Asymmetrical Information

Just to post a clarification I noted in the thread below -- The Taylor Law prohibits the TWU from striking, but it also prohibits the MTA from firing the strikers. The two-days pay loss for each day striking is the best they can do in terms of punishment, so the state agency can't pull a PATCO on the workers, or they'll be in as much violation of the state law as Toussant and his people are right now.

Well, it IS Festivus season. What better time for the airing of grievances?

So, with 1000 back to work and presumably more coming, can the MTA reopen a subway line and a few bus routes?

Have to agree with Jane, again. The union and its workers will never pay a dime in penalties. There will be a provision in the settlement to drop them in return for an immediate cease to the strike.

Regarding Taylor: if the union can strike illegally, why can't the city fire their asses illegally?

Just askin.

Russ

John:

Does it? Can't the MTA take disciplinary action against workers for unexcused absences?

Yes, after a long appeals process -- though given New York's pro-union political leanings I don't think they get a judge to put the strikers under that exception, even as mad as the public is right now at the TWU (Now whether or not a jury would convict someone who made Roger Toussant imitate Steve Brody on the Brooklyn Bridge is another matter entirely...)

Okay, do maybe the workers don't get docked 2 for 1, but the judges fine of $1 Million per day would not be part of the contract settlement, would it? I mean, the judiaciary imposing fines is not a participant in the contract. So the union could still be bankrupted, no?

There is little chance they recind the fines. That ship has sailed; the precedent is more important. The Union's illegal acts damaged the public. Rank and file is banking on these fines getting dropped. Pataki and Bloomberg will not stand for it. As Johnny Rambo said, "they drew first blood."

What might be done to pressure the union leaders is to arrest all of them for conspiracy, which is usually a felony. They have encouraged others to break the law, been public about it, hence a conspiracy.

"The Taylor Law prohibits the TWU from striking, but it also prohibits the MTA from firing the strikers. "

So you're saying the Taylor Law was created making it illegal for the workers to strike, but if they went ahead and did it anyway, that the MTA couldn't fire them for it? Sounds implausible to me. A Law that pretends to govern over occasions where it is itself broken?

The Taylor Law does not prohibit the MTA from firing the strikers. See Nicole Gelinas on this point and other options the NY city and state governments have for ending the strike:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_12_21_05ng.html

Under the Taylor Law they can hold the union leaders in contempt of court, fine them, jail them and fine the union $1 million a day, but they can't terminate the workers for following their union leader's strike orders.

Also, here's a primer on the do's and don't of the Taylor Law, from the NYS Teacher's Union website, that I posted on the earlier thread (NYC teachers have been without a new contract for three years, but haven't defied the Taylor Law by striking).

If they do have a strike fund, which seems weird because it is illegal for them to strike, it would seem appropriate to seize that fund and start subtracting the million dollar a day fines from it, while allowing nothing to be paid out to the strikers. And although there may be local or state statutes which make this impossible, ordinarily a cause of action will lie against the perpetrator when he has done something to the victim which is prohibited by law. Can businesses which have been hurt by this strike band together and file a class action law suit against the union? Can ordinary people? Maybe the local government won't stand up against them, but just let a bunch of private lawyers who smell a trace of blood for an entity that has lots of bucks and the union members may soon regret that they ever were born.

I suspect a lot will depend on which direction public opinion runs, and how strongly. They're the ones who A) sit on juries and B) vote. The strike is causing a lot of New Yorkers a lot of woe, but is it the MTA or the TWU they hold responsible? Whichever side it is they're going to want to punish, along with any politician who supports that side. Safe bet there's a whole lotta polling going on.

Ok, the Taylor law disallows retaliation by the MTA by firing the transit workers. But does it disallow the suspension of said workers motorman's or bus driver's licenses ? I remember when I obtained my driver's license, I was told that it "is a privilege not a right, able to be taken away".

BTW, I walk now about 2 1/2 miles to work. Not as bad as many.

tcobb, that is probably the best likelyhood for ending the strike. Get one of the big legal shark firms that went after big tobacco and have them file for class action status on behalf of everyone who works in NYC, everyone who lives in NYC, every business who is in NYC, every business (outside NYC)that employs people from NYC, and the City itself. Go for the full $400M a day plus punitive against the union and all striking members.
Oh, and have a Federal judge certify the status of the classes involved. I would imagine that damages resulting from illegal actions might allow for confiscation of pension funding. A possibly legitimate threat of that would tighten some sphincters anyway.

END public employee unions.

Negotiating with politicians they put in office is absurd.

I think it's time to disenfranchise government workers. That's no way to run a democracy.

Russ: "Regarding Taylor: if the union can strike illegally, why can't the city fire their asses illegally?"

No need. Reincorporate the MTA, building into the new operation private-ish buslines to reach the outer boroughs, and reincorporating seperate subway lines under private (but state or city oversited) purview.

Hell, I still call those lines the IRT and the IND.

Achillea asked: "The strike is causing a lot of New Yorkers a lot of woe, but is it the MTA or the TWU they hold responsible?"

A TWU toll booth collector with no more than a HS education makes 50K a year, has great medical benefits and retires with a full pension at 54. Info like this is starting to get out to the public and most people they are not overly sympathetic to that striking toll booth collector who makes more than many teachers in the city.

As a rule it is difficult to fire public employees. Workers are often "allowed" a small number of unexcused absences. Then, under the theory of "progressive discipline", after a number of unexcused absences, the worker would be given an oral warning. If the pattern continues, the worker could be given a written warning. After that, if the absences continue, there would be a disciplinary hearing with the worker's manager, a personnel manager, and the shop steward present. These hearings usually end with the worker being given a second chance because even though the manager may want to lose this negative person, personnel does not want to deal with filling a vacancy, or worse, losing an unfilled position in the next budget. After all of that, if the absences continue, the worker could be fired. Oh, and did I mention that each absence and each warning has to be documented? The bottom line is that these folks are going to be back at work in a few days, hopefully soon. The trick is how to put the fear of god into them so they don't do it again. The MTA should stand firm about not waiving the penalties called for by the court. This would break the local union. No doubt a new union would rise in its place, but, unless thousands of people with good jobs are complete idiots, it is likely to be more moderate. Bankrupting TWU local 100 would have a salutory affect on other public unions, and it could all be done by an unelected board that does not depend on campaign contributions.

I don't mean to be contentious about this, but it's just plain wrong to say that the Taylor law "prohibits" striking public employees from being fired. Although Taylor does not MANDATE that striking MTA employees be fired (as the pre-1967 law did) it does permit illegally striking workers to be fired if the public employer requests so.

Toussaint also compared breaking the law by calling the strike to breaking the law by not giving up one's seat at the front of the bus and refusing to sit at the back.

With the recent demise of the great Rosa Parks, Toussaint invokes "racial" and "civil rights" propoganda behind this strike. Toussaint (who probably deems himself a reincarnation of his namesake who lead the revolt against the French in Haiti) and his colossal ego are hurting New Yorkers - not least of whom are the "people of color" from foreign lands who can't pay their rent because they are hourly wage workers, and all because of Toussaint's "civil rights" delusions.

I can't even begin to tell you how sickening that is.

Toll booth workers are not on strike. They work for the Port Authority of NY & NJ, not the MTA.

Donnel
I was walking to work yesterday and there were two women ahead of me, discussing Toussaint's comment. They were not impressed. The last part of the conversation I heard was, "Hey, I'm black too. Don't go there."
The NYT of course, points out that 70% of the TWU is composed of "blacks, hispanics, and asians". This is because the NYT is composed of 90% liberal wankers with chipmunk sized balls.

Denver's RTD, per state statute passed in 2003, mandates that 50% of all bus routes be subcontracted (First Transit, Laidlaw, and Connex handle those duties).

As a Denver bus rider, I can tell you the quality of the subcontractors as far as on-time arrival goes is second to none. Bus condition with at least one subcontractor, OTOH, leaves something to be desired.

I agree with Steve M.
The news today was full of praise for the way Pataki handled the strike. I live in NYC, and didn't see his face once. Bloomberg won me over a bit though. He seemed more genuine and Mayoral than I've ever seen him
Touissaint and Co. were ridiculous, and I'm not surprised that the rank and file voted to end the strike against his wishes.
At this point (news blackout)no-one knows what gains the union may have achieved. I hope it's not retirement at 35;)

Actually there may be some truth to The MTA being racist...
Metro North and Long Island Railroad employees make approx..$10:00 an hour more than NYC subway and buses. And here's the kicker....the money that the subway and city bus workers earn are what's paying the Metro North and LI Railraod workers salaries.

You people have no idea how evil the MTA really is. You sit in judgment of the subway workers while the MTA cooks it's books and raises the fares, screwing over every rider.

It's not a transit workers fault that teachers are being underpaid and now they are screwing our cherrished police officers @ 12 bucks an hour. THAT IS DISGRACEFUL NO MATTER HOW TEMPORARY IT IS !
YOU PEOPLE NEVER MENTION THAT TRANSIT WORKERS RISKED THEIR LIVES TO GO BACK INTO MANHATTAN TO GET THE RIDERS OUT on 9-11. NOT ONE TRAIN OPERATOR or CONDUCTOR REFUSED TO GO BACK INTO MANHATTAN TO EVACUATE PEOPLE FROM MANHATTAN AND GET THEM SAFELY HOME.

NONE OF YOU PEOPLE EVER MENTION THE WORK THE TRANSIT WORKERS DID GETTING RIDERS OUT SAFELY IN THE BLACKOUT.

BUT YOU DO ENDEAVOR TO MENTION THAT THEY SEEK A FAIR WAGE COMPARED TO THEIR COUNTERPARTS OF METRO NORT AND LONG ISLAND RAILROAD.

SHAME ON YAS>

a fair wage to drive a subway is 6.75 an hour.

my dog could do that job. hell you can automate it and fire them all.

end public transit, end public unions, end public employees voting. mandate only non-citizens as public employees.

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