Asymmetrical Information

Hey, hey, now, don't freak out with the ipecac.

But, look, shouldn't you say, I'm grossly overweight and ugly as sin to boot? Isn't there a wonk-girl persona that would augment your credibility here? I mean, it's not like you date the guys you meet on the weblog, for cryin' out loud. And our sense of who's intellectually credible is, let's face it, more than a bit messed up.

I think this requires evidentiary refutation.

Pictures please:-)

I saw a photo of Jane in a gorgeous dress - I've forgotten the occasion - and she is very attractive and not in the least fat.

I know how some personal attacks can cut one deeply. But this one is just off base. Jane is a hottie.

I think the attacker is just one of those small people who is unhappy with themselves and makes a hobby of finding ways most effectively calculated to hurt people.

Please tell me that no one could suggest something that you would find biologically improbable! I have great faith in you. Perhaps, James is a little shorter and smaller than JG, and suffering relative deprivation from his Napoleonic complex. Alternatively (and without the ad hominem attack), there is some old saw that love and hate are flip sides of the same coin, the only opposites are ambivalence and intensity of feeling (to wit, James finds 6'2" and size 8 - 10, HOT!). Good job, James!

I wrote Jane a note a while back telling her that I have a crush on her and that hasn't changed. I think she is hot stuff, both intellectually and physically.

I attended her lecture on failure last week and can attest to the fact that, if anything, Jane could stand to gain ten pounds. She's skinny for her height!

The Good James (who is not to be confused with the Rude James), who stands a few inches taller than Jane and so knows a thing or two about weight and height).

Uh, I know this is libertarian website and all, but if you look at the CDC's BMI, for somebody who is 6'2" and 151 lbs, you get a BMI of 19.4, which is normal, and normal range is 18.5 to 24.9, so you're actually awfully close to being underweight.

As opposed to me, who is seriously undertall.

Interesting how civility goes out the window when anonymity is introduced.

A couple of weeks ago, I was informed in a blog comment, among other sentiments where it was not strikingly out of place, that "I hope you die."

Maybe we should have a contest for this sort of thing: Nastiest Thing Ever Said To Us On A Blog, or somesuch.

Not that it should matter, but I've also met the lovely Megan, and there is no way anyone could say she is heavy.

I suspect, as anony-mouse suggested in the earlier post's comments, that James was confused and was actually commenting on how skinny Miss Megan is. Guys often are very bad judges of the weight of women (perhaps because women withhold this info or fudge it so often), and poor James was probably expressing his amazement that Jane weighed anything over 130 (the default mean weight of women as guessed by men who don't know better).

I'll also add that unless you're standing right next to her, Jane does seem quite 6'2" (perhaps an illusion due to her slender build)-- again, causing the less experiences to be amazed at any weight over 130. Anyhow, that's my theory, in (mild) defense of James. You may now return to speculating on the character, attributes or measure of the man.

Perhaps he was referring to an especially large moon; perhaps Endor, not THE Moon.

I have no means with which to speculate on the intent of the original commenter, but here's even a different take than AJ's above. Body types are extremely variable, and weight v. appearance can be extremely variable. I have an uncle who weighs probably 40 pounds more than anyone would ever guess, and no one can explain it - the proverbial dense bones, I suppose.

From my perspective, I stand an inch shorter than Jane and - well, let's just say I weigh a lot more than she does. I'm overweight, and I admit it. I want to lose weight and get in better shape. BUT: given my build (as it is now, as it was before I gained weight), if I did anything more than graze the upper end of the CDC's "normal" range for BMI, I'd have no discernable muscle whatsoever. Now, granted, I'm a guy, so along with presumptions that I should be heavier at any given height than a woman, I'm also supposed to be stupid and unobservant. But I was, in fact, surprised that Jane apparently weighed so little because if you quoted me her height/weight I'd imagine someone much much skinnier than the one photo (admittedly, a head/neck shot) I've seen of her - sickly skinny, really. I'd have assumed that she weighed more and was still thin. One of my ex girlfriends fluctuated in the same weight range as Jane, stood 5'9", and I still thought of her as thin-to-normal, and I'd wager most other people would also.

I can only recall seeing two pictures of Jane and in both she looked quite slim.
Let me reminisce: glasses, slung over a chair, in front of a computer, diet coke can on desk, beautiful intellectual;
and brides-maid dress, from the back, head turned, nice fanny, big bow.
I think I got it right, but I'm only going by memory. (pant, pant)

Dac and Quarterican, BMI is kind of a blunt instrument, as I point out in this post.

Good grief! I've seen your picture, and I don't know what James was smoking, but I know I don't want any.

Personally, I think there are too many guys running around who think they are Brad Pitt, and it causes them to be hypercritical about the appearance of females.

Why do some guys think they are handsome devils when they are not? Because women have told them they are good looking, so they just believe it. Here's the truth guys. When a woman tells you you are cute/handsome/good looking, it can mean one of three things: (1) She likes you, and although it doesn't really have to do with your looks, "good looking" is just a handy way to describe the physical attraction resulting from whatever she does like about you (sense of humor, intelligence, . . .). (2) She's just being nice. (This is more common than you probably think. (3) You actually are good looking. (This is in the third spot because it is the least common reason to tell a man he is good looking.)

Oh, and by the way, even if you are good looking, it doesn't mean you are fabulous looking, so don't let it go too much to your head. If you are really good looking, you will probably hear it a lot from women you don't know at all. If it's your mother, sister, wife or girlfriend, accept the compliment, but with a grain of salt.

Can I ask why you were asked to talk about failure? If someone wanted me to give a talk on failure, I'd be pretty insulted.

I wasn't asked to talk on that subject; I was asked to talk, and chose that subject. Institutional mechanisms for dealing with failure are one of hte unsung strengths of the American economy.

I suspect that Rude James has made an elementary mistake. In trying to say that she was exceptionally thin, the mistakenly used the Moon as his target heavenly body, not realizing that you are in fact LIGHTER on the Moon.

Perhaps he meant to say "On what planet are you 150?" Having left the reference to Lunar gravity off would have left the comment open to interpretation.

Or he could be a tool. Dunno.

Quarterican, good point about how variable weight is on people of similar height and build, however, given how James worded his comment, do you really think he thought Megan's weight was that dramatically wrong in the other direction? How much could he really think a tall, skinny woman could weigh? Sure a tall, large-framed woman could easily be 20 or 30 pounds heavier and a tall, fat woman even more, but I don't think any guy would have thought Megan was dramatically heavier than her stated weight.

Where is James anyhow? Is it possible that he knows her and is just totally messing with Megan's head? (Nah, Megan probably checked the IP address.)

Anyhow, I think the message to Megan is get off the treadmill, put down the bottle of ipecac and go have a hamburger, fries and a shake.

AJ - like I said, I'm not guessing as to what James was actually thinking. When I read his initial comment the thought that he might've meant what I wrote above crossed my mind, but it's not how I would've put it. And, yeah, if JAne claimed to be thin and weigh 185 pounds I'd presume that she either had incredibly dense bones or by "thin" really meant "quite muscular", given the average differences between male and female physique. (That's the other thing - people use "thin" to mean "height/weight proportional" as well as "underweight", which makes no sense/is an artifact of our culture's messed-upness. I don't want to be thin!)

That's crazy-talk. I'm male, 6'3", and 160#; I'm almost comically thin. Any less than 145 and Jane will be able to get a side-gig in UNICEF commercials.

Christ... I'm 6'2" and weight 175lbs... and thats AFTER losing weight!

There ain't no way in God's green earth that any female at 6'2" is overweight at 151 and change.

You're fine.

I'd bet that everyone who guessed that james was expressing disbelief that you weighed as much as 150, given what you look like, is right. My sister is around your height, and gets absolute disbelief when she mentions her weight; people don't seem to realize that women's weight scales with height the same way men's does.

AJ:

Excellent point - most men have no clue how much the women in their lives weigh, or what size they wear, but they know that supermodels weigh in the hundred-and-teens or so, are tall, and are plain skinny (except where they're mysteriously not... hmmm), so they assume ten-twenty pounds more will accurately peg a height-weight proportionate non-supermodel woman. Little do they know.

Denise:

I second all that. Men's self-delusions about how good-looking they are are exceeded only by women's self-delusions in the opposite direction about theirs. I try really hard not to rail against the cultural norms that make Shallow Hal a plausible scenario, but sometimes...

And finally, Jane:

The only reason to pick up a bottle of ipecac is to chuck it in james's face. Tread if you must, because it's good for you and will help you ward off joint problems and osteoporosis later in life, but send james on over to me - I bet I can crush him using only my left hand.

I've been strutting around like a peacock because a friend of my mother said I was handsome and now Denise comes along and pops my balloon and lets the air out of my sails and yanks me back into reality. Shucks, now I have to go back to being nice.

BMI is comically bad. Just ridiculous. I've always been borderline obese according to BMI at 5'9-10" and 185ish. Never mind that I was competitive at State Track and Cross Country at 800m-5km. Now, thanks to desk work, I could lose 5-10 punds to get a six pack, but...

As to how to judge women's weight as a man... one of the main problems is that we are always being lied to. Relationships, for A, but the main reason is that models/actresses tend to overstate their height, or have their height overstated for them, as well as frequently understating their weights. We know generally how the rather underweight celebs with 5 hous a day to train map to women we know in the real world, but our references in terms of height/weight are skewed. Taking that to a 6'2" woman... no reference at all. Bad James is an idiot.

The photo thread is attached to my name. I stand my my statement in that thread. To reiterate:

1. Jane is pretty.
2. Most men on the internet are effing creepy.

I don't know if it's occurred to anybody else, but with your dimensions, intelligence, and exotic good looks, you'd be a natural to play the title role if a movie/tv show is ever made about Honor Harrington.

I only check in once in a while, but girrrrrrl you look good -- I can tell by the way you write!

Like most people, I want most of the world to think that I'm a nice guy. I think that I put a pretty good effort towards achieving that, so much so that if somone decides that they don't much like me then I suddenly lose all interest in their opinion.

So why is it that women are devestated if someone thinks that they are less than perfectly attractive? Can someone please explain to me why Megan thinks that a comment by an unknown fellow about her weight, a guy who's opinion should mean about as much to her as that of a homeless guy, is worth commenting on?

Speaking only for myself, I certainly want those I'm interested in dating to have a positive opinion of my physical charms. Otherwise it matters to me about as much as my dogs' taste for cat poop: they're not going to get any, so it hardly matters one way or another. I hardly think that Megan is just looking to fall into the arms of any nondescript guy who attended her lecture, so her reaction to his comments just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Many of the people who left comments to this post are quick to reassure Megan about her appearance, which is certainly very nice of them. I'm sure that she will thank you as soon as she thinks of it.

James

Thank you all. ;-)

Probably the person who made the comment gets most of his information on women's weights from centerfolds, where none of the stats can be trusted. And if a 5'8" model with centerfold-worthy stats claims to weigh 106, then anyone over that weight has got to be fat, right?

I am probably about the same age as Megan's father. I would be extremely proud to have a daughter with her thoughtfullness, intelligence, wit and communications skills, no matter what she looked like.

From another perspective, an attractive 6'2" woman at 150 pounds in a size 8 dress with a commanding intellect and a sense of humor is a goddess in my book.

I have seen what passes for "beauty" in our society, though I can't name them because I don't pay attention to them, since there is really nothing to hold my attention. In some cases, it would take a half dozen of those "beauties" combined to add up to an average intellect.

My preference is and will always be a woman who has a well thought out position which she can articulate succinctly and defend rationally. That's why I come here every day; and, why I will continue to do so.

I don't quite grasp the fixation with weight. If a woman looks good, it doesn't matter how much she weighs.

It's not fair that some people are fatter than others. We should have a minimum weight law to lessen the disparity between the lean and the thin.

You are the woman Instapundit described as a "Total Babe" as I recall.

May I recommend not the treadmill, but free weights? The reasons are as follows:

I guarantee that weight training will not turn you into a "breasted Schwarzenegger," unless you really want it to. And then you have to take steroids. And abandon blogging. And eat insane diets.

As for the Ipecac, while I don't advocate the introductory use of force, the best thing to do with it is to slip it into James' food.

Is it too late to add to the chorus of "Jane is physically and intellectually drop-dead gorgeous"?

Because I do hate being late to the party... :)

Could anyone enlighten an antipodean reader as to what "ipecac" might be?

And yes, the divine Ms Galt is, well, divine.

Ipecac, or more properly "syrup of ipecac", is an extraction from a Brazilian shrub. It used to be fairly common in households with small children, for use as an emergency medicine. Ipecac's a spectacular emetic, so if Junior Galt ate a bottle of vitamins, a dose of ipecac would bring them back up.

Doctors in the US are fairly wary of it these days; ipecac has fallen out of favor and been generally replaced by activated charcoal. Heck, even activated charcoal can't be given these days by my local county's EMTs -- too much risk of an airway compromise. They want to get the patient to the hospital first.

Maybe we should have a contest for this sort of thing: Nastiest Thing Ever Said To Us On A Blog, or somesuch.

Please, no. That would be a hole-digging exercise which never finds bedrock. You might eventually create an active volcano, but that's about it.

Maybe we should have a contest for this sort of thing: Nastiest Thing Ever Said To Us On A Blog, or somesuch.

My life has been threatened a few times due to my blogging. Can anyone top that?

James

While firmly in the JG is hot camp, I have to deplore the misanimist strain of male narcissistic exceptionalism that has peppered certain comments. Both genders rate individuals of the other. Both assume that, if they are attracted to someone, that someone must be attracted to them. Except as a vehicle for wasting time, it has little use, since, unless you actually have the chance of romantic involvement, it doesn't lead anywhere. Rather than succumb to the "man may have a potbelly that rivals an aircraft carrier, b.o. that deflects radar, and three greasy strands of hair that, when combed forward, looks from above like an egg in the grasp of a giant spider, but still consider himself borderline Antonio Banderas" sexism that seeks to chronicle JG's affront in a long line of misogyny, let's recognize the situation for what it is: a person for reasons of their own decided to hurt JG, chose physicality, which, to my dismay, actually worked. Hopefully, the outpouring of support since has convinced JG that it is only one person's opinion and not worth the study that some forty comments have made it.

Jeff B. -
IINM, the sale of Ipecac has been restricted because it was the method of choice for bulemics.

I'm 4'3" in my goldfish-tank platform boots but I'm a smooth talker so it evens out.

While firmly in the JG is hot camp, I have to deplore the misanimist strain of male narcissistic exceptionalism that has peppered certain comments. Both genders rate individuals of the other. Both assume that, if they are attracted to someone, that someone must be attracted to them. Except as a vehicle for wasting time, it has little use, since, unless you actually have the chance of romantic involvement, it doesn't lead anywhere.

Bingo...

I had the good fortune to meet Ms. McArdle during her oh-so-brief sojourn in Los Angeles, and my immediate reaction to her was to observe that she's an excellent case study in the importance of rifling in the structure of human bones, because without it, I'd fully expect the difference in gravitational pull at her head and her feet to result in breakage. She is very tall, and very slender.

All women think they could benefit by losing a few pounds. This is a scientific fact, like gravity. Rude James insult was quite biting though; I doubt a "you're fat" comment would've prompted an entire post in response from our estimable Ms. Galt.

BMI is calculated based on a person's height squared, which assumes that a person of ideal weight is of constant thickness, regardless of height. Using an exponent of 3 instead of 2 in the formula would seem to be preferrable, but in practice it isn't - taller people should not be as thick in proportion to their height as short people. An exponent somewhere around 2.5 is probably best, but that gets harder to calculate.

1. There is in most of us a psychological Achille's heel, an ancient and protected soft spot in our self-image, or a chronic wound left over from childhood that can quickly resurface in just the right circumstances. Some people are quite good at finding the right choice of words that immediately disarm you (the charmer) or destroy you (the creep). Such persons are usually without conscience, and probably simply evil. Their intent is to harm, and they are easily recognized because after you are mishandled by them you invariably ask, "How could they do that?"

2. I am a physician and, having reviewed the data and photographic evidence, can state with a high degree of medical certainty that Ms. McArdle is not just beautiful but gorgeous, and rather close to being too thin.

3. Isn't all that blog chivalry (above) sorta neat?

Jane, you're underweight. Add some pounds, take up weight conditioning. Get yourself a large, friendly dog and take him for long walks. That'll take care of the osteoperosis. :)

Worst thing anybody's said about my place? "Your blog isn't very interesting." Lord, spare me from uninformative critiques.

Sheesh, I'm the only one who thought James's comment was funny. I guess I should take things more seriously. :-/

This blog is written by and commented upon by some of the brightest and most thoughtful people I have encountered on weblogs. Those who find it not "very interesting" are probably overwhelmed by the content and comments. I am underwhelmed by their lack of interest.

Jane, I've met you and you are not overweight. (You're actually very pretty, but that's another story.) And yes, Jayson, I thought James' remark was funny, albeit very rude.

you look good to me jane...

but please don't shave your head

All I can say after looking at the picture Bob Dobalina linked is that I approve of your taste in computer speakers, as I have the same harman/kardon set on my desk.

I am a good five inches shorter than Jane, and around the same weight (though because I've got runner's legs, people continually underestimate my weight by thirty pounds or more.) So I've got one question for Jane:

Where on earth do you find clothes that fit?

Seriously, if I get shirts that fit my body, they end several inches up my wrist from where they are supposed to, and if they're long enough in the sleeve they're extremely baggy. Plus the shoulder seam is too short. I can't even get slacks, due to a weird genetic combo that means my hips are a voluptuous petite (!) while my legs are definitely in the tall category.

All in all, it is very difficult for me to look any other way than fundamentally badly tailored, and I've always been curious as to how taller women managed.

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