the backbone of your country - deserve to be given more credit than that.

That's the most amusing thing I've read in a long while.

Well, laugh all you like, but when you sober up you should look at poverty statistics. In any given year, around 20% to 50% of those below the poverty line climb above it (the rate varies with the economy) and around 3% of those above it fall below it. Thus, the typical poor family spends only a few years being poor. The overall number of poor remains roughly constant primarily due to immigration (immigrants tend to be poor) and childbirth.

By the time I was 14, I'd read hundreds of books more than my friends had. I understood of middle class manners. I saw how education worked, and understood that it was possible

Your friends made foolish decisions and ended up paying for it. Look, both society at large and teachers in general say that education is important, that reading is important, and that proper behavior is important. If your friends blew off that advice, that is their fault; they made a decision to remain ignorant.

T is in the same neighbourhood. She's still poor.

What the heck's *her* excuse? She's got a high school diploma, right? What, she didn't have the minimal motivation to hold a job at Bed Bath and Beyond or something? Sheesh.

People who are working damn hard all over your country - the backbone of your country - deserve to be given more credit than that

The poverty line is $9827 for a single adult --that's less than minimum wage, and there are no important or difficult jobs that pay minimum wage to anyone who isn't an illegal immigrant. The poverty line is slightly under $19300 for a family of four. That's $9.25 an hour, assuming a single wage earner. The nation-wide average hourly wage for a full-time worker at Wal-Mart is $9.98.

So spare me that "backbone of the country" foolishness. The backbone of the country is the middle class.

Dan must be pretty young. Anyone who's been a working member of the middle class -- not upper -- for more than twenty years knows that life involves many, many variables. It's certainly not as simple as work hard, save your money, eat your vegetables and everything will be okay. My advice would be watch out, hubris is a bitch.

Well, laugh all you like, but when you sober up you should look at poverty statistics. In any given year, around 20% to 50% of those below the poverty line climb above it (the rate varies with the economy) and around 3% of those above it fall below it. Thus, the typical poor family spends only a few years being poor. The overall number of poor remains roughly constant primarily due to immigration (immigrants tend to be poor) and childbirth.

I think the difference here, Dan, is you're talking about statistics whereas other people are talking about first-hand experiences. To anyone that hasn't experienced poverty or inner-city life, your book smarts might actually sound reasonable. Anyone that sees the way things actually work in the real world knows that you're full of crap.

Case in point, who's the "typical" poor person? Are your numbers based on the mean or the median? For that matter, where the hell are they coming from? When you say that 20% to 50% of the people living below the poverty line climb above it in any given year, how do you reconcile that with US Census Bureau data which states poverty is on the rise? From 2002 to 2003 (the latest years I can find data for), the official poverty rate went from 12.1% to 12.5%, a jump of 1.3 million people.

But that's all academic really. That seems to be your forté, but in the end it's not a discussion I'm very interested in having. The real question I have is how you reconcile your facts and figures with the 6 year old kid who's mom is a crack whore or a junkie or whatever. What would you say to the honest and hardworking people who can't afford to live in neighborhoods away from where that stuff is going on? Sorry, your parents didn't make prudent financial decisions, so you have to be afraid to catch a bus at night to get home from your second job. That's the real issue, I believe. We, as a society, must force some people to live like animals as long as we can keep it confined to the other side of town. We do this because there's only a finite amount of resources in the world, and in order for you to get all yours someone else must make do with less. What's going on in New Orleans is an extreme example of the ugly truth that goes on every day in every town.

Floyd Alvis Cooper - asshat fucktard extraordinaire!!

"The poverty line is $9827 for a single adult --that's less than minimum wage, and there are no important or difficult jobs that pay minimum wage to anyone who isn't an illegal immigrant. The poverty line is slightly under $19300 for a family of four. That's $9.25 an hour, assuming a single wage earner. The nation-wide average hourly wage for a full-time worker at Wal-Mart is $9.98.

So spare me that "backbone of the country" foolishness. The backbone of the country is the middle class."

If you think that a $10,000 poverty line is what seperates the middle class from the working poor, then we're not even on the same page. You've never lived in poverty. Minimimum wage earners do not the middle class make.

My friend T has a higher than minimum wage job, and finished high school. You don't understand what it is to be poor, if you assume your numbers mean anything.

Middle class: "A net worth- what a person's total material assets are worth, minus their debt. Most economists define "middle class" citizens as those with net worths of between $25,000 (low-middle class) to $250,000."

We're not even talking earnings of $25,000/year. We're talking NET WORTH here. Damn: by these numbers, my $60,000/year earning mom was NOT MIDDLE CLASS until a few years ago, because of the $60,000 in Student Loan Debt that she finally paid off. So your poverty line is irrelevant to whether or not someone is middle class.

In terms of my "friends making foolish decisions" - the fact that my 3 year old gets read to two or three times a day has established a culture of reading: if *he* chooses not to read at the age of 10, I've already given him middle class culture. So it's not really his "decision" at all. T was involved in caring for her grandfather and her kid sister and the other kids of the neighbourhood; she was learning the other basic survival skills; she was not being foolish because she was doing what was best adaptive to her given situation.

You're making a flimsy argument to equate poverty line with middle class. Since this started out as a discussion of New Orleans, let me burst your bubble: many of the poor and stranded in N.0. were and are above the "poverty line" - that does not in any way mean they'd have the resources to get a bus ticket (even if busses were available). They're poor. Working poor exist and are the backbone of your country. The more you crap on the poor, the more you strip away the pride of the families who used to be able to hold their heads up that they were doing their best to make a life for their kids; you contribute to the desperation of the poor by accusing all those who don't have net worths of $25,000 or more of being malingering, lazy, and foolish: you send the message that their hard goddamn work counts for nothing.

It appears as though Takeo and more than a few others have taken the elitist Dan and his supporters to task, I would like to chime in with my own $0.02:

Poverty, Middle Classness, and Race are all equally interesting and stimulating to debate. "But what we have here...", forgive the oft-quoted phrase "...is a failure to communicate". The people of NOLA didn't quite get the message to leave because the message was cloudy. Yes, category 5 might have perked up a few ears, but there were no government run evacs going on, no mass exodus a la 'Day After Tomorrow'. It was very much a 'you might want to bring an umbrella' blase sort of deal...

Oh, and to interject with only a mite of Bush bashing for old times sake...more people died in NOLA than at the WTC & Pentagon. Forget race wars...WAR ON NATURE! Oh...that's right. We didn't sign Kyoto.

God, so much entertainment here -- I wouldn't know where to begin. Proof, if any were needed, that we really are going to hell fast; the moral level here (I got mine, fuck everyone else) is IDENTICAL to that of the looters -- so funny therefore to hear y'all LOOKING DOWN on them. They're just your own mirror image. Not a whit of difference between you.

But the best of all: Hey, Able Danger! Good to see someone so forthright, so articulate, so willing to say what everyone else just THINKS. Good on ya.

And I gotta say -- hot damn, boy, you're right! We DO own it all!

Yeh, I admit it, it's true, ya got us -- dead to rights. The whole Protocols of the Elders and all -- the banks, the media, the gov't -- all US, the Chosen People. We DO own and control it all. How very perceptive of you to catch on.

But, hey -- thanks for doing YOUR part in our Big Plan, too! Yeh, helping keep the white trash and all those people of color at each others' throats, stirring up RaHoWa, instead of working against your common enemy... us.

Doing a great job, you are.

We'll try to remember to send you your check at the end of the quarter.

Thanks again, little brother.

Silly twisted PERVERTED ANTI AMERICAN TRAITOR,

The self declared "CHOSEN PEOPLE" worship LUCIFER. Per typical you missed the most important point in my post:

#11 ALL PEOPLE ARE EQUAL -- do not forget this. This even includes silly twisty PERVERTED shills like you.

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