Asymmetrical Information

Good news and not surprising. 10K seemed too pat. Of course, initial estimates after the towers fell on 9/11 were 20-30k. But then again, the tsunami estimates early on....

My guess (hope) is very low 4 figures - 1-2K.

I would hope they were saying 10,000 to make everybody feel better when there was a far less.

I can imagine the authorities were under a great deal of pressure to say a number. People desperately need to know numbers.

Turn the TV off.

The other whisper of possible good news to emerge from this tragedy is the N.O. police saying that they have not substantiated any of the rumors of rapes in the Superdome.

I don't like the order given by the Administration regarding cameras during recovery operations.

>>>"Source: Reuters, September 7, 2005
"This is about managing images and not public taste or human dignity," said the director of the Project for Excellence in Journalism, after the U.S. Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) refused to include reporters and photographers on post-Hurricane Katrina rescue missions and asked that "no photographs of the deceased be made by the media." FEMA officials said their policy was due to limited space on rescue boats and a desire to treat hurricane victims with "the utmost respect." Some media organizations likened FEMA's move to "the Bush administration's ban on images of flag-draped U.S. military coffins returning from the Iraq war."

http://www.prwatch.org/node/3972

Hell, if it WASN'T for the access that cameras and the media had during last week's fiasco, we probably wouldn't have known about the crisis at the Convention Center and Super Dome until far later than we actually did. And if the ban stays in place, I have no faith in this Administration that we'll learn the true scope of the death toll.

--Cobra

Cobra -

I share your thoughts, but I'm under the impression the ban is already being/has been lifted.

http://tinyurl.com/bvh56

Why should FEMA transport reporters around? Can't they get their own boats or helicopters? I'm willing for tax dollars to pay for rescue and recovery, but I'm not about to happily subsidize the media.

“Hell, if it WASN'T for the access that cameras and the media had during last week's fiasco, we probably wouldn't have known about the crisis at the Convention Center and Super Dome until far later than we actually did. “

What planet do you live on? The Bush administration has every reason to make sure all of America is well aware of “the crisis at the Convention Center and Super Dome.” After all, these horror stories are almost solely the fault of the Democrats. This is their bastard baby and they will have to live with it. Governor Blanco’s office refused to allow the Red Cross and the Salvation Army from providing the victims food and other emergency items. The liberal dominated MSM can hide this scandal for only so long. The truth is starting to get out.

Jane,

Just logged onto the LakeProvidence site. Was about to recommend to friends looking for a place to give, instead of anniversary gifts, but rather disconcerted about the fact that my comment on the site was changed? Kinda makes me nervous. Can you email me about this?

Thanks.

Dina

Cobra

No problem with a cover-up. We'll just get The Lancet to count the dead. There will be a 90% probability that there will be between 50 and 100,000 deaths. So just round up and call it 100k.

Works like a charm.

Good news for whom - the media - expect the story to disappear in a heartbeat!

If anyone is hiding the bodies, it'll be the alligators.

Sorry, folks, we're not going to get a solid count here.

David Thomson writes:

>>>"What planet do you live on? The Bush administration has every reason to make sure all of America is well aware of “the crisis at the Convention Center and Super Dome.” After all, these horror stories are almost solely the fault of the Democrats. This is their bastard baby and they will have to live with it. Governor Blanco’s office refused to allow the Red Cross and the Salvation Army from providing the victims food and other emergency items. The liberal dominated MSM can hide this scandal for only so long. The truth is starting to get out."

David, I live on Earth...not Planet Rove, or Foxnewsworld. If you would like me to post the Timeline for Katrina in here, including the non-edited official requests for Federal Aid by Louisiana Governor Blanco, that specifically included the greater New Orleans metro area, THREE DAYS BEFORE landfall...

>>>">>>"Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR § 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina."...
...">>>"Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster."

http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976

...and the reply by FEMA on Presidential Stationary that EXCLUDED all the Parishes that make up Greater New Orleans on August 27th, go ahead and ask.

I begging you to. You see, why would I rely on mainstream media for information, when it's freely available on the official websites of the the State Government of Louisiana, and the White House?
Oh hell, I'll just post the thing and you and all the Rove-ragers can read what your Federal Government's response was in writing with no filter, pundits and editing.

>>>For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
August 27, 2005
Statement on Federal Emergency Assistance for Louisiana

The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.
The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.

Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding.

Representing FEMA, Michael D. Brown, Under Secretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response, Department of Homeland Security, named William Lokey as the Federal Coordinating Officer for Federal recovery operations in the affected area.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: FEMA (202) 646-4600.
# # #
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

READ IT AGAIN.

"The President's action AUTHORIZES
the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to COORDINATE ALL disaster relief efforts..."
"Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency."

And now, just FYI...here is what is downright terrifying.

>>>">>>“The New Orleans Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA), the 39th largest in the United States, includes the Louisiana parishes of Orleans (contiguous with the city of New Orleans), Jefferson, Plaquemines, St. Bernard, St. Charles, St. John the Baptist, and St. Tammany.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans

Try to find ANY of these Parishes in the official Federal Emergency announcement.

There are only two conclusions that can be made from this Press Release.

1. Either the President’s FEMA and Homeland Security Staff is so woefully ignorant of geography that they would FORGET to include SEVEN of the most populated parishes comprising a WORLD FAMOUS CITY in their Louisiana Federal Emergency Assistance statement; which also brands President Bush, whose name is prominently at the top of the memo with the Great Seal, as completely clueless, and oblivious to whatever edicts or statements he authorizes...

OR--

2. It was done intentionally.

You tell me which conclusion you reach, David.

-Cobra

“ You tell me which conclusion you reach, David.”

I am reaching the conclusion that you are abysmally ignorant. We do not live in a dictatorship. FEMA is the third responder---and the United States Constitution gives Governor Kathleen Blanco the right to call the shots. She had the legal right to forbid allowing the Red Cross and Salvation Army to assist the victims at the Silverdome. End of story.

It is the responsibility of the local authorities to devise and carry out their plan to rescue the endangered citizens. I firmly believe in the principle of subsidiarity. There is no way that a distant entity like the federal government will ever comprehend the situation of the locals as clearly as they will themselves. FEMA is essentially a backup organization, and inherently can never effectively be more than that.

David,

Maybe you didn't read the PRESIDENT'S PRESS RELEASE. What part of...

>>>"The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

...don't you understand?

Are you working under some impression that American citizens, local, and state officials are NOT under the authority of the President of the United States? That President is NOT the final word? That the President is NOT the top official in the chain of command? Where are you getting this from? Do you have a confusion on DATES? Do you not realize that the documents I linked you with all were released BEFORE the landfall of Hurricane Katrina?

Where do you get statements like:

>>>"FEMA is the third responder---and the United States Constitution gives Governor Kathleen Blanco the right to call the shots. She had the legal right to forbid allowing the Red Cross and Salvation Army to assist the victims at the Silverdome. End of story"

Please reference the Constitution for exactly where this is explained? Maybe you didn't read HER OFFICIAL AND SPECIFIC REQUEST FOR FEDERAL AID.

>>>"...">>>"Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster."

http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976

She was REQUESTING FEDERAL HELP, David. She requested it BEFORE LANDFALL. You're not reading, are you?

I'll leave you alone about the "Silverdome" (Detroit), but the Superdome? Hello? Are you ill? Governor Blanco didn't prevent the Red Cross from going in.

>>>"FEMA responsible for coordinating Red Cross efforts as well as emergency disaster relief

In touting Evans's assertion that state officials blocked the Red Cross from New Orleans to avoid encouraging people to stay or return, Fox News and others have omitted another key fact: It was the federal government that was primarily responsible for coordinating operations, including the activities of the Red Cross. Presumably, if FEMA had deemed it necessary for the Red Cross to enter New Orleans, the agency could have intervened with state authorities at any time. Both the federal Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) December 2004 National Response Plan (NRP) and the Red Cross' charter clearly place the Red Cross under the purview of FEMA. Further, the response plan stipulates that federal agencies should strive for full coordination with state officials but not allow such coordination to "impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources."

According to the federal charter of the American Red Cross, the organization has "the legal status of 'a federal instrumentality' " with "responsibilities delegated to it by the Federal government." Listed among these responsibilities is "to maintain a system of domestic and international disaster relief, including mandated responsibilities under the Federal Response Plan coordinated by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)."

The NRP represents the most recently approved "federal response plan." It confirms that the Red Cross falls under the purview of the federal government:

This plan is applicable to all Federal departments and agencies that may be requested to provide assistance or conduct operations in the context of actual or potential Incidents of National Significance. This includes the American Red Cross, which functions as an Emergency Support Function (ESF) primary organization in coordinating the use of mass care resources in a Presidentially declared disaster or emergency.

[...]

Departments and agencies at all levels of government and certain NGOs, such as the American Red Cross, may be required to deploy to Incidents of National Significance on short notice to provide timely and effective mutual aid and/or intergovernmental assistance.

But as journalist Joshua Micah Marshall noted in a timeline on his Talking Points Memo blog, it wasn't until Wednesday, August 31, two days after the hurricane struck, that DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff declared Katrina an 'Incident of National Significance,' "triggering for the first time a coordinated federal response to states and localities overwhelmed by disaster," according to the Associated Press.

The NRP establishes the Red Cross as a "primary agency" under the Emergency Support Function (ESF) structure, which consists of 12 "precise components that can best address the requirements" of an "incident of national significance." Specifically, the Red Cross is responsible for the "mass care" element of ESF component No. 6. Mass care services include the "sheltering of victims, organizing feeding operations, providing emergency first aid at designated sites, collecting and providing information on victims to family members, and coordinating bulk distribution of emergency relief items." The NRP designates both DHS and FEMA as the coordinators of ESF No. 6 and stipulates that the Red Cross should be treated as a federal agency in its disaster relief capacity:

For the purposes of the National Response Plan, the American Red Cross functions as an ESF primary organization in coordinating the use of Federal mass care resources in the context of Incidents of National Significance. For the purposes of ESF #6, any reference to Federal departments and agencies with respect to responsibilities and activities in responding to an Incident of National Significance includes the American Red Cross.

Moreover, the NRP directs FEMA to act on its own authority to quickly provide assistance and conduct emergency operations following a major catastrophe, pre-empting state and local authorities if necessary."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509090002

Keep 'em coming, David. Bring some more FOX NEWS/KARL ROVE LIES out here so I can dismiss them hat in hand.

--Cobra

“Keep 'em coming, David. Bring some more FOX NEWS/KARL ROVE LIES out here so I can dismiss them hat in hand.”

You are truly making a total fool of yourself. The vast majority of constitutional scholars would laugh at you. Governor Blanco has the legal right to tell the federal government to go to hell---and that’s essentially what she did. The President of the United States is not a dictator. Should we change our laws and give the elected chief executive more power during such a crisis? That is a debate we probably will be having. Nevertheless, at the current time this is not the case.

I also find it hysterically funny that the radical left is venting its spleen over the fact that President Bush did not act like a dictator. Isn’t he suppose to be another power hungry Adolph Hitler? The dude must be slacking off.

David writes:

>>>"You are truly making a total fool of yourself. The vast majority of constitutional scholars would laugh at you. Governor Blanco has the legal right to tell the federal government to go to hell---and that’s essentially what she did."

I don't know where to start to unscramble these eggs of abject denial of the facts. David, re-read the official request for federal emergency assistance on August 26, 2005.

>>>"...">>>"Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster."

http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976

If your interpretation of that paragraph, is
"Governor Katherine Blanco tells the Federal government to go to hell," then you need a refresher course in cognitive reading and comprehension.

And where do you get this interpretation of the Constitution that says Governors are allowed act in defiance of federal law? Please cite me the Article and Section. I seem to recall ol' George Wallace, and a host of southern Mayors and Governors telling the federal government to "go to hell" when it came to integration of public schools, which was the FEDERAL LAW of the land. The Presidents at the time, whether Eisenhower or Kennedy enforced the federal law, sometimes at the point of a gun.

Keep on trying, though Dave. Your loyalty to Bush is very inspiring. You and Judith Miller may be inline for Medals of Freedom.

--Cobra

David,

Cobra is truly making a fool of himself, especially when he says, "Are you working under some impression that American citizens, local, and state officials are NOT under the authority of the President of the United States? That President is NOT the final word? That the President is NOT the top official in the chain of command? Where are you getting this from?"

I made it a personal policy some time ago to ignore Cobra's rantings, but I just have to answer this one. Where are we getting this from? From the Constitution of the United States and the laws and regulations passed by Congress. We have a Federal government of explicitly enumerated powers, with the remainder of the powers reserved to the States and the people.

“We have a Federal government of explicitly enumerated powers, with the remainder of the powers reserved to the States and the people.”

Exactly. Should President Bush have exerted more pressure on Governor Blanco? Might he have considered getting on his knees and begging her to take action? We can indeed have this debate. But at the end of the day, the president is legally powerless to force the governor to do his bidding. The insurrection clause in the Constitution cannot be used to deal with the incompetence of the top elected official of a state. Being an idiot is not against the law.

David Thompson, the only who is making a fool of himself here is you. Cobra has posted verifyable documents, showing that Blanco asked the federal government for all aid. If you have anything to counter that, lets see it.

The Depeartment of Defense says the states asked for aid on Friday and then increased aid on Saturday before Katrina hit.

When did the governors of the affected states request aid?

http://www.dod.mil/transcripts/2005/tr20050901-3843.html

Q To what extent is this additional assistance you've outlined today a response to a request from the state governors in Louisiana, Mississippi? And if so, can you tell us when specifically you got that request?

GEN. HONORÉ: Yes, sir. The process starts, sir, in this particular event, with a request Friday of last week, as the approximate date for defense coordinating offices to be established in Florida, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. Those were established in those states over Friday and Saturday.

Q Sir, I'm specifically interested in how soon after the hurricane hit and the extent of the damage became known did the governors request additional assistance above and beyond what they had requested before?

GEN. HONORÉ: Sir, that started to happen on Saturday, as the hurricane was approaching,

“The Depeartment of Defense says the states asked for aid on Friday and then increased aid on Saturday before Katrina hit.”

So what? Governor Blanco did indeed request aid from the federal government. Nobody disputes this fact whatsoever. This does not mean, however, that she relinquished her authority. And Blanco is the one responsible for prohibiting the Red Cross and the Salvation Army from helping the victims at the Superdome.

The question to ask, is what Aid did Blanco ask for that she did not recieve, which was both legal and expected of the Feds?

Such as if she asked the President for troops to keep order. Well that breaks Posse Comitatus, so of course the president wouldn't do that.

If she asked for NG, she should resign, as the President only has authority over NG if the Govenor relinquishes control -which she did not- or if attacked by an outside entity.

If she asked for busses, well the Feds aren't gonna provide them. That is not expected.

from the time state of emergency is declared till 72-96 hours after the disaster, the feds provide guarenteed loans and funds. As soon as the disaster hits, they start with search and rescue and medical. -The USS Bataan had set up medical tents and coordinated search and rescue 2 hours after the storm passed.

So the question is, what did Blanco ask for, that she did not recieve?

If your wondering how the Feds would react if this was a terrorist attack, a lot differently. They can then legally ignore Posse Comitatus and the Insurection act. Acts like this also immidietly federalize the NG. -Well the president can probably always nationalize the NG, there is debate about this, however he never does without the govenors approval.

Another question to ask, is what is the bigger priority for the feds? Search and Resuce or getting people at the convention center and Superdome food and water?

Just about any volenteer group in America can provide the latter -and many did try!- but very few groups can coordiante S&R.

J-Deal,

My post was long enough, and so I didn't post the ENTIRE press release from Governor Blanco.

So now I will. Note the SPECIFICITY of her requests.

BATON ROUGE—Today Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco forwarded a letter to President Bush requesting that he declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina. The full text of the letter follows:

August 27, 2005
The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.
Through: Regional Director
FEMA Region VI800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR § 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster.

I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in Enclosure A.

The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the conditions of this emergency:• Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby.• Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby.• Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters.• Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation of the coastal areas.• Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and Rescue Missions.

Mr. President
Page Two
August 27, 2005•

Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Coordinating traffic flow and management of the evacuations routes with local officials and the State of Mississippi. The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this incident:• FEMA ERT-A Team en-route.I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford Act.

I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property.(a) List any reasons State and local government cannot perform or contract for performance, (if applicable). (b) Specify the type of assistance requested.

In accordance with 44 CFR § 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance:

Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work.

Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising from such work;

Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and4. Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local jurisdictional matters.In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety.Pursuant to Sections 502 and 407 of the Stafford Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5192 & 5173, the State agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the United States of America for any claims arising from the removal of debris or wreckage for this disaster. The State agrees that debris removal from public and private property will not occur until the landowner signs an unconditional authorization for the removal of debris.I have designated Mr. Art Jones as the State Coordinating Officer for this request. He will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency in damage assessments and may provide further information or justification on my behalf.

Sincerely,
Kathleen Babineaux Blanco Governor

Enclosure
ENCLOSURE A TO EMERGENCY REQUEST Estimated requirements for other Federal agency programs:• Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.• Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.• Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters. Costs estimated to range from $250,000-$500,000 to support (6) Shelter generator operations. • Louisiana State Police (LSP): Costs to support evacuations – $300,000 for a non-direct landfall.• Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Costs to support evacuations – $200,000 for a non-direct landfall.• Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Costs to support evacuations – $2,000,000 for a non-direct landfall.Totals: $ 9,000,000 Estimated Requirements for assistance under the Stafford Act:Coordination: $0 Technical and advisory assistance: $0 Debris removal: $0 Emergency protective measures: $ 9,000,000Individuals and Households Program (IHP): $0 Distribution of emergency supplies: $0 Other (specify): $0 Totals: $ 9,000,000 Grand Total: $ 9,000,000”

http://www.gov.state.la.us/PressReleasedetail.asp?id=976

Rex, if you need to review some of the NEW REGULATIONS AND ACTS implemented POST 9/11, I invite you to do so. Attacking me, doesn't change the reality on the ground.

--Cobra

We have a Federal government of explicitly enumerated powers, with the remainder of the powers reserved to the States and the people

What you're forgetting is that many on the extreme political fringe, Left and Right alike, take it as an article of faith that the President has blanket authority to send his jackbooted thugs anywhere in the country to do whatever he wishes them to do.

So you're never going to convince Cobra that Bush needed the governor's permission for anything. His type are already firmly convinced that there are no limits on Presidential power. You can't reason people out of beliefs they didn't reason themselves into.

Again, I don't choose to use punditry, or rhetoric. Let's examine the LAW as it stands today.

>>>"The National Response Plan is the Department of Homeland Security's plan to handle terrorist attacks, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency. According to the department's website, "In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation."[1] The emphasis is that Homeland Security will assume "primary responsibilty" which was created to prevent the uncoordinated response of various local, state, and federal in disaster scenarios..."
"...August 30, 2005 Secretary Michael Chertoff evoked the National Response Plan the day after Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast on the morning of August 29, 2005. By so doing, the Secretary assumed the leadership role triggered by the law to bear primary responsibility to manage said crisis."

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Response_Plan"

Dan, I didn't make up the National Response Plan for the Department of Homeland Security. You can download it for yourself at the Homeland Security website, though it's about 114 pages long. It's Amazing...truly this reaction. This blog was waving the flag about Terri Schaivo, where Bush stopped his vacation, flew across the country in the dead of night to sign an unconstitutional bill designed to affect ONE PERSON, against the official court rulings of the State of Florida.

Here, we have a situation in Louisiana where the Governor ASKED for federal help through the correct protocols,just as Mississippi and Alabama did, yet she's supposed to take the blame for ineptitude on the part of a FEMA team that had no disaster experience when they were hired? Or the fact that Bush's emergency declaration failed to include the SEVEN parishes that make up Greater New Orleans?

You're better than this, Dan.

--Cobra

Whoa, let's hold up for a moment here. FEMA is a management and coordinating agency; not a providing agency. And FEMA is actually a skeleton agency which is augmented by personnel from other government agencies when activated for a crisis. All services that people think are provided by FEMA are actually provided by persons and/or companies that FEMA contracts with to provide those services.

All that takes time. Compare the response of FEMA to Katrina to the FEMA response to the Florida hurricanes last year, and I think you will find that the response times are very similar. Another interesting comparison is the state of cleanup/relief in Louisiana with Mississippi. Mississippi is far ahead, and don't forget that FEMA is dealing with that, too. Why is that?

A better question to be debating is whether FEMA or any national agency can be structured to respond quickly without having lots and lots of people on its payroll standing around with nothing to do until there is a crisis. Unfortunately, I don't think so. I happen to think that local and state governments are better equipped for the initial response (up to 3+ days) while the feds are mobilizing and getting their act moving. I also believe that that is the understanding behind the emergency plans currently in effect.

Have you ever set up a command post? Or moved one from point A to point B? I helped do that all the time in the military (for all the communications), and even a highly trained, well practiced, already constituted force, executing a well rehearsed and well coordinated plan takes a significant amount of time to set up the command post for a battalion, on the order of several hours if everything goes well. Setting up for a regiment takes a lot longer, and setting up for a division takes the better part of a day, and frequently longer.

Setting up the command post for a FEMA site is an extremely complex undertaking, especially why you can't rely on radio, electric power, land lines, cell phones, etc. It takes time to move a prepositioned generator and sufficient fuel to the command site. What if the ideal command sites are all under water? Well, you have to go to an alternative site. How do you get there? Drive. What if all the roads and bridges are out? Fly, if you can find an airport, but airpoane loads are a VERY slow way to move people and equipment. In short, it's not as simple as people believe it to be.

“The Depeartment of Defense says the states asked for aid on Friday and then increased aid on Saturday before Katrina hit.”

So what? Governor Blanco did indeed request aid from the federal government. Nobody disputes this fact whatsoever.

Okay, I see. That's your admission that you were completely wrong when you wrote: "Governor Blanco has the legal right to tell the federal government to go to hell---and that’s essentially what she did."

Your admission of error is noted.

Dan writes:

So you're never going to convince Cobra that Bush needed the governor's permission for anything.

Dan, you need to convince the Northern Command.

Sean Kelly of the US Northern Command told BBC this:

"NorthCom started planning before the storm even hit. We were ready for the storm when it hit Florida because, as you remember, it crossed the bottom part of Florida, and then we were plaining, you know, once it was pointed towards the Gulf Coast. So what we did was we activated what we call defense coordinating officers to work with the state to say okay, what do you think you'll need, and we set up staging bases that could be started. We had the USS Baton sailing almost behind the hurricane so that after the hurricane made landfall it's search and rescue helicopters would be available almost immediately. So we had things ready. The only caveat is, we have to wait until the President authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can't just act in this fashion, we have to wait for the President to give us permission."

“The only caveat is, we have to wait until the President authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can't just act in this fashion, we have to wait for the President to give us permission."

Yup, that’s very accurate. The military must wait until the President gives the order to proceed. However, the governor of a state has the right to tell the national chief executive to cool their heels. The final authority was in the hands of Governor Blanco. Both President Bush and the military could do nothing until Louisiana's chief executive gave her approval.

Dan, you need to convince the Northern Command.

Nothing in the passage you've quoted contradicts anything I've said. The military is constrained to follow Bush's command. Bush himself is constrained to obey the law and the Constitution. The law says that Blanco's permission was needed, and that permission was not forthcoming at the time when it would have done the most good.

"Another interesting comparison is the state of cleanup/relief in Louisiana with Mississippi. Mississippi is far ahead, and don't forget that FEMA is dealing with that, too. Why is that?" Because Mississippi didn't build a major city below sea level.

Cobra and his several opponents have been talking past each other. This dialogue has been repeated several times: "The President doesn't have the power until the Governor asks for help." "The Governor did ask for help on the 26th" (with a source copied at length into the post). Maybe Cobra's posts have been so long the other's haven't read them... Please, people, either address that point directly, or move on to another point.

I think the real issue is that what was really required is neither the FEMA's job nor possible for FEMA to accomplish:

1. New Orleans needed to be evacuated.
(a) FEMA doesn't have busses. NOLA did - and left hundreds of them underwater. Directing and conducting the evacuation is a local job. They botched it.
(b) The evacuation was necessary because they built their city below sea level. That's not a federal problem anymore than the huge snowfall we get around here is a federal problem. The feds don't keep snowplows and crews on standby to help Otsego County dig out from under a snowstorm. I pay county taxes for that; there's no reason I should also pay federal taxes to keep federal personnel or equipment ready to help New Orleans with their evacuation.

2. After the storm hit, NOLA needed police to stop looting, maintain order in the Superdome, etc. Local police are expected to carry this load for a few days, because it takes time to organize and move in qualified people from elsewhere. Apparently, a third of their police ran away. Police weren't preventing looting, they were joining in. This is a local, not a federal problem - and it looks to me like corrupt policemen were just copying the corrupt city and state politicians.

3. The National Guard is the second line, after the local police - but this isn't their main job. A quarter of them were off doing their main job, which is fighting a war that requires more manpower than the full-time military forces can provide. So I am left with these questions: What about the other 3/4 of the Guard? Did Blanco just forget to order them in, in between her crying jags? If 3/4 wasn't sufficient, why would 4/4 have been? And what would happen if we were in a bigger war and the entire Guard was deployed?

Markm writes:

"1. New Orleans needed to be evacuated.
(a) FEMA doesn't have busses. NOLA did - and left hundreds of them underwater. Directing and conducting the evacuation is a local job. They botched it."

Actually, to be completely honest, the City of New Orleans followed their disaster plan, and over 80% of the city was evacuated, and public buses were dispatched throughout the city to bring those who didn't evacuate to the shelters of last resort, primarily the Superdome.

From the official STATE OF LOUISIANA
EMERGENCY OPERATIONS PLAN
SUPPLEMENT 1A:

>>>"2. Evacuation will be carried out in three phases, as follows:
a. Precautionary / Voluntary:
This phase will concentrate on people who are most vulnerable to
a hurricane and the effects of both water and wind. It is directed
at offshore workers, persons on coastal islands or in wetlands
areas and persons aboard boats. No special traffic control,
transportation, or sheltering measures will be taken.
b. Recommended Evacuation:
This phase is enacted when a storm has a high probability of
causing a significant threat to people living in the areas at risk.
Parish and State government authorities will recommend that
persons at risk evacuate. The parishes will designate staging
areas for persons needing transportation, if necessary.
c. Mandatory:
This is the final, most serious phase of evacuation. Authorities
will put maximum emphasis on encouraging evacuation and
limiting ingress. Designated State evacuation routes maybe
augmented by turning additional lanes into one-way outbound
traffic and the State Police with Local law enforcement assistance
will assume responsibility for traffic control on those routes. As
the storm gets close to the Southeast Region, evacuation routes
will be closed and the people remaining will be directed to last
resort refuges."

>>>3. Mandatory Evacuation:
a. Risk Area Parishes:
1. Coordinate evacuation orders with State and other risk
parishes.
2. Instruct persons living in designated evacuation zones to
leave.
3. Impose traffic control to funnel persons to designated
evacuation routes.
4. Designate staging areas and other facilities as last resort
refuges. People at these locations who cannot be
evacuated in time to avoid the storm will remain and take
refuge in the designated buildings.
5. Assist persons with mobility limitations to find last resort
refuge. Mobilize all transportation resources and request
assistance from the state as needed.
6. Continue to update EAS and news media with evacuation
information at two-hour intervals."

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf

I've been searching the web constantly looking for evacuation plans from major US cities where the entire populations are moved outside of the city limits, hundreds of miles away by public transportation. New York City, where 75% of the population does NOT own cars certainly doesn't have that kind of plan, yet they're on the FEMA list as the most likely target of a terrorist attack. Miami's website offers this to it's citizens:

>>>"Bus Pickup Points

Any of the following Miami-Dade Transit Agency Bus Pick-ups points will be activated only for hurricane evacuations. Residents should listen to the media or call the Team Metro Hotline at (305) 468-5900 TDD (305) 468-5402 to find out when the buses will transport people from the pick-up points to Red Cross Evacuation Centers. Buses that will transport people for hurricane evacuations will have a special notice on the front of the bus where the route information is displayed."
http://www.co.miami-dade.fl.us/oem/eva-bus_pickups.asp

But the site also reads here:

>>>You should try to evacuate to the home of a friend or family member who lives outside of the Evacuation Zones. Red Cross Evacuation Centers should be used as a last resort.

Not every site will open for every evacuation!"
http://www.co.miami-dade.fl.us/oem/sheltering_redcross_centers.asp

So they don't send people hundreds of miles away, but to local shelters in town? Hmmmm...
Sounds like New Orleans to me. And my bet is that most cities with populations over a million are very similiar in their disaster planning.

I have never indicated on this or any other blog that the Mayor of New Orleans, or the Governor were perfect in this affair, and did everything correctly. If you recall, there were evacuation issues and communications failures during 9/11 in the WTC, yet nobody seems to want to criticize the officials for that, particularly Giuliani.

>>>"In July 2001, Mayor Giuliani updated a directive titled "Direction and Control of Emergencies in the City of New York." Its purpose was to eliminate "potential conflict among responding agencies which may have areas of overlapping expertise and responsibility." The directive sought to accomplish this objective by designating, for different types of emergencies, an appropriate agency as "Incident Commander." This Incident Commander would be "responsible for the management of the City's response to the emergency," while the OEM was "designated the 'On Scene Interagency Coordinator.'"29

Nevertheless, the FDNY and NYPD each considered itself operationally autonomous. As of September 11, they were not prepared to comprehensively coordinate their efforts in responding to a major incident. The OEM had not overcome this problem."
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch9.htm

>>>"The 911 operators and FDNY dispatchers had no information about either the location or the magnitude of the impact zone and were therefore unable to provide information as fundamental as whether callers were above or below the fire. Because the operators were not informed of NYPD Aviation's determination of the impossibility of rooftop rescues from the Twin Towers on that day, they could not knowledgeably answer when callers asked whether to go up or down. In most instances, therefore, the operators and the FDNY dispatchers relied on standard operating procedures for high-rise fires-that civilians should stay low, remain where they are, and wait for emergency personnel to reach them. This advice was given to callers from the North Tower for locations both above and below the impact zone. Fire chiefs told us that the evacuation of tens of thousands of people from skyscrapers can create many new problems, especially for individuals who are disabled or in poor health. Many of the injuries after the 1993 bombing occurred during the evacuation.37

Although the guidance to stay in place may seem understandable in cases of conventional high-rise fires, FDNY chiefs in the North Tower lobby determined at once that all building occupants should attempt to evacuate immediately. By 8:57, FDNY chiefs had instructed the PAPD and building personnel to evacuate the South Tower as well, because of the magnitude of the damage caused by the first plane's impact.38

These critical decisions were not conveyed to 911 operators or to FDNY dispatchers. Departing from protocol, a number of operators told callers that they could break windows, and several operators advised callers to evacuate if they could.39 Civilians who called the Port Authority police desk located at 5 WTC were advised to leave if they could.40

Most civilians who were not obstructed from proceeding began evacuating without waiting for instructions over the intercom system. Some remained to wait for help, as advised by 911 operators. Others simply continued to work or delayed to collect personal items, but in many cases were urged to leave by others. Some Port Authority civilian employees remained on various upper floors to help civilians who were trapped and to assist in the evacuation.4"

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch9.htm

This is posted in no way to absolve local officials in New Orleans or the State of Lousiana of culpability in some of things that went wrong with Katrina. But the facts often get in the way of political agendas and urban legends, so it's best to go to official documents and investigation findings for the final say, and then make judgements where applicable.

Moreover, there is something to be said about this in the end. Preparing for a major hurricane and attending to the needs of more than a MILLION DISPLACED PEOPLE, is far beyond the capabillities of any ONE MAYOR, and any ONE STATE GOVERNOR. The answer for preparation for the NEXT calamnity certainly can't be tax cuts and the further reduction of the size of government. Either we care about all of our citizens, even the impoverished, or we have truly collapsed into a feudal system of serfs and lords.

--Cobra

Cobra --\The proof is in the pudding--
All the stuff that was supposed to be handled by the State and local authorities in NO was botched.
Once the FEMA people and their minions were on the scene (within their 72 to 96 hour window) things on the ground improved rapidly. Why are you complaining that FEMA did not do its job?
Could it be that you complain too loudly to cover up the "No Clothes" democrats. The democrat political machine in LA, who anyone with half a brain can see screwed the pooch long before Katrina hit and who failed spectacularly in the wake of Katrina to follow even their own plan. You can try to pin this failure of the democrat leaders on GWB and FEMA but it just won't fly.

That is why the democrat "leaders" in congress are now saying that they won't let any of their members sit on the proposed bi_partisan congressional investigation committee. They know where the facts will lead and you can be sure that they don't want to go there.

thedaddy

P.S. I would like to know how many people were rescued or even just given water and food by the hordes of "Journalists" rolling tape of the suffering?

Thedaddy,

You still don't get it, do you? Why don't you turn off Fox News, and re-read the OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS in the paper trail that delegates responsibility for coordinating relief efforts.

After re-reading those documents, if you STILL come to the conclusion that it's ONE MAYOR and ONE GOVERNOR's fault for a FOUR STATE CATASTROPHE RESPONSE, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like you to place a bid on.

--Cobra

Michigander, the left-wing blogs, by and large, can't manage to report this, probably thanks to the BBC article's failure to respond to clarification, but NORTHCOM's Sean Kelly himself responded to Kevin Drum, no organ of the GOP, with the fact that the order to help, the authorization to help, had already been given:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_09/007054.php (scroll down to the updates)

The reason USS Bataan couldn't respond immediately was because the hurricane and the storms it left behind were still creating hazards for helicopter crews. Her helicopters were engaged in SAR by Tuesday night.

"Thus we had permission to operate as soon as it was possible." -Cdr. Sean Kelly, NORTHCOM

“That is why the democrat "leaders" in congress are now saying that they won't let any of their members sit on the proposed bi_partisan congressional investigation committee. They know where the facts will lead and you can be sure that they don't want to go there.”

How does that old saw go? Be careful what you wish for---you just might get it! The Democrats see the handwriting on the wall and are now shying away from an investigation.

On 11 september at the begin they told about 50.000... they have some problems wtih math. They also told about a war of one year in Iraq and that the prize of oil have been the sam till 2020.

Obviously most of the bodies were fed to Yog Sothoth. Come on, people, wake up to reality.

LAN3 writes

Michigander, the left-wing blogs, by and large, can't manage to report this, probably thanks to the BBC article's failure to respond to clarification, but NORTHCOM's Sean Kelly himself responded to Kevin Drum, no organ of the GOP, with the fact that the order to help, the authorization to help, had already been given.

Thanks for that psot.

It does reinforce my point that the military could operate in Louisiana immediately, without any further action by Blanco.

It's relative to the orginal estimate.

Had they predicted hundreds but found thousands of corpses, it would be viewed as a travesty.

But they didn't.

They predicted tens of thousands and found thousands. Geeze. What a relief!

http://www.hillarysvillage.com

Actually, nobodies at fault. Everyone did the best they could.

The most authoritative timeline is here http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/09/04/katrina-response-timeline/

I really can't see expecting much more out of anyone involved. Do you really believe someone would let this happen if they could prevent it?

Consder the 1927 flood of New Orleans, that forever changed America and led to Herbert Hoover as president. It was a lot worse than this one. The government didn't intervene, and Coolidge didn't even care.

It is silly to expect the government to be G*D, a reasonable effort is all thats required. I can't see where anybody failed in that regard, except for those police that quit rather than face out the storm.

Randy Gordon (randyjg2(at)yahoo.com)

Cobra:

I think you're absolutely right that one mayor and one governor could not have handled, and should not be considered responsible for, a four-state natural disaster. But the one mayor is indeed the executive of his city, and a big piece of the buck stops there as far as his city is concerned; the one governor is indeed the executive of her State, and a big piece of the buck stops there as far as her State is concerned. Regardless of the unfairness of it, they'll always be subject to comparisons with Giuliani's response to 9/11, and they'll always be seen to have been less decisive, less effective, and more whiny by far. Nothing's going to change that.

So the three questions that ISTM really have to be answered now are, in priority order, 1. What do local entities take away from the New Orleans experience in re their own disaster planning, noting especially the way the worst of the situation fell most heavily on those least able to adjust to it? 2. How can FEMA improve its response time and, even more immportantly since response time is going to have a finite lower limit, chain-of-command/communication issues? and 3. Was there actionable negligence in this case, and if so, by whom?

Calls for Bush's impeachment are just silly. As usual.

Cobra: Nice job of research. Very thorough, very clear. You seem to be way better informed in this area than anyone else posting here--are you experienced with disaster relief efforts?

Moreover, refuting black propaganda with verifyable facts is always refreshing, although often tedious and thankless for the diligent researcher. Glad there are those still willing to make the effort.

REX: Thanks for pointing out the formidable challenges -- based on your own experience -- of setting up a command center for a regiment, must less a division. Add to that foul weather, a blown phone system, clogged roads, choppy waters, wrecked docks and the absence of electricity.
Where I don't quite follow you chain of thought is in your implication that while these challenges make it unreasonable to hold the Feds responsible for the breakdown in command and control, it is perfectly reasonable to hold the Democratic state and city officials responsible.

I'm a great subscriber to the "cock-up" theory of history, and there seems to be plenty of scope for finding cock-ups in the post-flood N.O. fiasco. Failing to evacuate the last chunk of the population does not--in my view--fall into that category. I believe it was simply not possible given the circumstances that prevailed on the ground. However, what stands out as a real cock-up was the failure to take proper care of the people holed up in the Superdome and the Convention Center.

Apparently, state and local officials asked the Red Cross not to enter the city on Sept. 2 because of the chaos and lawlessness. A parallel concern, apparently, was that setting up food and water distribution on a large scale in the arenas would inhibit the effort to evacuate those locales. The Red Cross seems to have accpted and agreed with this policy choice. The evacuation effort, of course, proved chimerical--the city buses were largely unusable, the drivers unavailable, etc.

Six days later, when the scope of the cock-up became clearer--first no food and water and then no buses--it then became CYA time. The Red Cross then retroactively shifted its position to say that they were blocked by the Louisiana dept of homeland security and the national guard and had to watch helplessly although they had been ready to help all along. See http://mediamatters.org/items/200509090002

I think Cobra's point was that if the Red Cross and FEMA had felt strongly that immediate entry into the city was essential, they had ample authority to act regardless of what the locals may have desired. The fact that they acquiesced in what, in retrospect, was an exceedingly poor state-local rescue plan means that they must share in the responsibility.

It's been slightly amusing to see Pres. Bush, his father, Dick Cheney, Mr. Brown of FEMA et al, say, "We shouldn't play the blame game," (in those exact words, as though scripted) and then have their supporters do exactly that -- pointing the finger at the locals in general and Gov. Blanco in particular. What is a lot less amusing is to realize how ineptitude at all levels magnified human suffering. Still, that's what the cock-up theory teaches: Even when everyone is acting for the good, even when they are on the same side, their weaknesses and misunderstandings
combine to determine history's outcomes.

I don't recall addressing the shortcomings of the state and local officials except to point out that they are much better equipped for the initial response than are the feds. Many of the same factors that incapacitated the feds incapacitated the state and local officials, yet the blame game (which was started by the local and state officials in a very partisan fashion, thus sparking the response by Bush's supporters, but not by Bush yet) seems to be directed at FEMA, and by implication, Bush.

May I point out that the command post now used by FEMA, as well as by the local emergency/disaster officials is the USS Iwo Jima? When the Iwo pulled into port, the FEMA CP was on the dock. I refer interested readers to Hugh Hewitt's web site (www.hughhewitt.com)for some amusing letters from the CO of the Iwo which also help to put a lot of this in perspective.

I don't know what happened to the state officials' CP's (command posts), but the locals' CP's were obviously overwhelmed by flood water, lack of potable water, lack of electricity, lack of communications (cell and telephone), lack of transportation/mobility, etc. The same factors that the locals could not overcome to impress a bunch of busses into service (locating and calling drivers, having drivers physically show up at various locations, having someone at those locations who could organize and brief the drivers as to what to do, etc.) are all factors that FEMA had to deal with in getting their promised busses into NO, but note the reaction of the governor--Why aren't they here yet? I truly believe that the governor of LA and the mayor of NO have no clue as to how much work, coordination, and time are involved in putting together a relief effort from scratch. But they are learning.

Publius stated: "I think Cobra's point was that if the Red Cross and FEMA had felt strongly that immediate entry into the city was essential, they had ample authority to act regardless of what the locals may have desired."

This highlights the core problem; the critics of the Bush administration are ignoring 200+ years of law and precedent in order to shift the blame, not just to the federal level, but to President Bush himself.

At the same time, those on the opposite side are hiding behind the rule of law. There is little genuine debate that the federal government lacked the authority to act unilaterally. But does that mean they shouldn't have anyway?

To put it another way, from a purely political perspective, wouldn't Bush have been better off had he simply ordered the 82nd Airborne into New Orleans on Wednesday afternoon AFTER the situation was clear (and that the local officials and FEMA had failed?) I'd even argue that it would have politically brilliant. Even if technically illegal, only fools would have done more than throw verbal darts.

Speaking as a former military man, the idea of the Pres unilaterally ordering active-duty troops into a domestic area in violation of the law just horrifies me. I don't care if the Pres is someone who I actually trust (like GWB) or someone who I can't trust one iota (like WJC)--the idea of violating the principle of civilian control of the military is horrific.

"If she asked for NG, she should resign, as the President only has authority over NG if the Govenor relinquishes control -which she did not- or if attacked by an outside entity."

Not true. The federal government can take over the running of the NG, see for example, when the feds took over the Alabama NG when George Wallace wanted to use it to prevent black children from attending school

Rex,
If Bush were to do that, he would not exactly be violating the principle of civilian control over the military. He would still be the one giving the orders. Wouldn't he be violating something like Posse Comitatus, though?

Maybe all the dead bodies got tired of waiting for George Bush to come get them and just decided to walk themselves out of town.

Rex is being overdramatic. Nobody would have been horrified. Quite the contrary. The horror was that an imbecile was in charge of the state of Lousiana.

I'm also not convinced unilaterally acting would violate any law whatsoever. Yes, there is the Posse Comitatus act, but it a) is an act of congress that can be ammended and b) it, and other parts of federal law, contains exceptions. Besides, one could easily just have national guard troops do the actual policing. My feeling is that the very presence of the 82nd airborne would have prevented many of the problems reported (note that last word.) At the very least, they could have evacuated the Superdome and Convention Center.

Still, the president had a plethora of additional legal options at his disposal including asking Congress for the emergency authority to act and of flying to Baton Rouge immediately to deal with the governor in person.

My point is that there is a very valid criticism of President Bush in that he didn't act like a president, regardless of what the other leaders were or weren't doing.

I hasten to also point out that no matter what Bush did, it would only have mitigated the problems New Orleans was facing, not solved them nor prevented them in the first place. (But that mitigation would have made a world of difference to the people involved and, I daresay, to the perception of him being a capable leader.)

Cobra: Nice job of research. Very thorough, very clear. You seem to be way better informed in this area than anyone else posting here

Cobra is no doubt basking in the glow of those words, but in looking over the thread I am seeing a fight focused more over interpretations than the actual facts -- to wit, we know what the basic facts were; now how can we spin them to target whichvever politicians we liked the least?

I'm still a little hazy on the whole disaster-response chain-of-command thingy, but I don't think the documents Cobra keeps quoting from says what he thinks they say.

It looks to me that Cobra's saying that the federal emergency declaration's statement that FEMA is to coordinate the disaster response meant that FEMA had the authority to override or ignore the local officials. I don't think that's what's meant. What's meant is that FEMA is to coordinate the FEDERAL disaster response -- that is, to coordinate the scope of work that the Constitution and laws assign to the feds. As I read it, it didn't have the effect of federalizing the entire disaster response.

Thomas - Thank you for getting to crux of the matter. I kept wading through Cobra's voluminous posts looking for the proof that was claimed to be therein, and you have just identified why I couldn't find it. It wasn't there, but Cobra didn't understand what was written. That is, that FEMA is responsible for coordinating the federal response with various federal agencies, NGO's like the Red Cross, and the state and local governments. Not that FEMA (much less the Red Cross alone) can igore the authorities in the states and localities.

So the left would have cheered if the president had ordered the 82nd Airborne to roll over the LA state police who were preventing supplies from reaching the superdome?

Question: Does the federal government have the power to take control of local disaster situations, without the permission of the local/state government?

Many of the posters here argue steadfastly that the feds have no such power under the constitution. It may not be so cut and dried.

Here's a quote from a Times article of Sept. 11 that touches on that question.

"Pentagon, White House and Justice officials debated for two days whether the president should seize control of the relief mission from Governor Blanco. But they worried about the political fallout of stepping on the state's authority, according to the officials involved in the discussions. They ultimately rejected the idea and instead decided to try to speed the arrival of National Guard forces, including many trained as military police.

Paul McHale, the assistant secretary of defense for homeland security, explained that decision in an interview this week. "Could we have physically moved combat forces into an American city, without the governor's consent, for purposes of using those forces - untrained at that point in law enforcement - for law enforcement duties? Yes."

Clearly, federal officials thought that they had the power, legally, but were concerned about political fallout.

"Clearly, federal officials thought that they had the power, legally, but were concerned about political fallout."

I doubt that very much. You must remember that the New York Times is not a credible source. The consensus view of Constitutional scholars is that the federal government does not possess this authority. Dissenting voices will be far and few between.

The Times does not deserve our respect. It is a biased piece of garbage.

I've followed Cobra's career at Discriminations.

I think he is actually plotting to use up all available disc storage space in the universe. What the purpose of this nefarious plot might be remains a mystery to me.

My advice to Cobra: start transmitting images. These use up for more megabyttage than these measly text dumps you seem to prefer.

"Clearly, federal officials thought that they had the power, legally, but were concerned about political fallout."

Actually, that's not quite the case. It's clear that the relevant federal officials thought it was at least arguable that they had the authority to seize control of the entire disaster response from the locals, but whether that authority was actually there wasn't clear at all. That's what "arguable" means -- it can go either way. And I do think that invoking the Insurrection Act based on reports of garden-variety looting and thuggery (i.e. an intensification of what NO, Detroit, DC, etc. experience on a good day) would be problematic at least.

I mean, if I remember correctly, the last time the Act was invoked, the insurrection in question was that rather involved unpleasantness that commenced with South Carolina getting peevish in 1861.

You mean South Carolina's taking exception to the Union's refusal to remove themselves from South Carolina property after South Carolina (apparently lawfully at the time) seceded from the Union?

I often wonder how history would have treated the whole affair if the first act of violence had been committed by the Union instead of the South.

I have to admit that I am pleased with what our country has become since then, and that we don't have divided borders etc. It's interesting to read some of the alternate history floating around out there (Harry Turtledove comes to mind) to speculate on how the North and the South would have fared as independent countries, and what alliances they would have formed with European countries at different points in history.

"if the Red Cross and FEMA had felt strongly that immediate entry into the city was essential"

Just what would FEMA have used for immediate entry into the city? FEMA itself does not have troops, cops, helicopters, boats, or anything else except some management personnel and office furniture. It has to get everything else from other agencies. Four days is about the fastest it has ever been able to requisition the people and equipment that can actually help and move them into the area, and four days is what it took to get started this time. Maybe if they'd really been on the ball, they'd have realized that the Red Cross was the one agency in position to give needed help sooner and told the state/local authorities to get the @#$% out of the way, but FEMA's managers had a whole lot else to think about at the same time.

And the first actions they did take were rather feeble - but I expect that was due to lack of transport that could make it from the mainland to NOLA. Hurricanes mess up roads badly even when they are on solid land rather than a causeway through a swamp, and tend to leave very few boats or helicopters in usable condition. Nor can boats and helicopters operate until the winds die down, which takes days after the hurricane first hits. The best way to bring in help to NOLA is by ship, and the best location for a command post is on a ship - and that is what they are using now. However, ships cannot sail too close to a hurricane, so their arrival was delayed.

The bottom line is, with what hurricanes always do to roads and other transportation, the victims are going to be on their own for a week or so before much help can arrive from outside. That means that if you set up a shelter in the area likely to be affected (like the Superdome), it had better have more than a week's worth of food, water, portapotties, etc. It isn't the feds job to pre-position this, it's the local authorities. And they didn't.

Publius, that strikes me as a lot interpolation. 'Political fallout' means "a lot of people would be royally ticked" and in a democracy (or republic) that, eventually, IS the basis of law. Taking at least minimal stock of it when acting in a gray area doesn't strike me as a certainty of having the ability to act. (Unless of course you mean the federal government has sufficient resources to theoretically run amuck for an extended period, but since that's a useless observation, I assume you meant something different.)

Moreover one can't help but wonder if such seizure would have made much difference, time-wise. The local and state officials were in the best position to have and act upon the necessary information and resources for fast response; they evidently didn't, so would the outcome of federal authority seizure have been the same thing that's there now, albeit with another black mark tallied against federalism?

monkeyboy writes:

So the left would have cheered if the president had ordered the 82nd Airborne to roll over the LA state police who were preventing supplies from reaching the superdome?

Hardly necessary for them to "roll over" anybody. The governor already granted (on August 27):

In accordance with 44 CFR § 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance:

1. Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work.

2. Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising from such work;

3. Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and

4. Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local jurisdictional matters.

Markm writes:

>>>"The bottom line is, with what hurricanes always do to roads and other transportation, the victims are going to be on their own for a week or so before much help can arrive from outside. That means that if you set up a shelter in the area likely to be affected (like the Superdome), it had better have more than a week's worth of food, water, portapotties, etc. It isn't the feds job to pre-position this, it's the local authorities. And they didn't."

Well, since I've been accused of making extraordinarily long and detailed posts on this thread...far be it from me to disappoint the masses now.

Press Release from August 27, 2005:

>>>City Of New Orleans
Mayors Office of Communications
1300 Perdido Street, Suite 2E04
New Orleans, Louisiana 70112
504-658-4940

C. Ray Nagin
MAYOR FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 27, 2005

Mayor Nagin Urges Citizens to Prepare For Hurricane Katrina

(New Orleans, LA) In response to the potential threat of Hurricane Katrina, Mayor C. Ray Nagin is urging all citizens to begin preparations now for the coming storm. Mayor Nagin will hold the next press briefing at 5 p.m. today in the Mayor’s Press Room, second floor of City Hall.

“Although the track could change, forecasters believe Hurricane Katrina will affect New Orleans,” said Mayor Nagin. “We may call for a voluntary evacuation later this afternoon or tomorrow morning to coincide with the instatement of contraflow. This will give people more options to leave the area. However, citizens need to begin preparing now so they will be ready to leave when necessary. Do everything to prepare for a regular hurricane, but treat this one differently because it is headed our way. This is not a test.”

The Mayor also recommended that residents of Algiers, the Lower Ninth Ward and low-lying areas begin evacuating now.

Gov. Blanco also urged citizens to take the storm seriously. “We can restore property, but we cannot restore lives,” she said.

Mayor Nagin is working with Gov. Kathleen Blanco and other City, local and State officials are watching the storm’s path and working together to make decisions that affect citizens. Gov. Blanco has declared a state of emergency in Louisiana, which provides city government with additional authority and improved access to resources needed when responding to elevated threats, such as natural disasters.

A state of emergency has been declared for the City of New Orleans. Citizens are advised to:
• Fill their cars with gas. Tolls have been suspended on roadways.
• Remove potential debris from their yards (including lawn furniture, potted plants, loose tree branches, etc.)
• Board windows and glass doors
• Make sure that nearby catch basins are clear of leaves or trash
• Stock up on bottled water, batteries, and non-perishable food items
• Check on family, friends and neighbors, especially the elderly, to make sure everyone has an evacuation plan
• Make provisions for pets. Shelters and many hotels do not accept pets.
-MORE-

“The key is being prepared for the event,” said Mayor Nagin. “We’re doing everything we can to make sure our city is safe.”

Shelters for Citizens with Special Medical Needs

There are two shelters for people with special medical needs open in the state. Citizens should call prior to going to the shelters. The shelter in Alexandria can be reached at (800) 841-5778; the number for Monroe’s shelter is (866) 280-7287. If it becomes necessary, other shelters will be opened in various cities. The Superdome will be opened as a refuge of last resort for special needs patients if it becomes necessary. All individuals may have one caretaker.

Anyone planning to spend time in a shelter should bring three to four days’ worth of food, sleeping gear, and medical supplies including oxygen, medicine and batteries for any necessary devices. No weapons or bulky items are allowed in any shelters.

New Orleans EMS is responding to medical emergencies only. For non-emergency transportation needs, citizens should contact local non-emergency ambulance providers:

Acadian: (504) 366-0911
Lifeguard: (504) 214-1911
Guardian: (504) 818-2600
A-Med: (504) 362-9490
Care: (504) 367-4231
On-Call: (504) 866-0481

Closings
New Orleans Public Schools will be closed Monday, August 29, 2005. All NOPS activities scheduled for this weekend have been cancelled.

New Orleans Public Libraries will close at 3 p.m. today, Saturday, August 27, 2005, and remain closed through Monday, August 29, 2005.

The City of New Orleans will be issuing additional advisories as the storm progresses. Citizens are asked to remain alert, monitor news stories and be prepared to respond promptly to any public safety advisories.

--END--

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=1&load=~/PortalModules/ViewPressRelease.ascx&itemid=3139

The Superdome in this press release is defined as a "refuge of last resort," not an official shelter, but despite that fact, the Mayor is on the record stating that people staying in shelters should BRING WITH THEM at least three days worth of food. This makes sense when viewed with the SOP for the City of New Orleans hurricane guidelines:

>>>PART 3: SHELTERING

(See ESF-6, Mass Care)

Emergency shelter operations are the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Preparedness Shelter Coordinator. Shelters are provided by the Orleans Parish School Board, while manager training and support activities and supplies are provided by the Office of Emergency Preparedness.

Reassessment of facilities is an on-going process conducted jointly by the School Board, and Emergency Preparedness Division. The shelter activation list is updated yearly, and takes into consideration new school construction, school closings and renovations.

A. Shelter Demand

Shelter demand is currently under review by the Shelter Coordinator. Approximately 100,000 Citizens of New Orleans do not have means of personal transportation. Shelter assessment is an ongoing project of the Office of Emergency Preparedness through the Shelter Coordinator.

The following schools have been inspected and approved as Hurricane Evacuation Shelters for the City of New Orleans: Laurel Elementary School

Walter S. Cohen High School

Medard Nelson Elementary School

Sarah T. Reed High School

Southern University Multi Purpose Center

Southern University New Science Building

O. Perry Walker High School

Albert Wicker Elementary School

It should not be assumed that all of the approved shelters listed above will be opened in the event of a hurricane or other major tropical storm. The names and locations of open shelters will be announced when an evacuation order is issued. This list is not for public information and should not be duplicated and distributed. In the event that shelters are opened, people who go to their nearest listed location may find, for one reason or another, that the facility is not open as a shelter, forcing them to seek an alternate location. It is also possible that people anticipating the opening of shelters may arrive before shelters are set-up and ready to receive them. For these and other reasons, shelters which are to be used will not be identified until they are ready to open and not until an evacuation order, related public announcement is made.

Last Resort Refuges and Super Shelters are described in specific SOPs covering their applications."

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

Also part of the plan that few seem to want to note or acknowlege:

>>>Feeding and food and supply distribution sites shall be established following a disaster in geographically distributed sites across the Parish. Feeding sites shall be established by ESF?6, Mass Care, in conjunction with ESF?11, Food and Water. The Southeast Louisiana Chapter of the American Red Cross and the Salvation Army shall provide the lead in establishing and operating these sites. The Second Harvest Food Bank shall provide leadership in the acquiring and distribution of food and water. ESF?15, Volunteers and Donations, shall direct outside resources to the appropriate sites where these volunteer services can best be used."

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

Now I don't have to post full text verbatum accounts of the Red Cross and other volunteers being BLOCKED from entering the city of New Orleans after the storm, because you already KNOW that happened.

Using your argument, Markm, if the City of New Orleans had to stock food and water for an entire week for 100,000 anticipated non-evacuaees, you're looking at CONSERVATIVELY:

2,100,000 bottles of water (assuming each person would drink three a day for 7 days.)
1,400,000 MRE's or equivolent, skipping lunch, for two meals a day each.
Incalcuable amounts of diapers, specialized medicine, prescription drugs, etc.

Assuming they don't overflow, taking the reference from Woodstock '99 on mass bathroom usage:

>>>"More than 2500 portajohns and small units will be stationed at many locations on site.

It is expected crowds will generate 1200 tons of solid waste and 500,000 gallons of liquid waste."

http://members.aol.com/Mary1NYS/Cool.html

Although 100,000 is about half of what Woodstock 99 anticipated, your model calls for a time period twice the length of that festival, so the matrix is even.

Do you see the logistics involved here, Markm?

This storm was CLEARLY and WITHOUT question BEYOND the capacity of local and state governments to deal with, which was EXPLICITLY pronounced in Governor Blanco's Press Release for Friday, November 26, 2005.
And that's why it was IMPERATIVE that Federal Government Aid arrived PROMPTLY in the beginning of the week, and not at when it finally did.

--Cobra

Cobra: So you're saying that the problem is that NOLA's poor didn't follow instructions? Big surprise - my eyes glazed over reading that proclamation, and I spend part of each day reading data sheets and technical manuals.

However, consider two other things. There's a considerable difference between "three to four days’ worth of food..." and the week's plus that I would expect to be normally required. And then there were those who knew what they were doing when they didn't bring food, etc., to the Superdome - instead they brought their gang and took other peoples' stuff. Why weren't there enough police in the Superdome to prevent that?

"Do you see the logistics involved here, Markm?" Yes. Do you see the logistics involved in trying to ship that stuff in from elsewhere, while the highways into town have been changed to all outbound lanes and an approaching hurricane is making flying hazardous? It isn't possible. All it takes to stockpile the stuff on site ahead of time is money. I'll bet the residents of NOLA paid more than enough local taxes to cover that, but like certain levee improvement funds, the local government had other priorities.

So we're left with your claim that the federal government should tax the rest of the country to make up for the failure of state and local government to provide for the particular hazards caused by their decision to keep expanding a city that was sinking below sea level. In other words, you want the feds to pay for stupidity. That's how you get more stupidity.

Cobra, you've never been so clearly and totally wrong and you still won't back off.

The end result is what matters. Fewer than a thousand deaths when the initial prediction was 10,000. The evacuation succeeded. The Federal response, while not perfect succeeded.

The reason blacks were most seriously impacted in New Orleans was simple. They are the majority of the population.

You've seldom been so transparently full of it, or so obviously determined to find racism where none exists.

President Bush did a fine job. You owe him public thanks and an apology for your one-note rantings that obviously have no basis in fact.

He had the grace to apologize for his failings. I won't expect such grace from you.

Dave Thomas: The fact that the Times found a high defense dept official who completly refutes your argument does not mean that the Times is "garbage," as you so eloquently intone. The only really unprofessional reporting I've seen in the Times in the last five years was the series of stories by Judith Miller on supposed weapons programs in Iraq. Essentially all of it turned out to be hooey, all of it came from the Administration, and all of it mirrored what was being boroadcast on Fox.

You refer to a "consensus" of constitutional scholars as supporting your view of the limited power of federal government to act in an emergency. Oh yeah? You've read dozens of law review articles on this narrow topic, have you? One wonders how you found the time.

On the larger question of state-federal responsibility for the unfolding fiasco, I see ineptitude to spare on all sides. FEMA red tape, though, is beginning to steal the lime light from Gov. Blanco's dithering during the weekend of Sept. 3-4.

Example: More than 350 firefighters from around the country volunteeered to help out in NO, but FEMA has held them in Atlanta for two weeks to train them in community relations work, and things like how to avoid charges of sex discrimination. I'm quite convinced that community relations work was not what they had in mind and not the best use of people trained in firefighting and rescue work.

Example: FEMA stopped two truckloads of bottled water from being delivered to an Air Force base in Alabama, and held them in place for two days becuase they couldn't come up with the right "tasker number" -- a number the drivers had never heard of and had no ready way to obtain.

Example: FEMA refused to release needed medical supplies--under its control-- for days because local officials did not fax fully filled out requisition forms, despite the fact that the fax machines were off-line due to the ongoing power failure. Air Force people--God bless them--showed up and just handed over some of the needed supplies, recognizing that speed was of the essence.

Example: There may be up to 100,000 people stuck in Jefferson Parish, LA., where FEMA has an office but no food/water distribution. If a parish (county) resident wants food and water, they have to go to the adjoining parish, but if they do, they are barred (by local police) from returning to their homes for security reasons. Yet to find shelter, they would then have to travel 80 miles to yet another parish where FEMA is more operational. Neeedless to say, many are reluctant to leave and are outraged that FEMA is doing nothing to distribute food locally. Still, the local FEMA boss insists with a straight face that he knows of no one in the parish who is short of food or water. How can he say that? Because he has not received offical requests through appropriate channels.

BTW: I think Pres. Bush has been acting very presidential in all this--really quite impressive to any objective observer--but that he is being ill-served by an extraordinarily inept bureacracy. Some say that it's his fault for stuffing the agency with more than its fair share of incompetent cronies. Maybe yes, maybe no--FEMA has never been a model of stream-lined efficiency. The ones who smell like a rose right now are the US military, and hopefully the president will be able to use his authority to dispatch them where and when needed regardless of FEMA's desires to "coordinate" everything.

Well, that's not entirely surprising -- the military is meritocratic and hierarchical, its members regularly train for worst-case scenario, and they likewise expect to encounter it and respond at any place and time without regard for personal welfare. Very unlike almost any bureacracy known to man.

So maybe what we need now is to shut down FEMA and reorganize its capabilities in subordination to the respective state national guards? And perhaps write black-and-white legislation giving the federal government authority to mobilize a state's national guard under federal military jurisdiction for any type of mass-fatality disaster, natural or artificial?

Albeit that may be asking the system, overall, to requisition and apply more competency than it can possibly have...

Publius: That isn't "extraordinarily inept bureacracy" in my experience, but just plain ordinary bureacracy.

The military has it's own bureacracy problems, but has more motivation to keep a handle on them - their own people die when their bureacracy f's up during a war. Also, they are used to doing their jobs during a disaster - because combat is a man-made disaster. The military must keep their systems functioning even if phone lines are cut, radios jammed, headquarters is bombed, and bridges blown up just when they need them. They did a pretty good job with disaster relief after that earthquake near Indonesia last year.

The problem with making disaster relief entirely a military task is that it's always going to be a secondary job. Sometimes they'll be tied up doing their primary job somewhere on the other side of the world. (In the case of Indonesia, the Navy could deliver relief quite soon because they already were over there; the question is how good they'd be when needed back here.) However, it may be safe to assume that the way the Army is run now, there will always be units that have been rotated back to the States for rest, integration of new troops, training, and replacement and reconditioning of their equipment, so there will always be some units that are nearby and can respond even if a little understrength.

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