Asymmetrical Information

Well, this one's an easy one, Jane. On both ends of the political spectrum, there is an element for which the political becomes a surrogate, secular religion. And I think that stems from an inability to face up to the fact that life is unfair, and messy, and the universe doesn't care if you get sick and die or if bad people thrive. So they blame people, because if those bad people would just wise up and see the obvious, why then the world would be all rainbows and balloons. Choices? Tradeoffs? No, no, la-la-la, I don't hear you.
I don't want to start a big pissing contest betweeen left and right, which would ironically both illustrate my point and be intensely annoying, but whenever you see both sides talking past each other, you might wonder if that's because they're afraid to honestly talk to each other.

Most of you at some time are going to want to have kids

Whether we want kids or not is irrelevant, since we have no say in whether we do. Women are the only ones with a say in whether or not they give birth, and every woman gives birth voluntarily. So saying that it is "unfair" that women experience pain and unpleasantness from pregnancy is ridiculous -- it can't be unfair, because every one of those women voluntarily chose to go through with it. You might as well say that it is unfair that I have a hangover after a night of barhopping.

Furthermore, the only inherently unfair part of this is that only women have to deal directly with pregnancy. All the other unfairness is of entirely human creation. Comparing the unfairness of pregnancy to the unfairness of child support for unwanted children makes little sense -- the former is a biological fact, the latter a correctable legal mistake.

"Our bodies, our choice" makes sense. "Our bodies, our choice, your child support bill" does not. Men should have the option to opt out by paying the cost of an abortion; if the woman chooses not to take the man up on that offer, that is of course her right, but it is not reasonable to expect that she should have the right to demand support from the man thereafter.

Whether we want kids or not is irrelevant, since we have no say in whether we do. Women are the only ones with a say in whether or not they give birth

Sorry Dan, but it seems to me men have the option to "opt out" by not engaging in sex acts that can result in procreation.

As far as this series on abortion: Jane, what a voice of sweet reason in a cacphony of hypocrisy.

Thanks!

How about this "tradeoff and uncomfortable compromise"? I'll work my tail off to put a roof over our heads and food on the table. You take on the cleaning, maintenance, schooling and general family coordination. I'll give up regular sex. You give up romance. Together we'll try to love and raise up a civilized human being or two.

Wait, isn't this my grandparents life?

Wow, Jane.
I'm amazed at how often I agree with you.

Yeah, Dan. Life is unfair. Robert is right, on. Don't want the kid, don't boff the woman. If she decides to have the child, well...a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. It's been that way for eons and it seems to have worked pretty well, then.

Sorry Dan, but it seems to me men have the option to "opt out" by not engaging in sex acts that can result in procreation.

You hold the pro-life position that consenting to sex means consenting to having kids. I'm not pro-life; I don't agree that having sex means signing on for twenty years of child care. I believe that women have the right to abort their pregnancies, and men have the right to refuse to fund women's pregnancies. People should support both rights or neither; they shouldn't support just the first (the modern feminist position) or the latter (as was done in the bad old days).

Don't want the kid, don't boff the woman.

I guess we can make abortions illegal again, then? Don't want a kid, don't have sex.

If she decides to have the child, well...a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. It's been that way for eons and it seems to have worked pretty well, then.

What history books have YOU been reading? For most of history men had no obligation to pay child support for bastards. Women were stuck raising them on their own, and were socially shunned for doing so.

Dan: In the USA up to about 1965, there was a very strong social expectation that if you got her pregnant, you married her. Successful lawsuits for breach of promise or paternity were quite rare, because DNA testing hadn't been invented so proof was nearly impossible, but at least in the small town where I grew up, a young man who didn't face up to his responsibility had better leave town.

Really rich men had considerably more leeway - but mainly because they could afford to quietly pay support for the mother and child, like Grover Cleveland.

"As a woman, of course I am extremely sensitive to the unfairness of it all. But there is no power on earth that is going to rectify that unfairness. Nature gave us a big job, and the tools to do it. Unfortunately, many of those tools, like hormones and breastfeeding, actively conflict with the establishment of an androgenous society."

In vitro gestation. Science fiction often either takes it for granted or explores its impact. See the delightful romance/bloody action novel "Cordelia's Honor" for a prime example. If it were deemed acceptable to do the research it isn't that far out of reach.

Jane: We still have the choice of whether to walk upright! Personally, I drag my knuckles whenever possible, but even from under my prominent brow ridges I can see you have a very good point. Unfortunately, this is an issue where emotion trumps reason at every turn.

Dan: In the USA up to about 1965, there was a very strong social expectation that if you got her pregnant, you married her.

I'm talking about legal obligations, not what society expects. After all, there is a very strong social expectation that a woman who gets pregnant as a result of consentual sex should give birth to the child; abortion is, nevertheless, legal.

Dan is right. The woman has complete control over whether a child is born. As such, the woman should have complete responsibility for the child or reach a voluntary agreement with the father to take or share that responsibility.

Yes, the man can decide whether or not to have sex, but so can the woman. The decision on whether to have any resulting child is solely the woman's.

In vitro gestation. Science fiction often either takes it for granted or explores its impact. See the delightful romance/bloody action novel "Cordelia's Honor" for a prime example. If it were deemed acceptable to do the research it isn't that far out of reach.

Not that far out of reach compared to what? Economical nuclear fusion? Interstellar travel? Natural-language interfaces that actually work? People living to be 200 years old?

Although the societal changes would indeed be something to behold. Sadly, the initial attempts at in-vitro-gestated babies are going to be something no one will want to behold.

Vat-grown steak and/or fur and/or leather, on the other hand, could qualify as not so far out of reach, and should have some pretty profound social consequences as well.

Stan said:
"As such, the woman should have complete responsibility for the child or reach a voluntary agreement with the father to take or share that responsibility."

You mean we should dust off the quaint notion of [hetero] marriage being about forming a family?

Vat-grown steak? How about Chicken?

"You mean we should dust off the quaint notion of [hetero] marriage being about forming a family?"

GASP! :)

Not to make too fine a point of this, but I'm not necessarily advocating that the decision to marry should be about forming a family. Rather, the decision to bring a baby into this world needs to be accompanied by the corresponding *responsibility* to care and provide for it. Ideally (IMO), both the decision and the responsibility are shared jointly by the baby's mother and father. But if the mother elects to go it alone, without the consent of the father, she should have to take full responsibility for the baby's needs and not have the legal right to drag the father into it.

sizegenetics

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